Sex, Lies and a Better Politics

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sex, scandal and public life. The former deputy PM Barnaby Joyce and the ex-Labor MP Emma Husar sit on different sides of the political divide. Tonight, they’ve come together to talk about when politics gets personal. Welcome to Q+A.

Hey, there. I’m here with high school student Sophie Watson, who’s got our first question tonight. Answering all of your questions: the Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce; author and feminist Jane Caro; in Perth, former Labor MP Emma Husar; independent Member for Indi, Helen Haines; and later in the program we’ll be joined live from the Netherlands by historian and author Rutger Bregman – his new book, Humankind, argues that most of us, underneath all the bad behaviour, are actually pretty decent. Please make all of them feel welcome.

Sophie, your question.

SOPHIE WATSON

As a young female, how do I learn to lead from politicians when we continually see topics of misconduct occurring in our parliament?

HAMISH MACDONALD

And before we go to the panel, I think you were thinking about politics. How does all of this stuff shape what you want to do with your future?

SOPHIE WATSON

It definitely has made me think over the last few weeks, is it something I really want to be doing? I think we’ve seen a lot of misogynistic comments and issues with...surrounding women in parliament, and it really does make a young female wonder, is it really the right path for me, and what do I really want to do? Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Emma Husar, I want to start this off with you. How do you respond to that?

EMMA HUSAR, FORMER LABOR MP

Sophie, thanks for the question. Certainly, after the treatment that I received two years ago at the hands of the media and the misogynistic forces of the Labor Party, I had lots of young women reach out to me, including a niece that was studying to be in politics, was studying to go down that path, who just said, “I just can’t do this. Why would I?” I was asked by Leigh Sales at the time, which was two years ago, if I would encourage women to come into politics, and certainly after the treatment that I was subject to – and certainly what we’ve seen over the last week play out – women are held to a completely different set of standards. We’re told, by...by the completely different set of ways in which the media has handled what was aired on Four Corners and, obviously, Barnaby’s case as well, is that women will be judged by a different set of standards. They will be told to abide by a different set of rules than the men.

JANE CARO, AUTHOR AND NOVELIST

Mm.

EMMA HUSAR

And I think, for young women, and for all women, that that...that is a completely disappointing position to be in. It’s 2020, and whilst we still march forward and make some...some, you know, pathways for...for equality, we still have a massive way to go. Sophie, if you were my daughter – and I do have two – I certainly wouldn’t encourage you to do anything I wouldn’t encourage my own daughters to do, and after what I went through, it’s certainly not something that I would willingly push them into. And as disappointing as that is... Because women need to be there, we need to be at those decision-making tables. It’s...it’s disappointing. But if the Liberal Party are saying that these men, Alan Tudge, Barnaby – the Nationals – and Christian Porter are meritorious selection, we’ve got a problem.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Emma, I’m just interested to know how you’ve watched the events of the last week, and how you compare where you’ve ended up in life – you’ve moved to Western Australia – with Barnaby, with Christian Porter, with Alan Tudge. Does it seem fair to you?

EMMA HUSAR

No. It’s completely unjust. What I went through, I had media cameras that, you know, parked out the front of my house for weeks on end while I had young children inside. I was chased across my front lawn with a camera and a mic shoved in my face, asking if I was n slut and if I was Sharon Stone. I moved out of my house for a period of weeks. I was the subject of loads and loads of ridicule and trolling and horrendous threats and intimidation online. And then, of course, like, moving to Perth was an option to leave that community behind, where I was...I felt like I was in a fishbowl. Everybody was kind and generous to me, but lots of people would...would sort of want to rehash the story in...in the streets.

So, Monday’s airing of that episode is completely traumatic, ‘cause it goes back and it digs up all of that stuff that happened to me. But it is incredibly galling to watch these men continue in their jobs. Continue to go forward and to “lead” our country, when... You know, in Tudge’s case, I guess he got caught with his pants down. Barnaby is the same. The jury is still out on Porter, but... Mine was all over innuendo, and there was, you know, a man that was wielding that agenda because I’d fired him. A man who felt privileged, who felt like he was entitled to his job, even though he was underperforming. Didn’t get his way in Fair Work, didn’t get his way when he tried to extort me, and then so went down the path of, you know, getting the media to be complicit in his actions, which, you know, has had lasting ramifications on my life. And I’ve not worked since.

You know, I’ve... I’m probably not ready to talk about the impact that it’s had on my mental health at this point, but the toll it’s taken has been immense, and I don’t think that I would want anyone to go through it, so I’m certainly not wishing that on those men, but certainly asking, what the hell is this, you know? We can’t...we can’t put a woman out there and hang her out to dry on rumour and innuendo when we’ve got behaviour that is clearly outside at least some standard of basic integrity going on while we allow this to happen to a woman.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby, is there a different set of standards for a man and a woman here?

BARNABY JOYCE, NATIONALS MP FOR NEW ENGLAND

Well, first of all, I’m sort of disappointed with Emma pointing her invective at me. I’ve done nothing but support Emma in what happened to her. I don’t know anything about Emma’s life, and Emma most certainly doesn’t know anything about mine. So, what I could say is I don’t know about the personal issues surrounding Emma. I think she was treated incredibly poor...poorly.

EMMA HUSAR

But you didn’t call that out at the time, Barnaby. Like, I remember your party and the government of the day weaponising what I was going through and making it worse. Like, it’s fine to sit here now and say that, you know, you’re apologetic, but if...

BARNABY JOYCE

No, I’m not apologetic.

EMMA HUSAR

...you don’t call it out as it goes through...

BARNABY JOYCE

Emma. Emma. You have to look to your own side. And I did actually support you. You have to look to your own side, Emma, and what they said. And I completely find what they said about you, from your own side, appalling. Now, Emma, I don’t want to end up in a debate with you. I think we should be debating the issues. I think this is an issue where I’m probably different to you, Emma, in that I’ll accept my...that I did something that was wrong, I would say – morally wrong, in that my marriage breaking down – but that is not a judgement for another politician. If it’s illegal, it’s a judgement for the police. If it’s something else, it’s a judgement for a priest or a pastor, but it’s not a judgement for another politician.

I’ve always tried to state that... People will talk about later on, power imbalance, and for me, I think it’s one of age, agency and consent. And we’ve got to accept that the biggest one there is agency, and that’s the capacity for you to say no, or the capacity for another person to say no, and for a capacity for them to mean it, and for a capacity for them not to be badgered on it. And if you cross that bridge of age, agency and consent, then it’s not the job of another politician or a person who’s not the police or some sort of moral guidance counsellor to be in judgement of you. Now, I’m not in judgement of you, Emma. I do find it a little bit galling that you open your sort of narration with one of sort of the meritorious selection of myself, because I most certainly never, ever did that to you.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby, is it clear to you why you lost your job as Deputy Prime Minister whilst, almost simultaneously, Christian Porter was promoted? Because that’s the question that has been raised after last week’s appearance by Malcolm Turnbull here and on Four Corners.

