The Ethics of Mandatory Vaccination

DAVID SPEERS

Tonight, as the reopening approaches, how will the next phase of COVID work? What are the legal and ethical challenges of requiring proof of vaccination? And winding back income support – when is the right time? Welcome to Q+A.

Hello, and welcome to the program. I’m David Speers. We’re coming to you live from Melbourne tonight. And joining me on the panel: founder of catering and events company The Big Group, Bruce Keebaugh; ACTU secretary, Sally McManus; in Canberra, CEO of the Business Council of Australia, Jennifer Westacott; in Brisbane, emergency doctor and disability advocate Dinesh Palipana; and in Sydney, executive director of The Ethics Centre, Simon Longstaff. Great to have you all here.

And remember, you can stream us live on iview and all the socials. #QandA is the hashtag. Please join the debate. You can publish your comments, we’ll put them on screen, from Facebook, Instagram or Twitter.

Our first question tonight comes from Tom Ahearn.

TOM AHEARN, BRUNSWICK, VIC, WURUNDJERI COUNTRY

As a renter, student and out-of-work hospitality worker who relies upon the disaster payments, it’s really distressing for me and many others in the industry that have it far worse hearing that it’s getting wound back once we reach 80% vaccination. Once we reopen, at that stage of the Andrews government roadmap, I’ll be lucky to get two shifts a week. Does the panel believe that state and federal governments actually care about workers that have been impacted by the pandemic, or do ideological differences and political point scoring still remain their number one priority?

DAVID SPEERS

Sally McManus, to you first on this.

SALLY McMANUS, SECRETARY, ACTU

Well, first of all, all the hospo workers, they lost their jobs, so many of them, overnight last year, and again and again and again. And they’ve really been knocked down. And they got cut out of JobKeeper last year if they were not long-term casuals. And this year, now to be told, what was it, yesterday, that they’re going to be cut off payments when things are reopening, I think that a lot of them – and they’re right to feel like this – they’re abandoned. It’s like the government’s cutting and running, and leaving... It’s not their fault they’re in this situation. It’s not their fault that we’ve got to have limitations on the opening of things. And it’s, like, the hose can’t be turned on, you know, strong enough when it comes to, you know, Harvey Norman and JobKeeper and the money that they get, but when it comes to casual workers, it’s, like, well, as soon as they can take it off people, they will. And so I think that all the hospitality workers, and retail workers, and also events workers, really as a country, we need to be supporting them get back on their feet.

DAVID SPEERS

Well, Jennifer Westacott, I mean, clearly, these support payments have to come to an end at some point, but Tom’s question really goes to the fact that he’s not going to get many shifts at that 80% reopening mark. There are still going to be various restrictions in place – density limits and so on. Do you think it’s fair that those income supports are turned off at that point?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT, CEO, BUSINESS COUNCIL OF AUSTRALIA

Well, as you say, they do have to be turned off at some point. And look, the hospitality workers have done it really tough. And look, you know, the states have signed up to a national plan, the support payments taper off in line with that plan, but we are going to have to be flexible about these things. And what’s been the case all the way through this pandemic is state and federal governments being responsive and making sure that, you know, we correct things when they’re not working. We do have to remember that, you know, people did think that when JobKeeper was finishing that things were going to get really bad. They didn’t. The economy bounced back.

What really matters is that we safely reopen the economy so that we can get people working again, ‘cause people want to work. And it’s important that we give them that opportunity. I do believe that the... Many people tell me that there are labour shortages, that they’re keen for people to get back. But, you know, I do believe that we’ve got to always make sure that we are responsive, that we’re flexible, that we’re sensitive. And look, I think we should be really proud of the way governments have been able to sort of step in and say, “Well, that’s not working, let’s do something else.”

We are going to have to be very careful with small business ‘cause, as you say, many of them are not going to be able to get up and running to 100%. We might have to do some start-up grants, taper their assistance differently. I think with all of this, we’ve just got to do what’s practical, what’s right, but the most important thing, David, is to safely reopen the economy and get people working again.

DAVID SPEERS

Yeah, sure, but when you say flexibility is going to be required, Jennifer Westacott, I mean, what does that mean for a hospitality worker? Should there still be some income support for Tom, or should he just go on to JobSeeker?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Well, I think they’re the sorts of things that we’ve got to start working through.

DAVID SPEERS

What do you think, though?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Well, I think, if people can’t get those hours, if they’re not able to get back to work because of the restrictions that are in place, then we do need to look at those things really carefully and make sure...

DAVID SPEERS

Continuing some level of income support?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Yeah, I think so, but, you know, there is a plan to taper these things in line with the opening. And I just think that we have to be willing to sort of make sure that people don’t slip through here.

DAVID SPEERS

Yeah, I don’t know... There’s no plan from the government to taper these payments, there’s a plan to end the payments. Bruce, for a business like... Yours is the biggest...Australia’s biggest privately owned events business.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH, FOUNDER, THE BIG GROUP

Hospitality, yeah.

DAVID SPEERS

Hospit... You employ a hell of a lot of casuals. What will the ending of this support payment mean for them?

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

Well, I suppose, firstly, Tom, in answer to your question, I really feel your pain, right, because I totally understand where you’re at. And part of our hospitality, you know, circus is about young people, you know, coming through and earning some money to maybe end up doing something else. And so, JobKeeper was a really great thing, and it really helped that, but for our hospitality industry, apropos to many others, we had no revenue coming in whilst JobKeeper was there. So, in many ways, many hospitality providers were merely an extension of the social services from the government. So it’s not until JobKeeper had no power for us until revenue came in.

Now, where we see this next stage, where 80% vaccination rate comes in, our industry has been locked down and has had multiple restrictions and restraint of trade for nearly 540 days. So we actually have never been able to recover from this. So, someone like Tom comes back in and yes, it’s 80%, but the density restrictions and the quotients that are there make it really difficult for us to come back to capacity. So, retail can come back quickly and, to a certain degree, construction can too, once those density limits go, but our industry is very tough. So, someone like Tom is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

That said, we have to come off this welfare nation. Like, you know, part of, you know, being Australian is getting out there working and being part of a team. And we don’t want to rely on welfare. But what must happen from government is the understanding that some industries are not the same as others. And the major event sector – live theatre, live performance – these people will not come back and have revenue until March, April or May of next year, so...

DAVID SPEERS

But we don’t really know, do we?

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

We don’t, but we must understand that some industries recover quicker than others. And black-and-white policy from government doesn’t actually lean in to support multiple industries of variance.

DAVID SPEERS

Sally McManus, when do you think these sorts of payments should end?

SALLY McMANUS

Well, I think part of the bounce-back last time was because JobKeeper meant that you kept your workers and so, immediately, you could just go to the extra hours, and those workers still had enough income. And that’s the unknown this time, so, I think...

DAVID SPEERS

The problem with JobKeeper, though, was...

SALLY McMANUS

Yeah.

DAVID SPEERS

...sure, there were businesses that needed it, but we know now there were businesses that didn’t need it.

SALLY McMANUS

They could stop the rorts and keep the good things about it. I think that you would stop payments when the jobs come back and when people have the hours they had before. It’s not hospitality workers’ fault...

DAVID SPEERS

That could be a long time, though, couldn’t it?

SALLY McMANUS

Perhaps, but, you know, businesses, we’ve got to see them survive in the long term. And it’s not the fault of those workers or those businesses that we need to have these density limits for a period of time. We’re not opening up to COVID zero. We’re opening up with cases, and so it’s a different mindset. And I am worried about it, because last time we saw a V-shaped recovery because people were already in employment and people effectively have now got two weeks to go scramble and try and find a job. So that’s going to be a big problem, I think.