BARNABY JOYCE

That’s a very fair question. And I believe that I do not want anybody flushed down the toilet like I or Vikki was flushed down the toilet. Emma just said that she had to...was chased across the lawn. I was locked in my house. I was the front page, not for days, for...for...I would say for months, in one part or another. I had to have my dinner...

EMMA HUSAR

(LAUGHS)

BARNABY JOYCE

Just wait, Emma. Wait, Emma.

EMMA HUSAR

Sure.

BARNABY JOYCE

I had to have my dinner put through the back fence, literally pushed through a fence, so we could eat in our house. And...and I don’t want anybody to be treated like that again. I don’t want Emma to be treated like that. I don’t want Christian to be treated like that. I don’t want Alan to be treated like that. I don’t want any other human being to be treated like that, because it’s outrageous. And although... But the thing is, I...I...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can you just be clear, Barnaby, what...?

BARNABY JOYCE

...I wasn’t supported by the Prime Minister. Alan and Christian were supported by...

EMMA HUSAR

You didn’t deserve to be treated... You didn’t deserve to be treated in any other way.

BARNABY JOYCE

Hang on. That’s a real...

EMMA HUSAR

This comes down to a question of integrity.

BARNABY JOYCE

That’s a really value judgement, Emma. Why do you say that I deserved to be treated like that? I don’t want to know why...why you or…should or shouldn’t be treated like that. I think you shouldn’t. But why would you say, Emma, that you come out there and say, “You deserve to be treated like that”?

EMMA HUSAR

Because we’re talking... We’re talking about something entirely different, Barnaby. You know, in your case, you know, it goes to the question of integrity. You went to your electorate with Natalie and the girls on your corflutes. And, you know...

BARNABY JOYCE

No, I didn’t. I didn’t, actually.

EMMA HUSAR

...you campaigned on family values.

BARNABY JOYCE

I didn’t actually, Emma. You’re wrong there.

EMMA HUSAR

OK.

BARNABY JOYCE

In my last election, I was absolutely...Natalie and the girls, who I love dearly, were not with me, so you’re wrong on that one. I think it’s really... I’m really quite disappointed, Emma, that you would say that...that I deserved to be... I’m out here defending you, and you’re...you’re...

EMMA HUSAR

Well, that’s OK. You’re allowed to be disappointed. I’m disappointed in your behaviour.

BARNABY JOYCE

Oh, Emma.

EMMA HUSAR

And it goes to a point of integrity, Barnaby, and it’s different. So, you and Alan and Christian Porter – there are people, there are witnesses that have come forward, and they were investigated. There is absolutely no question of doubt that you have acted with, you know, maybe a lack of integrity or a lack of judgement.

BARNABY JOYCE

OK, Can you explain...? No, Alan...

EMMA HUSAR

You were married at the time. That’s fine. But then we come over to...

BARNABY JOYCE

No, no. Emma, it’s really important...it’s really important you just point out exactly what you mean by that. Because, yes...

EMMA HUSAR

I will, if you let me finish! (LAUGHS)

BARNABY JOYCE

..my marriage broke down, and I just want to know where your issue is with that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think... I’d like to bring in Helen Haines at this point in time, because you’re also a serving politician. You’re relatively new in the parliament. If we just reflect on the individuals that have been sort of named, identified recently, but also Barnaby and Emma, is it clear to you why Alan Tudge and Christian Porter are still in their positions, still have their portfolios, Barnaby is no longer the deputy prime minister, and Emma is not even in parliament? Is there a clear standard that is being applied to all of these cases to test the claims and to make a decision on the merits of those claims?

HELEN HAINES, INDEPENDENT MEMBER FOR INDI

Hamish, I want to bring it right back to Sophie, who raised this question. And I can see her shaking her head at the interchange here, and at the hurt, at the dismay, at the bad blood. And it’s all of those things that dissuade young women from entering politics. And Emma’s story... Emma’s story is...is horrendous. And I could see you listening to this, thinking, “Oh, well, there it is – my decision’s made.”

Hamish, you make the point about a set of standards. There is no code of conduct or set of standards that parliamentarians sign on to when they enter parliament. I was really shocked by that. I’ve spent nearly 40 years in the workforce before I entered parliament, and pretty much every other workforce I’ve been in, there’s been a code of conduct and a set of standards by which you need to measure yourself against. There’s also been clear mechanisms if you stray from that, how that’s handled, and this is what I see as missing in this. I think... I don’t think we need a prescriptive set of what we can and cannot do. We need a fundamental set of values and principles, which...that we are measured against, and then there are universal consequences. Which is what Emma’s pointing out here, is that the consequences aren’t universal, and many of them are gendered.

I want to say to you, Sophie, that I look at you and I can hear the intelligence in your voice and the interest that you have to engage in politics, and I want to see a politic whereby women thrive. I think we need to be held to very high levels of account. I truly do. It’s a difficult job to be a member of parliament, and Emma and Barnaby have had their lives played out in the media. That’s been really ugly and awful and damaging. But I think, if we had a parliamentary set of standards and a code – and I’ve introduced such a bill to the parliament on 26 October – with a parliamentary standards commissioner that goes with it, someone that can investigate and do something about this outside of trial by media.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Caro?

JANE CARO

Sophie, you have to go into politics. I’m sorry, you don’t have a choice here. You have to. Because the only way we’re going to change this is by having more women in parliament, by having more women at the decision-making table. The reason that men get away with this behaviour – and I’m not going to name any names or point any fingers at anyone in particular – is because it is a boys’ club, and we do not have enough women in power making these decisions and changing the culture. Because when we get more diverse people in politics, that’s the way culture will change. So, I’m sorry, Sophie. You put your hand up in public, and I’m here to tell you, however painful it may be, you have to do it.

Every woman who has faced up to the dangers, the risks, the difficulties, the insults, the jibes, the things that happen... I mean, I was absolutely devastated today that hear...to hear that Rachelle Miller, who was the brave whistleblower in the Four Corners, turned up to the new job she thought she had today to be told that they were reconsidering her employment because of her media appearances. This is the boys circling the wagons. This is how it works. This is how the women who speak up are silenced. And women watch it, and they shut up too. And that’s why it goes on and it goes on.

And the problem is, with agency…is, if you’re a young woman in any corporate or political situation, and a man with power puts the hard word on you, I can tell you exactly what goes through your head. You don’t want to do it, but if you say, “I don’t want to do it,” he’s going to queer your pitch for the rest of your working life. So, you have to find a way to say to him... (LAUGHS AFFECTEDLY) ...do that dance, you know, where you don’t do what he wants you to do, but you help him to save face because, otherwise, you know he will punish you for what you do. And this will not change...

BARNABY JOYCE

Can I...can I answer that?

JANE CARO

...until we have as many women in positions of power as we have posi...men. And as many mediocre women in positions of power as we have mediocre men. They don’t need to be exceptional. The men aren’t.

BARNABY JOYCE

Listen, I completely agree with Jane. I completely agree with Jane.