DAVID SPEERS

But the other thing I just want to throw in the mix here, too, we know some states are going to keep their borders shut until beyond the 80% vaccination threshold. And today, where we are, here in Melbourne, we’ve had a big jump in case numbers to more than 1,400, and the Premier, Dan Andrews, has even suggested there may... He’s kind of hinted there may have to be a pause in the reopening plan – maybe – depending on where things go. Jennifer Westacott, to you on that. I mean, what would that mean, if the reopening that’s been announced were to be paused or changed in some way?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Well, I think we need to understand what pausing means. I mean, what’s going to be the trigger for that? What’s going to be the trigger for it to end? I mean, this stop-start, opening-closing, that is really killing people, because they can’t plan. They can’t sort of, like, “Oh, well, I’ll stock up, I’ll put my inventory back on or I’ll employ some people, I’ll tell everyone to come back,” because they don’t know whether I’m going to be going for two weeks, six weeks, two days. You know, if we’re going to do this, we need to give people much more direction than, “We might pause this.” Under what circumstances? Under what circumstances would trigger return? This is what’s really hurting small businesses, particularly businesses across the country in these lockdown areas. And it’s what’s hurting the confidence of families. It’s what’s weighing on people’s mental health. They sense there’s no light at the end of the tunnel. So if we’re going to pause, what does that mean, how do we come out of it, what are the triggers? So that people can actually plan.

DAVID SPEERS

Dinesh, let me just bring you in here. You’re an emergency department doctor there in Queensland, but, you know, as a doctor watching what’s happening here in Victoria and what’s been happening in New South Wales, should we be worried about the pressure on the hospital system as well at the moment, certainly here in Victoria?

DINESH PALIPANA, EMERGENCY DOCTOR AND DISABILITY ADVOCATE

So, I have friends in other states that work as doctors, both in COVID and outside, and the pressure has increased on them over time. And I have phone calls with them all the time saying they’ve got so many COVID patients and it’s challenging to manage. And some of these patients, particularly when they’re ventilated, require a lot of manpower and resources to keep going.

I think, around the world, we’ve seen some really difficult situations. I was reading today that Idaho, for example, has initiated their crisis standard of care, which means that they’re starting to ration health care and ration critical resources. And for people that they don’t think will survive this situation, they’re either providing a different level of care or referring them to palliative care. So that is the most extreme situation, and I think that is what’s scary.

DAVID SPEERS

How does a doctor make that decision?

DINESH PALIPANA

So, I was talking about it today with my partner, about how do we make that decision? ‘Cause you never want to make that decision, right? I’m a 37-year-old guy with a spinal cord injury, and my chances of surviving any significant respiratory infection is less than someone else, so if you had to ration it between me and an 80-year-old person, how do you decide that? I never want to be in the situation where I have to make that decision, and I think that’s what we’re trying to avoid, but it’s a heart-wrenching thing to get to that point.

DAVID SPEERS

I don’t think any of us would want to, or indeed want doctors to have to make that decision, it’s fair to say. Let’s get to our next question. It comes from Janna St Leon.

JANNA ST LEON, SURRY HILLS, NSW, GADIGAL COUNTRY

I run a pub in Sydney. With the reopening of hospitality to the fully vaccinated, there comes the expectation that hospitality workers will be enforcing a vaccine mandate. Without any public health orders in place, how are hospitality workers, who have no training in conflict diffusion, going to turn away unvaccinated patrons? It’ll definitely be awkward, but what happens if it gets aggressive?

DAVID SPEERS

Simon Longstaff, let me bring you in here. What are the ethics here for, you know, a pub or a restaurant required to police vaccination status?

SIMON LONGSTAFF, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE ETHICS CENTRE

Well, in a sense, pubs and restaurants have been doing this now for decades. I’m not sure when the responsible service of alcohol rules came into place, but when I was a kid and trying to get into pubs below age, there were people there who would check your identity. Nowadays, they do something similar, and if they believe a person to be intoxicated, they can’t come in or they won’t be served. So I imagine that it’s going to be the same kind of activity here, where you’ve got to exercise some judgement about whom you admit, according to the evidence they’re able to present. And it’ll bring some burden. I mean, already there will be aggressive people there who can’t get into a pub because they’ve had too much to drink or they don’t fit some other requirement. And we’ve got to be building upon that capacity.

DAVID SPEERS

Look, I take your point that pubs have to check for age, they have to check you’re not drunk, but this is checking everybody. And restaurants and cafes and so on are sort of in uncharted territory here as well. Where do the rights of...the rights and ethics lie for staff and businesses contemplating this new world, Simon?

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Well, it’s part of a general situation. In the new world, let’s assume that it’s deemed to be necessary to exclude certain people if they don’t meet a particular condition, such as having had a vaccination. If that’s necessary, then what we need to do, first of all, is to make sure that everybody sees that there is a legitimate basis for the rules that are in place. Secondly, we need to have people being equipped with adequate support to be able to make those checks, and to give them the tools to do that with as least disruption to the normal commerce that takes place as possible.

So, from an ethical perspective, you want to balance the need to act with prudence and to safeguard the welfare of people, assuming that to be necessary, with finding ways to impose the minimum degree of burden both on those who have to exercise discretion as to who can and can’t enter, and those, of course, who are seeking to be admitted into premises.

DAVID SPEERS

Sally?

SALLY McMANUS

There’s an employment law aspect to this, too. So, employers are responsible for safe workplaces, so it can’t fall back onto the individual worker to have to do that. So, for example, if you’re in a cafe and you’re the waiter and someone is aggressive or they’re saying, “I’m not going to show you my vaccination status,” and they start threatening someone, that worker really should take themselves out of that situation. And this is a problem as well, because the employer or the owner or the small business owner is then in that situation as well.

So I think it’s important – it’s a bit of what Simon was saying, is that people understand that these rules are not ones being imposed by that individual worker or that individual business, this is what is required for everyone, and for that to be backed in by governments to be...you know, public education campaign about that. Then there’s the other moral obligation, really, on all of us to put yourself in the shoes of that worker who has to do that every day. That could be any of us, and what would that be like, and for us all to be respectful and kind to them.

DAVID SPEERS

Well, and that’s very good advice, and let’s hope everyone follows it. But Janna’s question, Bruce, goes to the prospect of aggression.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

Absolutely.

DAVID SPEERS

How real is that risk, do you think?

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

100%. So, you know, going back to Simon’s point, it’s very easy to say that, Simon, but it’s really hard to actually administer it. And the hard thing for these, you know, kids… And we’re talking about a 25-year-old barista who’s all of a sudden in charge of the health, security or status of someone coming in and out. For Janna’s question, you know, the issue is right now we have to check that vaccine status of, you know, only the vaccinated come in and the unvaccinated are over here, but as of December 1, we diminish these rules, so they’re all gone. So, all of a sudden, I’m getting...

DAVID SPEERS

In New South Wales.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

In New South Wales, correct.

DAVID SPEERS

We’re not sure about other jurisdictions.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

No, we’re not, but the ‘not sure’, and to Jennifer’s point before, the term ‘maybe’, makes it bloody difficult in business to get things going. So, here is, you know, this young person trying to solve this problem, but it’s a six-week issue that goes about morality and ethics and a whole lot of things. And you’re supposed to stand at the door and say, “You can come in and you can’t.” I just think the burden on business is too great. If it’s government-mandated – it’s a rule, it’s a law – OK, we’ve got a...no different than the lockdowns and the restrictions that were pretty bloody tough and we all had to maintain them. Now, all of a sudden, from the Prime Minister down, we’re saying, “Oh, we won’t mandate it. It’s up to you to choose.” And I don’t think that’s fair for business.

DAVID SPEERS

But these rules, and Jennifer Westacott, I’m keen for your views on whether there’s enough clarity for business and workers at the moment about how this is all going to work. It is state government, certainly in New South Wales and Victoria, saying you can open, but only for vaccinated, fully vaccinated customers. How will that work?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Well, it is going to be very difficult, and Sally and I have been arguing for a long time that this has got to be done through public health orders. You can’t leave this to individual employers. And so the people who go into a cafe know that the team there is basically delivering on a public health order, and we’ve been calling for that.

Look, I think, you know, businesses aren’t, you know, law enforcement bodies. And I think, the longer this goes on, the more impractical it’s going to be. And that’s why, you know, I’ve been very supportive of what New South Wales is proposing for 1 December. I think a lot of businesses are sort of like, “Well, OK, maybe I can do this between now and when we get to those targets,” but it’s very hard to ask a young person in a cafe to stop someone coming in off the basis of, you know, a proof of vaccine. And you just wonder how practical and realistic...

DAVID SPEERS

Well, indeed.