JANE CARO

(GASPS, LAUGHS)

BARNABY JOYCE

So... So, there you go. If you feel that you...that...in agency, that you don’t have the capacity to say, “Go away,” Sophie, or, “Stop that,” or if they’re badgering and they persist, you should be able to call in the cavalry and take them to task. Absolutely 100%. But, Sophie, you should... My daughter’s actually involved with politics, and I had dinner with her tonight. I reckon it’s an incredible, incredible profession and an incredible service to the public. But what I don’t want is, if you’ve ever read George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four... I... Well, you should. It’s a brilliant book, OK? If you read about Winston and Julia, you don’t want the state to be telling Winston and Julia how to live.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, Barnaby...

BARNABY JOYCE

It’s Winston and Julia’s choice.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby, has...

JANE CARO

That’s a long bow.

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, it’s not really, Jane.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Has anyone ever called in the cavalry, as you describe it, on you? Has that ever happened to you?

BARNABY JOYCE

I think that most people have... Look, I’m... Well, first of all, in a condition of agency, I think that my office staff were always incredibly happy. I had one of the longest contingency of people who stayed with me. In fact, even right now, in my office, I’ve got... If you add up all the years they’ve lived in...within service, in the public service and in my office, it’s one of the greatest in Australia. I mean, it’s... You know, and I... It’s... I always tried to make sure that I had chain of command and my discussions were with my chief of staff, and the chief of staff disseminated that to other staff.

And people look at something and they try to... I don’t know how they get it. Like, I’ve got two kids. You know? It’s... This wasn’t some sort of flippant, off-the-cuff thing. It was... You know? And people say, “Oh, there was something evil. There was something, you know...you know, adversarial. There was something that was exploitive.” Look, if it was exploitative, we would have broken up.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

BARNABY JOYCE

But we weren’t, you know?

HAMISH MACDONALD

That leads us to our next question.

BARNABY JOYCE

No-one can accept that. No-one wants to accept that. They just don’t want to accept it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want to take our next question on that point. It’s from Sue Langston.

SUE LANGSTON, TAMWORTH, NSW

Is it wrong for a boss to have sex with an employee, given the power differentials and the potential for problems? Even if it’s mutual attraction, should the boss be expected to say no?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby?

BARNABY JOYCE

I wonder who that was directed to! The answer is no, and this is where I’m way out of line with, you know, corporate Australia. And I go back to that Orwellian theory. You know, Julia and Winston are not to be determined how...whether they like each other by the state. It’s part of my belief. If Julia feels she’s being exploited by Winston, badgered by Winston, sure, take Winston to court. But you can’t have the state as the determinant of whether two people like each other or not. I... Where are we going to stop? If we want to do that, will we go into our sexuality? Where do you want to stop this? And I just think that... I just believe in the freedom of the individual to...to do as...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But shouldn’t the women...

BARNABY JOYCE

...their heart desires.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Shouldn’t women have the freedom to go to work without having to worry about their boss hitting on them?

BARNABY JOYCE

I 100% agree with you, and if... But human beings being the way human beings are, the moment someone says, “No. I’m not interested. Don’t do that,” that’s it – that’s where it stops.

JANE CARO

Mm. If only it did.

BARNABY JOYCE

But, you know... But if... And that...that is the differentiation.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What’s wrong with Barnaby’s argument, Jane?

JANE CARO

Well, basically, the problem is that, by and large in our society to this day, most bosses are men, and most of the employees and subordinates who would be in this situation are women. Not all of them, but most of them. And the problem with that is freedom is really hard to have if the power between the two people who are in the relationship is not equal.

BARNABY JOYCE

Then they don’t have agency.

JANE CARO

Exactly. And so the problem with bosses sleeping with their employees is... And we’ve seen it time and time again in corporate life, in politics, in everything you can think of...

BARNABY JOYCE

And it’ll be there forever.

JANE CARO

...it’s always the woman who ends up trashed. I mean, you know, here’s Emma – hasn’t worked since she left. Here’s Rachelle, losing the job she thought she had. The problem is that the woman... If the love doesn’t work out, and most loves don’t – it’s lovely that yours did, but most don’t, particularly in that situation – then, unfortunately, it seems to be always the woman that pays the price. I’ve heard so often people say, “She’s going to ruin his career.” I’m yet to see many men whose careers have actually been ruined. I’ve seen a hell of a lot of women who’ve had to leave the country, who’ve had to get other jobs, whose whole working life and ambition has been ruined.

BARNABY JOYCE

But, Jane, I agree with you, and that’s wrong, right?

JANE CARO

Yeah, but, unfortunately...

BARNABY JOYCE

That’s wrong. But you can’t then say, then, ipso facto, we can never...that human beings from this point forward will act differently to what they did...

JANE CARO

Well, no-one’s actually trying... No-one’s...

BARNABY JOYCE

...to what they did in Aztec temples.

JANE CARO

No-one’s actually...

BARNABY JOYCE

As long as we’ve got two people who are attracted to each other...

JANE CARO

No-one’s actually trying to say that, from this point on, no human beings are ever allowed to be attracted to each other. But I think that if a boss and an employee find themselves in that situation, it is beholden to the boss to first of all disclose this publicly to his employer, or her employer, to make this clear and above board, and to make sure that, therefore, the organisation can take steps to change the dynamic. Because one of the other problems that happen, if you’ve got a romance in an office situation, is other people working around who don’t know who to talk... Who’s getting favours? Who’s getting promoted over someone else? Who’s getting opportunities? It’s very messy in the workplace.

BARNABY JOYCE

OK, can I just...?

HELEN HAINES

But I think this is the point, isn’t it?

EMMA HUSAR

Can I...can I comment?

HELEN HAINES

It’s about... It’s not about making a moral judgement.

JANE CARO

No!

HELEN HAINES

This is about a workplace. And this is about workplace standards. And I think the point Jane makes is a very reasonable one. Whichever way you look at it, things can go awry...

BARNABY JOYCE

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

HELEN HAINES

...in such a situation, and we need to create a workplace whereby we actually get on with the job that we’re meant to be doing. And for every second that we talk about this, we’re not actually doing the work that the Australian people want us to do in the parliament, and that really disturbs me. So, I think we do need some structural mechanisms to make sure that we have, A, a safe workplace... That’s fundamental. There should never be sexual harassment that goes unchecked. We absolutely need to have a process for that. But likewise, if, as you say, Barnaby, there is mutual attraction – these things happen – then make the right steps.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, I... Helen, I...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Hugh Marks, the boss of Nine, who has stepped down this weekend – did he do the right thing? He’d had...was in...is in a relationship with a former colleague. She’s left the business, as it’s been reported. There’s no question about harassment or consent or any of those sorts of things. He’s left the job because of that relationship. Is that what he needed to do?

EMMA HUSAR

I think... I think we’re seeing corporate Australia are going to start to take the lead on this kind of behaviour. And I think that, in the case with our parliamentarians, and the males that have been on Four Corners and what have you, they’ve been married. Men and women will fall in love at work. You know, if you go and survey half the country and ask people where they met, by and large, a lot of people meet in the workplace.

Catharine Lumby had a really good article this week, talking about what should happen when you do find yourself in that situation. I think, when we talk about the men in politics that we’ve...you know, that have been in the media this week, they are married men, so there is a different...there is a different set of integrity and a different set of eyes that we’re looking at those relationships with. When it comes to bosses and that power imbalance, that’s...it is critical that those things are managed, and managed appropriately.

Hugh Marks stepped down, but what I did notice from that reporting, again, which we talked about at the beginning of the show. is the way Alexis was, you know, a massive photograph in the paper – her photo, you know, adorned three-quarters of that page – and his head shot was the only thing that we saw of him. So again, we’re saying, you know, “Here’s this woman, she’s had this relationship and we’re going to hold her out as the responsible one.” And it was the same in Vikki’s case, who I have a lot of admiration for, where that photo by The Daily Telegraph of her being pregnant, as though this was all her responsibility. So we’re seeing, you know, three...two years ago, when that came out, Vikki is held up as the person who should be, you know, accountable for this. And then the same on the weekend, with the Hugh Marks case.

I think that, and I said as much as this in the opinion piece that I wrote last week, we’re going to start to see other areas of Australia – the NRL, dare I say it – have a better code of conduct than what we hold our nation’s leaders to. And that is really, really disappointing.

BARNABY JOYCE

Can I just say, in promulgating your argument, you sort of fall over in the first section of your thesis. That is, you say that...

EMMA HUSAR

Of course I do! (LAUGHS)

BARNABY JOYCE

Hang on... Just wait up, Emma. Just... Where... When you say that there must be a disclosure, as Helen said... And there was inferred in there that the guy needs to disclose it. What about...

JANE CARO

The boss.

BARNABY JOYCE

What about the woman’s right to say whether she wants it disclosed or not? We seem to have completely ignored that bit.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright.

JANE CARO

In the workplace, I think it has to be disclosed. Anything secretive...

BARNABY JOYCE

So who discloses it? Who’s respons...?

JANE CARO

The boss. The person with the power.

BARNABY JOYCE

So the boss has to disclose it?

JANE CARO

Yeah. I think so.

BARNABY JOYCE

Against the right of the woman, whether she wants it disclosed?

JANE CARO

Well... Or they have to work it out some... Or they have to end the relationship.

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, hang on – how do you do that?

JANE CARO

They have to do it... Because it can’t continue...

BARNABY JOYCE

What right do...what right does the woman have?

JANE CARO

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

BARNABY JOYCE

What... What right...?

JANE CARO

...when first we practise to deceive!

BARNABY JOYCE

No, no. You’ve got to answer the question. What right does a woman have?

JANE CARO

I don’t have answer your question. You’re not asking the questions. These people are.

BARNABY JOYCE

What right does the woman have to disclose it or not?

JANE CARO

She can disclose it if she wants to, or not. But the boss has...

BARNABY JOYCE

But if he discloses it...

JANE CARO

Hang on. Whoa. Barnaby. Barnaby. Barnaby.

BARNABY JOYCE

...she’s obviously disclosed it for her, hasn’t she?!

JANE CARO

Barnaby, you do need to let people answer your questions...

BARNABY JOYCE

I’m letting you answer.

JANE CARO

...if you’re going to ask them. So the que...the answer to that is, if the boss is a boss, and is employed in that position, they have a duty of care to their staff. So, they actually have a responsibility, both to the people they employ, and to the people who employ them. That is their job, to disclose it.

BARNABY JOYCE

So they disclose... So, Jane, they disclose it over the woman’s right to say, “I don’t want do disclose it”?

JANE CARO

No, they... Or they say, “Or the relationship ends. Either we can be...”

BARNABY JOYCE

Hang on. Hang on, Jane. Can you...

JANE CARO

“...open and honest about this, or it ends.”

BARNABY JOYCE

Can you please answer to me, what is a woman’s right...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby...

BARNABY JOYCE

...in whether it’s disclosed to not?

HAMISH MACDONALD

I’m going to pull you up there, Barnaby.

JANE CARO

As an employee, in an affair with her boss, he has a duty of care to his employer and his employees. It needs to be disclosed. She can disclose it too...

BARNABY JOYCE

So bugger her – just disclose it?

JANE CARO

No!

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, folks, we’ve got a guest standing by in the Netherlands.

JANE CARO

It’s complicated. (LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

His name’s Rutger Bregman. He’s listening in to this rather extraordinary conversation...

JANE CARO

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

HAMISH MACDONALD

...from a very long way away. What do you make of the discussion you’re hearing tonight?

RUTGER BREGMAN, HISTORIAN, UTRECHT, THE NETHERLANDS

Well, it really makes me think about the power of shame. There’s one really worrying phenomenon in modern politics that, you know, I often like to call survival of the shameless, where, somehow the people who don’t really feel shame anymore come out on top. And almost always, you know, they’re men. If you think about human nature, it’s really unique that we have this ability to feel shame. We’re one of the only animals in the whole animal kingdom with the ability to blush, for example. But then, if you think about our political leaders, or our corporate leaders, well, you can’t really imagine them blushing anymore.

So, yeah, I think we really need to have this fundamental discussion about shame, because on the one hand we see this toxic shaming of quite vulnerable people, and on the other hand we see a whole political class who just can’t be shamed anymore. You know, we can’t even imagine them blushing anymore. So, I think that’s sort of the deeper question here.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take...

EMMA HUSAR

And I think, in my case – sorry – just to go on what Rutger was saying, is that this slut-shaming that I sued for and that Sarah Hanson-Young sued for in the same year, in our workplaces, is used to undermine women. And I agree that silence is the oxygen of shame. So when you can’t speak up, and when you can’t go forward… And, certainly over my career in the Labor Party, I took...I took forward many complaints of being slut-shamed in public in those public hallways, well before it even reached the front page. I took it to general secretaries, I took it to the leader of my caucus. I took it to the Deputy Opposition Leader at the time. Because I said, “This has to stop. It has to stop. It can’t go on. All of this is rumour. It’s innuendo. None of it is true.” And there was nothing of which...could be done.

Now, two of those blokes that were involved in that shaming and in that undermining of me and my career have gone on to be promoted within the Labor Party, which is, you know, just an absurd way for our progressive party in this country to be treating the women that it so readily invites into, you know, take those seats at the table. And until we figure out how to do that, Rutger’s right – we’re going to have a group of...a cohort of people that are completely shameless, and it...by and large it seems to favour the fellas. But I will point out Michaelia Cash’s absolute incredible slur in the Senate when she sort of, you know, cast aspersions over every single woman that worked for the Leader of the Opposition at the time.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

EMMA HUSAR

So, I think that that’s...it’s a really important distinction.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want to take our next question. It comes from Monique Dixon.

MONIQUE DIXON

Rutger Bregman talks about how we humans are actually full of altruism and cooperation during tough times, and that we are fundamentally decent. But I question this whole logic, because if you – to quote Rutger – zoom out and have a look at the world and the countries and populations most affected by COVID-19, and simultaneously which groups have suffered financially versus those that have been advantageous, does it not highlight that these areas of pandemics actually create more divide within society and between countries?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Rutger Bregman.