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

...this is, going forward. And I think that’s why what New South Wales is proposing is just, you know, common sense, that we just can’t go on like this.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

And sort of... May I say something? I mean, what I don’t understand is, you know, like, I sit here as a sort of a business owner and, of course, sitting inside the hospitality sector, but if our national goal is 80%, 85%, or let’s just call it 90%, why is that not my goal as a business? Why, if I have got 100 staff, or 10 or 1,000 staff, 900, 90 or 9 can be vaccinated and I’ve got room and gap for those who either choose not to or cannot be vaccinated? We don’t want to live in a society where, all of a sudden, that train’s for the vaccinated and that train’s not. And so I can go to the pharmacy and the supermarket and get on the tram or the train or the bus, but when they come to my venue, all of a sudden I’m policing this with staff who really don’t have to...

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Can I...?

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

It worries me.

DAVID SPEERS

Yes, Simon?

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Can I ask about...? What I cannot understand is why people aren’t addressing the initial point I made, that there has always been – well, for a long, long time at least – been an imposition upon people in pubs and other places to actually check access. I mean, we found a way to do that without having to expose all of the bar staff, young and otherwise. Why is this so different? That’s what I’d like to know.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

I’m happy to...I’m happy to answer that, Simon.

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Yes, please.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

And especially if we take the lens of the major events industry, we’re very used to registration, check-in, you know, we have the detail and the data of our customers very easily. So that’s a sector that understands and is very flexible to bounce back to that. No different than 9/11 – you know, our terror reports and how we approached that industry was, you know, rock solid. That said, this thing, you know... Like, let’s use a smoker as an example, right? I don’t smoke. Maybe... Do you smoke?

DAVID SPEERS

No, I don’t.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

OK, you don’t. Either way, the smoker in my venue is sent outside because he decides – or she – that smoking is something, you know, that they enjoy. But that’s their own health choice to make that. The secondary smoke that comes out is shared between our staff and our patrons. And we say to them, “You need to go outside.” So we’re sort of now trying to... I feel like what you’re trying to say is that we’re doing the same now with the vaccinated and the unvaccinated, that that’s how we should treat them in our bars, clubs and restaurants. And I don’t know if that has such a foundry, especially when the line in the sand on December 1 dismisses that all of a sudden. Very tough to implement it and then let it go the next day. So I get rid of 10 staff, and tomorrow I want them back.

DAVID SPEERS

Sally?

SALLY McMANUS

Oh, well, it is a difficult question, but if people aren’t vaccinated, they’ve got a bigger chance of passing it on. So this is also a safety problem. So... And in this case, it’s, you know, the government health orders or the government roadmap to do this. So to... A different way of looking at Simon’s question is, people in bars have to do training in responsible service of alcohol, as you know, and also about how to deal... And that’s about how to deal with people in those circumstances. If you’re in a cafe or those other places, a whole lot of new places that have to do that, those workers aren’t trained for it, they’re not paid for it. And all of a sudden, they’re going to be thrown out and asked to do it.

DAVID SPEERS

And it’s retail as well. Look, Dinesh, just give your perspective as, you know, a doctor. What would you say to small businesses, staff who are worried about how all this will work? Is this just a necessary reality? It’s better than being in lockdown at least, we’ve got to work out how to do this? Or do you share some of these concerns?

DINESH PALIPANA

Well, actually, my perspective is not as a doctor at all, but, you know, I grew up in a country where people couldn’t get around because of their ethnicity and people couldn’t get around because of their political views. And I saw people being burnt alive, I saw people being beheaded when I was growing up as a kid. So I’m really sad to hear about the aggression that the person asking the question made. But I think, more fundamentally, I don’t think we are a country that’s about that, that’s about becoming aggressive, that’s about becoming violent. And I think we need to go back to being a bit more compassionate towards each other. I get that we’re going through hard times, but right now, I think unity among our people is more important than ever if we’re going to get through this.

DAVID SPEERS

Important perspective there. Let’s get to our next question. It comes from Lorraine Blunt.

LORRAINE BLUNT, NERANG, QLD, KOMBUMERRI COUNTRY

As a homeowner, do I have the right to ask tradesmen who are coming to my house to carry out work if they have been vaccinated, or is it considered an invasion of their privacy?