RUTGER BREGMAN

Mm-hm. Well, there’s certainly a lot of evidence for that. What my point here is that there’s a lot of evidence that in times of crises, such as a pandemic, or also think of a natural disaster, for example, an earthquake or a tsunami, that people don’t start looting and plundering. We’re not, deep down, all selfish. But we actually start cooperating, cooperating on a massive scale. Most of us, at least, you know. I believe that most people are pretty decent, but power corrupts. You know? That goes back to the earlier conversation. So, yes. There are...there is evidence of people...I don’t know, in the first few months hoarding toilet paper and that kind of stuff. It’s a bad thing. You shouldn’t do that. But if we zoom out a little bit, then I think that we see that most people cooperated and, you know, were willing to quite radically adjust their lifestyle to stop the virus from spreading further. And that’s the headline to me – this massive amount of cooperation.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But how then do you explain what’s happened in the United States, where you’ve seen, you know, violence break out on the streets, you’ve seen, really, the democratic process falter – obviously not just because of COVID, but in this broader environment in which politics and society has not managed to get on top of a challenge like this?

RUTGER BREGMAN

Mm-hm. Well, look, there’s an old idea in Western culture that comes back again and again, which we call veneer theory – this notion that our civilisation is only a thin layer, only a thin veneer, and that, as soon as something happens, like a crisis, or a pandemic, or a disaster, that we reveal who we really are – you know, that deep down people are just selfish. This is the ruling ideology of those at the top. It comes back again and again. Cynicism is their favourite, you know, view of the world, because if people can’t trust each other, then we need them. Then we need the kings and the queens and the career politicians and the CEOs to keep each other in check.

And therefore, it’s highly subversive to actually believe in other people and say, “Hey, wait a minute. We, the people, can actually change the world.” And if you look, for example, at the US the past couple of months, the whole Black Lives Matter movement, you know, this massive... It was the biggest protest in the history of the United States. People, the vast majority of them, peacefully protesting. I think that was a sign of hope. People basically saying, you know, “We can actually change this.”

So, that is...that is, I think, what you should focus on. Indeed, those at the top want you to be cynical about other people, because if you are cynical, you know, then you need them. If we can actually trust each other, then we can move to a much more democratic, egalitarian society.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Emma, hope, optimism, everyone’s fundamentally decent – do you buy it?

EMMA HUSAR

I do. Look, I had my... I was incredibly naive when I went into parliament. And I maintain a sense of hope, even though, you know...what I’ve been through. I think that, if we lose hope, then, you know, we’ve lost...we’ve lost purpose. There is a fraction and a fragment of society that will always look to exploit where they think that they can get ahead, or where they think they can beat somebody else at their own game, which will always exist.

I had lots of conversations, when I was the MP out in Lindsay, with people who came to me with very firm and fast ideas about race, about migrants and about refugees. And by and large, what I found with engaging with those people and offering them the chance to be educated, or a different point of view, for example, that you could often – more often than not – switch that person around, or at least offer a different scenario. I think people are born generous. I think that, you know, we’re all shaped differently by our experiences. But education has a massive, massive role to play in making sure that we raise a society that is fair and just.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let me take our next question...

HELEN HAINES

Hamish, though, could I just comment? Monique, it was a really terrific question. And this year in Australia, we’ve seen two major crises. We’ve seen a bushfire crisis at the beginning of the year. And in my electorate we were smashed by that bushfire in the northern part, and I saw incredible cooperation. We saw the regions and the cities coming together with generosity and sharing. And in COVID, we’ve seen very similar, wonderful scenes of people with shared food tables, you know, crochet clubs, goodness knows what else. We’ve all heard the stories.

But I think what you’re pointing to is that, in a time of enormous crisis, it also illustrates the real fault lines in our society. And we know that our elderly population, that people who are struggling with their mental health, the loneliness that people felt – it really exposed those who are the most vulnerable.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Let me take our next question. It’s a video from Leigh Bailey in Bombala, New South Wales.

LEIGH BAILEY, BOMBALA, NSW

Mr Bregman, much like yourself, I have always believed in humankind being inherently good. I personally strive to live by virtues of kindness, compassion and selflessness. Why is it, though, that our members of parliament, and other people who gravitate towards positions of power, seem to lose track of their moral compass? In fact, it fails. Therefore, fails the people.

BARNABY JOYCE

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

LEIGH BAILEY

Why do you think this is? And how can we change this?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright, before I go to Rutger, Barnaby, I can hear you in dismay at that question.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, ‘cause it’s not right, and I said something more profane to you. But look, it’s...

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, I could hear you swearing!

BARNABY JOYCE

But it’s... Look, that’s Leigh’s view of the world. And this idea that everybody who goes into parliament is some sort of monster is garbage, going back to what Sophie said before. They’re not. They’re actually... No matter what side of the political fence they’re on, they’re ultimately driven by a sense of trying to make the world a better place. And generally what happens is, when we see that they don’t agree with our world view, we think that they’re somehow corrupt, wrong, insidious. And that is just incorrect. They mightn’t have your view, but they’re driven by their own views of where the world is going.

When I see... And you see this in politics. When people first start, they’re very tribal. They’re, “Rah-rah-rah!” You know, “I’m right and everybody’s wrong.” And it’s just like university or anywhere else. Later on, they say, “Well, I’m actually going to listen to the views of other people and I’m going to respect that they may have a different view.” And that’s the thing. I’m mates with people on the Labor side, I have been... You know, I’ve been fairly close to people in the Greens side and everywhere in between, right down to One Nation side. At the end of the day, you just accept that different people have different views and you respect that. And that’s what an egalitarian democracy does, you know.

And going back before, what was said before, that, you know, an inherent selfishness, I... That’s just an innate trait of how human life is. That’s why we’ve got every religion, whether it’s Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, they all say you have to rise above the self. You have to rise above the self. So, this is not unique. It’s going to be with us in the past, it’s with us... It was with us in the past, it’s with us now and it’ll be with us in the future. I mean, it’s just that...an inherent challenge of being human.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Rutger, this was a question for you about people reaching, attaining power and losing track of their moral compass. Do you think that happens?

RUTGER BREGMAN

Mm-hm. Well, it obviously doesn’t happen to all politicians. And obviously, there are a huge amount of politicians out there, you know, who really have ideals that they want to fight for. And, yeah, we don’t need to make simplistic generalisations here. But as I said, it is very worrying if you look at many modern democracies – whether it is Australia or the US or, you know, Bolsonaro in Brazil, or Boris Johnson in the UK – there do seem to be quite a few really powerful men who just can’t be shamed anymore.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, but I can...

RUTGER BREGMAN

So, how do you explain that?

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, I can... It’s just…

RUTGER BREGMAN

You have to go deep into psychology and look at the evidence we have, that power is a really corruptive force.

BARNABY JOYCE

It’s a banal...

RUTGER BREGMAN

They have actually...

BARNABY JOYCE

(SIGHS) Oh, my…

RUTGER BREGMAN

...neurological research that people who are under the influence of power, you know, they don’t really feel empathy anymore.

BARNABY JOYCE

What a banal, sweeping generalisation.

RUTGER BREGMAN

And somehow we have a system that selects these kind of people to...

BARNABY JOYCE

So, Barack Obama has lost his sense of moral compass?

JANE CARO

No, no he didn’t say it...

BARNABY JOYCE

Has Barack Obama...?

JANE CARO

He…

BARNABY JOYCE

No, all politicians, we’re all bad. We’re all evil people.

JANE CARO

No. No. That’s...

BARNABY JOYCE

So Barack Obama has lost his sense of…

JANE CARO

No, you’re verballing him now.

BARNABY JOYCE

No, I’m just...

JANE CARO

You’re verballing him... You’re verballing him. He said...

BARNABY JOYCE

No, I’m using an analogy...

JANE CARO

No! No. Barnaby. No.

BARNABY JOYCE

...to show how ridiculous the statement is, Jane.

JANE CARO

No! No. He said, “Of course not all politicians.”

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, he can speak for himself.

JANE CARO

That’s how he started.

BARNABY JOYCE

Unless you want to speak for him.

JANE CARO

Yeah, but... That’s how he started. And he is right. The point about the politicians who rise to the top and become corrupted, because I think it is a huge risk. As soon as you have a lot of power, people are going to start to suck up to you. They are going to start to try to reflect you back to yourself at twice your natural size. So, that becomes a temptation to believe that you know what is right.

BARNABY JOYCE

Oh, that is a huge, huge...

JANE CARO

And we do have...

BARNABY JOYCE

I agree with that, Jane.

JANE CARO

We do have a crop of particular politicians...

BARNABY JOYCE

Jane, I agree... I agree with what you say there...

JANE CARO

That’s really nice, Barnaby.

EMMA HUSAR

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) Be quiet.

JANE CARO

But… Yeah, it’s my turn to talk.

BARNABY JOYCE

Thank you. There’s a big difference between...

JANE CARO

Oh!

BARNABY JOYCE

...temptation and reality.

HELEN HAINES

I think there’s also another element to this, and that is what other external forces are at play. One of the problems I think we have in this nation, when we think about corruption or we think about being corrupted or our intentions being influenced is political donations, for example.

JANE CARO

Yes.

HELEN HAINES

You know, we don’t have transparency around political donations. That really disturbs me. I think it should disturb every Australian. I think we need much stronger legislation around that. I think we need to be asking the question, who is actually in the ear of our politicians? And I think as voters, each and every one of you, when you’re thinking about how you’re going to cast your vote, is to think about, who is the person I’m voting for? They are my local representative. Who were they before they came to parliament? Have they changed? Are they just the same? Or what else is going on with them? I think we each can ask that question and cast our vote accordingly. But, likewise, I think we need to be very alive to what other influences – what other lobbyists, what other political donations – are coming in and having an impact on the politicians that are meant to serve us all.

JANE CARO

I think you are absolutely right about political donations.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s take our next question. It comes from Musaab Al-Saleem in the studio.

MUSAAB AL-SALEEM

Hello. My question is to Rutger, but I would love to hear everybody else’s opinion. Are you optimistic? Do you believe that the current economic, political and corporate system would allow a new, fairer and more sustainable system to be born, or would it be just stillbirthed?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Rutger?

RUTGER BREGMAN

You know, I’m not an optimist, but I’m not a pessimist either. To me, optimism sounds a little bit like complacency where you say, “You know, things will turn out to be alright. Don’t worry. The future will be rich and happy.” But you don’t have to be a pessimist either. I think you can be hopeful about the future. Hope is about the possibility of change, and it impels you to act. Now, again, if we zoom out a little bit, and if we look at what’s been happening in the past 10 years, we have seen that ideas that used to be dismissed as unrealistic, unreasonable, crazy, you know, they have moved into the mainstream.

Think about higher taxes on the rich, universal basic income to completely eradicate poverty, a more activist role for the state to tackle the great threats of our time, such as climate change. I mean, 10 years ago, that was dismissed as lunacy. But now if you read... I mean, in April, there was an editorial from the Financial Times – you know, not exactly a left-wing publication, but even they said that we need to think about all these things – higher taxes on the rich, a universal basic income.

And I think that this year can be, you know, the shifting point, where everything changes. Indeed, crises, remember...make you remember really important things. They lay bare what is really wrong with societies. So, for example, we have learnt this year who the real wealth creators are. Turns out these so-called essential jobs, you know? You look at the lists that have been published around the globe, and the hedge fund managers are not on there. You know, we’re talking about teachers, nurses, care workers, you name it, who are doing the really important work.

EMMA HUSAR

Cleaners.

RUTGER BREGMAN

If they go on strike, we’re in trouble.

HELEN HAINES

That’s right.

RUTGER BREGMAN

So, I hope that this year could be a shifting year, where we move into a new Zeitgeist. And that’s also what I see when I look at a new generation. You know, there is still an old political class in power, you know, who are 50 or 60 years old. They grew up in the era of the Cold War, and that’s how they see the world – in black and white. Like, they talk about capitalism versus communism, for example.

But, again, if we zoom out, and if we look at the younger generation, at the Millennials and Generation Z, here, we have the most ethnically diverse, most progressive, most highly educated generation in the history of world that looks at things very differently, you know? When they say, “Ooh, that’s communism, that’s socialism”, we say, “Whatever.” You know? We just...are more open to new ideas. And that really gives me hope. It doesn’t make me an optimist, but it does give me hope.

BARNABY JOYCE

Disagree.

EMMA HUSAR

I said at the start of COVID, and I made a tweet, so everyone is welcome to go back... I said, finally, you know, the world might understand and learn that we live in a society first and then an economy second. And certainly, some decisions that have been made over the last, you know, nearly a year that we have been dealing with this have really put forward... And like Rutger said, you know, the list of professions that have topped that list of getting us through this crisis have not been, you know, CEOs on million-dollar wages, or politicians even. They have been the workers that have kept us all going – nurse, teachers, and cleaners.

I’m an eternal optimist, Musaab. Probably addicted, you know, to being optimistic. I think resilience is a muscle. And it is something that we all need to flex more often. It’s a shame that we don’t teach how to be resilient to children through their school years, which is something that we assume happens. But I think that, you know, moving forward, if we lose hope and lose that...our sense of optimism, but not to be naive about that either, that...that we’re all in a bit of trouble. So, I would like to look at the Gretas and the AOCs and the Arderns of the world, who are leading in the Millennial and the Gen Z space, to bring things to the decision-making table and to the powers that be to change things...

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

EMMA HUSAR

...as we go forward.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Are you optimistic, Helen Haines?

HELEN HAINES

I’m a very hopeful person, and I think that distinction is a really important one...

HAMISH MACDONALD

What is the difference?