DAVID SPEERS

Simon Longstaff, let me go to you on this. Is it clear what rights homeowners have in this sort of situation?

SIMON LONGSTAFF

I’m not sure if it’s absolutely clear what rights are, if you’re talking about legal rights. But from an ethical perspective, it all depends on whether you believe that something like COVID-19 is a genuine threat to the health and wellbeing of people in their homes. And in that sense, rather than seeing this as about whether or not there’s a particular declaration about a private matter, it’s a question about whether or not you meet the conditions, whether you have the qualifications to come in.

So, if a person turns up to do your plumbing, for example, you’re perfectly entitled to ask, “Are you a registered plumber? Can you show that you’ve done the apprenticeship?” and things of that kind. And in this case, I would think that it’s a similar kind of concern. Amongst the qualifications you might ask a person to reveal is whether or not they are safe to enter the premises, to perform the functions which you want them for, or whether or not they’re going to be exposing you potentially to some kind of additional risk.

And at that point, it’s not about doing something to the plumber or the person who wants to come in, whoever it is, it’s about you being able to, as a homeowner, Lorraine, make an informed decision about whether or not you’ll contract with that person for their services. So I think that’s the way we should start to think about this, even though people might say, “Oh, well, it seems like a personal issue.” In this case, assuming that it is a threat, then in those circumstances, it’s a reasonable question to ask.

DAVID SPEERS

Yes. Sally McManus, what do you think? Is it OK to ask the plumber who’s coming to fix your tap, “Have you got...are you vaccinated?”

SALLY McMANUS

I think it’s a reality. I think lots and lots of people will ask that. They’ll ask that about lots of things – they’ll ask that about taxi drivers, they’ll ask that about any situation they’re in.

DAVID SPEERS

And from a union perspective, that’s OK?

SALLY McMANUS

Well, this one is, you know, a contract that someone’s making with someone to perform something. And I guess, as Simon said, people will ask a whole lot of things when determining if they’re going to contract someone to do a job. And, you know, part of their vaccination status, I’m not sure – I’m not a lawyer myself – whether that’s legal, but I think ethical. I think it’s inevitable. I think it’s fair enough for people to know that if they’re coming to their house. I think we’ve also got to remember, too, though, that we can’t just think, just because people are vaccinated, that you’re completely safe. Like, there’s other protections...

DAVID SPEERS

Sure.

SALLY McMANUS

...you’re still going to need. You know, you still can spread it, but just not as much. It’s a good protection, but it’s not everything.

DAVID SPEERS

I’m told that on dating apps, apparently, that’s what...you can ask, you know, “Are you fully vaccinated or not?” Apparently that’s cool on dating apps. So, Bruce, what do you think? Would you ask a tradie coming to your house, “Have you been jabbed?”

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

It’s a really interesting conundrum. It actually happened to me this week, right?

SALLY McMANUS

Dating app?

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

No, not dating app. (LAUGHS) 29 years married this Saturday.

DAVID SPEERS

Congratulations.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

So not dating app. But, you know, it’s interesting, because I’m really pro-vaccine. You know, I, you know, believe in the science, whether others do or don’t. I think it’s our way out. And I think it’s a really important thing that, as a nation, we come together and get as many people vaccinated as possible. However, I’m also pro-choice, because I do believe there are people that... You know, and whatever their reasons, I think that’s what democracy’s all about. We have to have different people in our society or it gets pretty boring very quickly.

However, to your point, I had the issue in my own home, and all of a sudden I had to basically make the decision of, is that person vaccinated or not? And did I want them in my home? And, all of a sudden, I became very pro-vaccine. So it’s pretty interesting, isn’t it? And, you know, I’m not ashamed to admit that. But it became a personal conundrum over my ability to laser-focus on my business. And so I didn’t want someone who wasn’t vaccinated in my home.

DAVID SPEERS

No, well, fair enough.

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Actually...

DAVID SPEERS

Simon, I just want to know, you too, Simon...

SIMON LONGSTAFF

But, Bruce, you remained pro-choice. What you said is you respect the choice of a person not to be vaccinated, and you wished also to have a choice about whether to admit them to your home. One of the things we’ve tended to forget about all of this is, yes, we might be totally in favour of choice... And, in fact, there is no single person in public or private office who is arguing for genuinely mandatory or compulsory vaccination. Everybody has a choice.

But choices have consequences. And we’ve tried to pretend too much in this debate that you can choose whatever you like and nothing else flows from it. I think, yes, you can choose, as the plumber or whatever it happens to be, not to be vaccinated or not to disclose. But you shouldn’t pretend that other people, even if they respectfully engage with you, surrender their right to their self-interest or to discharge duties they owe to others. You make your choice, but you also have to understand that, in doing so, that will have effects, as it has always been the case.

DAVID SPEERS

Look, I should note, too, Simon, there are a lot of people struggling with the competing rights and what to do and so on. You’ve set up an ethics call centre called Ethi-call for anyone who wants to find out, you know, what rights outweigh which rights. It’s... I think we’ve got the website we can put on the screen as well.

TITLE

ethics.org.au

DAVID SPEERS

But what’s the thinking there?

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Well, it’s been actually set up for over 30 years now, so...

DAVID SPEERS

Oh, there you go!

SIMON LONGSTAFF

...it’s one of those instant successes that it’s come into its own. It’s the only free national service of its kind in the world. It’s there for people who’ve got really complex ethical questions, and it ranges from people in very senior roles in government to farmers and, of course, to people wrestling in medicine, end-of-life decisions and all the rest. And the Ethi-call service is there for anybody, irrespective of their means, irrespective of their world view, to come and be assisted, to work through an issue, so they can resolve some of these very difficult questions.

DAVID SPEERS

You might be getting a few more calls in the coming months.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

Can I quickly say, on this, though, you know, we’re being light-hearted in one bit about the home environment. But from a workplace issue... And we saw WorkSafe have issued, this, you know, complaint against the Department of Health. Now, that is major, right? So I’m running my little business, or I’m in regional Victoria, and someone is unvaccinated in my environment and then they drop dead of COVID on the floor. I, as the business owner, am potentially up for manslaughter, you know, so that’s a really dangerous...

SALLY McMANUS

Why? Why are you?

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

Well, am I or not? I don’t know the answer.

SALLY McMANUS

No. I don’t think so.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

And if my patron comes in and they contract COVID from another customer there, is that a public liability issue? And so the concern, I think, from business is that we don’t know the answers to these fundamental questions about where our liability rolls. And that’s pretty nervous when you’ve got a small business.

DAVID SPEERS

Well, I think the Prime Minister’s spoken of an indemnity for businesses who have not mandated vaccines, but there’s no legal protection for businesses that have mandated, which we will come to.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

OK, that’s alright.

DAVID SPEERS

But I want to get to our next question, which comes from Jlenia Dal Pio Luogo.

JLENIA DAL PIO LUOGO, PARKDALE, VIC, BUNURONG COUNTRY

The royal commission on the vaccine rollout has raised some concerns over the fact that some of the states have announced that they are going to open up when 70% of the threshold is met, leaving behind people with disability who haven’t been able to get fully vaccinated. How can we ensure a safe opening up of our country, making sure that the most vulnerable people are not left exposed?

DAVID SPEERS

Now, Dinesh, I want to come to you on this. You pointed out earlier that you suffered a spinal cord injury. You are a leading advocate for people with disabilities. The report that Jlenia is talking about there from the royal commission this week suggested it was unconscionable to open up at 70% vaccination if people with a disability have not been given the opportunity to be fully vaccinated. Do you agree with that?

DINESH PALIPANA

Well, you know, the thing is, people with disabilities have always experienced inequities, always. Education has been a challenge, employment has been a challenge, access to health care has been a challenge. So we’ve always had these gaps in people with disabilities. And I think, in a time of crisis, which is where we are now, it’s all been exposed, and it’s all come out and amplified.