HELEN HAINES

...as Rutger pointed out. Sometimes optimism can be a little pollyanna, if you’re not thinking about what the consequences may be on either side of an argument. But hope is about having a true belief and a true desire, actually, to solve a problem. And I think something we need to be doing a whole lot more in the body politic is around consensus building, around meeting people where they are at. It’s something I love about being a member of the crossbench, about being an independent. I often say to my colleagues in the National Party, who I sit very close to, you know, it is really easy to cross the floor...

BARNABY JOYCE

Stone’s throwing distance.

HELEN HAINES

…when you’re independent because you look at legislation on its merits. You make a decision about it. You talk to people about it. You try to find which is the best way forward.

I think the other thing about hope is that hope and trust go together really closely. And what we have been talking about very much at the beginning of this conversation tonight is an erosion of trust. And if we’re really going to embrace bold, innovative, new ideas, we need to trust in leadership, and I think very much we need to invest in young people and, if ever there’s an opportunity, I think, in the wake of this COVID crisis, we need to be doing some bold policy work around investing in young people. Maybe it’s universal, free early childhood education, so that everyone gets at the starting gate of primary school on a level playing field. They are the kind of bold things that we should be doing. I’m hopeful that we can. But we must restore faith and trust in politics altogether.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Very briefly, Jane and Barnaby. You go first, Jane.

JANE CARO

OK. I don’t know how optimistic I am at the moment. I’m seeing lots of people talking about this stuff, which I’ve heard for a very long time. What I’m watching is women sliding backwards rapidly. 86,000 less enrolments in 2020 for women and girls in universities. 400,000 women over 45 facing the very real possibility of being homeless. What I’m seeing is rights being removed. What I’m seeing is budgets that pay no attention to the stark poverty staring, particularly older, Australian women in the face. Yes, they are the nurses, the teachers, the parents, the carers, and what’s their reward for doing that? The very real chance of poverty in their old age. I’m not hopeful. I’m angry! I’m furious! I’m beside myself with anger at the way we have treated my generation of women. They are the girls I went to school with. They are my neighbours. And they are eking out an existence on that appalling, punitive Newstart or JobSeeker allowance, which is being reduced.

I can’t watch the actions of our leaders and remain hopeful and optimistic. I am hopeful and optimistic about the attitudes of the public changing. But I’m afraid I am beside myself with fury about how we ignore 51% of the population still – people of colour, people with a disability. And I’m sorry, investing in young people, in children in particular, is incredibly important, but we’ve got to stop throwing old people away and warehousing them! And ageism is something that has come to the fore in COVID like nothing else I’ve ever seen. So, I am…I’m neither optimistic or pessimistic – I’m fired by fury.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, I think you’ve made that clear!

EMMA HUSAR

Maintain the rage!

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby, very brief response, please.

BARNABY JOYCE

Don’t crap on the system that gave you the best sense of freedom since you left the cav… since we all left the cave. Look at the fear in the eyes of the people of Hong Kong, look at the premonition that’s…

JANE CARO

Or in America.

BARNABY JOYCE

I was polite for you. Please. Look at the premonition that was on the…that has to deal with Taiwan. Realise that democracy is a shrinking form of government in the globe, not an increasing form of government in the globe. For all our problems, you…we have delivered to Australia and to the rest of the world in a democratic system the greatest sense of freedoms that you have ever gotten in the history of humankind.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Rutger Bregman, it’s been great to have you part of this conversation tonight. We’re going to say goodbye to you right now. Would you please thank Rutger Bregman?

And a quick note before we take our next question – we are planning something a bit different for our final show of this extraordinary year. And we’d actually like to hear your story as part of it. How has 2020 changed you? Head to our website right now...

TITLE

abc.net.au/qanda

HAMISH MACDONALD

...and upload a short video to help us tell your story as part of our telling of this crazy year. Our next question comes from Bree Smith.

BARNABY JOYCE

Oh, we’ve got another question.

BREE SMITH

My question’s for Barnaby Joyce. So, growing up in St George, Queensland, I’ve seen the harsh effects of climate and mining on a rural landscape. How can you reconcile calling yourself and your party ‘for the farmers’, while continuing to sell out current and future farming generations’ interests to mining conglomerates?

BARNABY JOYCE

OK, that’s a very good question. Were you at Dirranbandi or St George?

BREE SMITH

In between.

BARNABY JOYCE

Rightio. OK, so, look, the big thing is, what we’ve got a big problem with is being compelled to give over private assets without payment. The big issue for us is, if a community believes there’s a benefit in issue, the community should pay for it. It shouldn’t just divest the individual of that asset. When your parents, if they’re on the land, bought a block of land, they own the trees, they own the vegetation – it was part of what they had to borrow money from the bank to pay for. Now, if the people want that, if the government wants it, it should buy it back off them, not just take it off them without payment. That is the big issue. In a lot of these issues, it’s about divestment of the individual of a private asset to be vested in the state without payment, which we inherently and absolutely explicitly disagree with, because we’ve got to pay back the money to the bank. You know, that’s the issue. We have to pay back the money to the bank. And when you talk about mining co…

HAMISH MACDONALD

Bree’s shaking her head. What are you shaking your head at?

BREE SMITH

Do you think it’s fair to take people’s livelihoods just because you want to stick, like, a couple of gas wells on their property?

BARNABY JOYCE

But when the government comes out and says, “You no longer own that, you no longer own this, you can’t do that, you can’t do this,” that’s precisely, Bree, what they’re doing to us. That is precisely what they’re doing to us! And that is the disconnect, Bree. It’s... The disconnect is, if you want something that basically divests me of an asset, and divests my family of an asset, yet leaves the debt with the bank for me to pay, and for the rates for me to pay, then I expect compensation. Now, if you had that discussion, Bree, you’re going to get a lot different outcome to just walking in and saying, “I, the government, now say that you no longer own that, I own that. But you’re going to pay the rates, you’re going to pay the bank back, you’re going to pay the insurance, you’re going to have to maintain it, but you no longer own it.” We don’t like that idea.

BREE SMITH

No, but we’re talking about the Nationals Party here.

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, why? It’s got nothing to do with the Nationals. It’s to do across the board.

BREE SMITH

No, we’re talking about the Nationals Party. Why are you advocating for fossil fuels when it detriment…it’s detrimental to farming as an industry? You’re for the farmers.

BARNABY JOYCE

But I’ve just…

BREE SMITH

We’re not talking about paying back the banks.

BARNABY JOYCE

But that’s…

BREE SMITH

We’re talking about the land. And you taking it away from people for profit.

BARNABY JOYCE

But what we’re saying there is precisely what happens to people who own land, Bree. They… The government never pays them for the asset they stole off them.

BREE SMITH

What? Your government’s doing that!

JANE CARO

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) ...climate change. I’m completely confused.

BARNABY JOYCE

They steal the asset off them, and they never pay them for it.

BREE SMITH

Are you serious?!

JANE CARO

I’m a farmer…

BARNABY JOYCE

Do you know about vegetation management laws…

JANE CARO

...I don’t know what you’re talking about.

BARNABY JOYCE

...and how they work, Bree? ‘Cause you live...

BREE SMITH

I’m aware. I’m very aware.

BARNABY JOYCE

So, what happened with vegetation management laws? What did the government do?

BREE SMITH

We’re not talking about vegetation management laws. We’re talking about mining and the Nationals Party.

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, we...

BREE SMITH

Why do you advocate for coal?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s just take the heat out of this for a moment. Helen Haines, I want to bring you in on this conversation. You also represent a regional area. I suppose this goes to a question that we hear pretty regularly. And it’s about whether or not it is actually in the interests of farmers to take the current position on climate change action that Australia takes. What do you hear from your community?

HELEN HAINES

Look, what I hear from my community is that they are at the forefront of climate change. It’s the farmers who are telling me that there’s changes in when their crops are ready to harvest. It’s our winemakers. You know, we know that farmers have the most to lose by inaction on climate change. We know that the National Farmers’ Federation have now come onboard with a net-zero emissions target by 2050. But we also know that the most tremendous opportunity is sitting there right in front of us now, in rural and regional Australia, to fully embrace with the renewable energy boom, that is coming faster than a rocket. In Barnaby’s electorate alone, $13 billion of new funding has been attracted by the New South Wales government into the renewable energy zone.

What I want to see is that rural and regional Australia finally have the opportunity to harness this as the greatest new income stream that they’ve ever seen before. I’ve put out something called the Local Power Plan – go to the website, localpowerplan.com, jump onboard. In fact, Barnaby, I’m going to introduce a private member’s bill to parliament before the year is out to establish the Australian Local Power Agency. I would like you to second that bill.

BARNABY JOYCE

Endorsed by Helen Haines, Member for Indi, Commonwealth Government, Canberra.

HELEN HAINES

Because...

BARNABY JOYCE

(CHUCKLES)

JANE CARO

(LAUGHS)

HELEN HAINES

...in real...in rural and regional Australia, what Bree is talking about is things being done to us, rather than things being done with us. I know, right across Australia, right now, if we embraced a policy that enabled rural and regional Australians to share in this energy boom, to have shares in major projects, like the Sapphire Project in northern New South Wales, who were enabled by good public policy to set up microgrids in small towns to give themselves energy security in a crisis...

BARNABY JOYCE

Helen, I’m going...I’m going to cut you...

HELEN HAINES

I’ve got policy that can help us do it.

BARNABY JOYCE

I’m going to cut you a deal on national television. I’m going to cut you a deal on national television.

EMMA HUSAR

Cut her off on national television?

BARNABY JOYCE

If... No…

HELEN HAINES

I’ve put the challenge out to Barnaby, right? Tonight.

JANE CARO

He’s done it to Emma, but not to Helen.

HELEN HAINES

This is fantastic policy for Australia.

BARNABY JOYCE

If you talk about compensation for farmers for what has been taken off them without payment, I’m absolutely all eyes and ears. Let’s talk about it.

HELEN HAINES

I’m not talking about that at all.

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, there you go.

HELEN HAINES

What I’m talking about is the incredible opportunity that rural and regional Australia have right now, if we’ve got the right policy levers to enable us to share in the renewable energy boom. Localpower.com – get on board and have a look. And, Barnaby, I really would love to talk to you about it.

BARNABY JOYCE

And I’ll move an amendment to make sure that you pay farmers for what was stolen off them without payment.

BREE SMITH

Ridiculous.

JANE CARO

Are you talking about trees, and chopping down…?

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, I’m talking about trees and vegetation.

JANE CARO

Oh! I didn’t know what the hell you were talking about. Because I’m a farmer and I’ve never felt remotely like I’ve had anything stolen off me. I don’t mind managing my trees and my grass and my waterways...

BARNABY JOYCE

You don’t believe...

JANE CARO

...in a way that maintains the environment, so that it stays clean, it stays productive.

BARNABY JOYCE

Do you believe you should own them or not?

JANE CARO

I do own them.

BARNABY JOYCE

No, you don’t.

JANE CARO

But I’m prepared...

BARNABY JOYCE

There’s a whole range of caveats...

JANE CARO

Do you know what I don’t own? I don’t own anything under this much soil. The mining industry can take that from me anytime they like, and pay me, as far as I know, nothing.

BARNABY JOYCE

No, actually, you’re incorrect in believing that you own your vegetation, ‘cause you only own it in the prescribed belief of where the government has caveats of what you can and cannot do with it.

JANE CARO

Well...

BARNABY JOYCE

And that has been imposed on you without payment.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I reckon we might leave Jane and Barnaby to talk about farm management in the green room.

JANE CARO

Can I say, climate change worries me a lot more than the government having a “caveat” over some trees!

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

HELEN HAINES

Hear, hear!

JANE CARO

As a farmer.

HAMISH MACDONALD

That is about all we’ve got time for tonight.

BARNABY JOYCE

And that’ll work well on 20 acres.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Would you please thank our wonderful and lively panel: Barnaby Joyce, Jane Caro, Emma Husar and Helen Haines. Please put your hands together.

And thanks to those of you at home and those of you here in the studio for sharing your questions, and to those of you streaming us live on iview. Well, I’m really excited to tell you that next week we’re actually doing what we love most – we’re getting back out on the road. Believe it or not in 2020! We will be live in Western Sydney. And we’d love you to join us at the Kew Theatre in Penrith. We’re leaving you tonight with a performance from Lime Cordiale here they are, performing Reality Check Please!

OLIVER LEIMBACH

Alright? This one’s called No Plans To Make Plans. This one goes out to Barnaby!

# Stressing out on the good life and feeding without delay

# Making accusations, but you’re anxious every day

# You need a break from your business schedule

# Of living five stars where you stay

# You’re making a stand, but not standing up yet

# You’re strong and of course you’re a darling

# You’re smart and you’re well-read

# You fight for what you think’s right

# But only make a difference in your head

# You need a break from your addiction

# Don’t be plugged in until you’re dead

# You’re making a stand, but not standing up yet

# You have no plans to make plans

# You have no plans that don’t directly affect you

# You have no plans to make plans

# You have no plans that don’t directly affect you

# You can hold onto your good life

# Feel better about yourself

# But dwelling on frustrations

# Just by saying that we need to help

# You need a break but you’re not broken

# It’s like a Band-Aid when you help

# You’re making a stand, but not standing up yet

# Paint pictures of perfect people

# To mould a figure you’ve conjured up

# You strut around with such conviction

# Despite what you said, haven’t yet done enough

# Somewhere along the way there

# You lost track of what life’s about

# You’re making a stand, but not standing up yet

# You have no plans to make plans

# You have no plans that don’t directly affect you

# You have no plans

# Yeah!

# To make plans

# You have no plans that don’t directly affect you

# You have no plans

# Oh!

# To make plans, to make plans

# You have no plans that don’t directly affect you

# You have no plans

# No!

# To make plans

# You have no plans that don’t directly affect you

# You have no plans

# Yeah!

# To make plans

# You have no plans that don’t directly affect you

# You have no plans to make plans

# You have no plans that don’t directly affect you. #