So, people with disabilities, particularly some disabilities, are at an increased risk of mortality. In the UK, most of the deaths, six out of the ten people that have died in the UK, have been people that have had disabilities. People with intellectual disabilities in the UK are eight times more likely to die from COVID infections. So these risks are real, these risks are high. And if we get a whole heap of infections, we come back to that question of, how do we ration this health care? Some countries in the world have deprioritised people with disabilities from accessing lifesaving health care. So this has amplified the whole issue. And it’s a scary thing for a lot of people. I have a good friend who is a lawyer and she is immunosuppressed, so her immune response to even the vaccine is potentially compromised. So, we have people like that in our community as well that are particularly vulnerable.

I think, at the end of the day, Mahatma Gandhi said that, “The true measure of a society is how we look out for each other’s most vulnerable populations.” And I think that’s something that we have to keep in mind as we move forward.

DAVID SPEERS

So, again, do you think we should reopen if groups like people with a disability have not reached that 70% or indeed 80% vaccination rate?

DINESH PALIPANA

I think we have to do everything that we can to make sure that they are vaccinated and they are not at risk. But there are so many complicated challenges around this. But I think we have to ask our society to have a bit of compassion around the people that haven’t been able to access these vaccinations and that are at risk, and to work towards a plan where we can all come out of this together.

DAVID SPEERS

And, look, we also know that another vulnerable group, Indigenous Australians, is still well behind where the national average is at when it comes to vaccination. Simon, I’m just looking for your ethical view on this as well. Should the reopening happen until those vulnerable groups are at those target vaccination rates?

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Well, firstly, I think it’s unforgiveable that we’re having to have this conversation at this point where the most vulnerable members of our community have been left exposed, it seems in part, because of a conscious decision to do so. We should not, from an ethical point of view, expect those people with those vulnerabilities to bear the burden of what we would prefer to do in terms of opening up.

And I know there’s lots of arguments about the mental health costs of not opening up and all the rest, but I, unfortunately, suspect that we will open up, before that’s been achieved. And I think we as a society are going to have to accept that those who become infected and die because of their additional risk, that will be something we have to wear on our own conscience. You know, our hands will not be clean when we do it, if we do it. And I just think that it almost beggars belief that we’ve allowed this to be the situation where such a choice has to be made.

SALLY McMANUS

I really agree with that. I visited a disability service in April this year in south-western Sydney. And at that stage, even though people were in 1a, they weren’t vaccinated, the workers weren’t, the residents weren’t, the employer had no idea when it was going to happen. And what drives me insane is that people in Victoria, people elsewhere, but in particular people in Victoria, made a huge sacrifice last year, like, during the lockdown. And all of those days, they went through it to drive it down to COVID zero. And then we had this nine months – we bought the nation nine months, and other people around the country did, too. In those nine months things needed to be sorted, like the hotel quarantine, getting vaccines, doing the vaccine rollout. And we had the time to do it, and it was all bungled.

And so, like, I feel angry about that. I feel as though the heavy lifting was done by the people, and then we were let down. And the fact that we’re in this situation, we’re having this debate, is partly because of that. But I do agree that there’s an obligation on all of us to make sure that we direct all vaccines to people with disabilities and, obviously, Indigenous people, especially in remote areas, and not, you know, have all the pressures to reopen and expose them, because this is not their fault.

DAVID SPEERS

But the difficult question here, I suppose – and this is what the royal commission report and indeed our questioner, Jlenia, is talking about – is, do we delay reopening until these vulnerable groups do reach those benchmarks? Jennifer, I know business want to get things open as soon as possible, but what do you think? Should there be...?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

We shouldn’t be... We shouldn’t let ourselves get into this position. Like, we’ve got the supply. We’ve got the state systems now working pretty well. In remote communities, a lot of companies are willing to step up, because they’ve got medical teams in those communities and get people vaccinated. We should pull out every single stop we have got available to us to make sure we are not in that position, because we should not have been in that position. But we’ve got to make sure that we do every single thing we can, that we’re not leaving people who are vulnerable unvaccinated. And that’s what the top priority of the rollout needs to be.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

But as a sort of simple Australian who, you know, doesn’t go down the rabbit hole on everything, my assumption was that February, March and April, the top people who needed to be protected were protected. And, you know, whether it’s government, this is a war. And, you know, you should be absolutely putting that at the top of the list, and there’s no excuse.

SALLY McMANUS

No excuse.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

I mean, if you were in business, you’d be fired for not actually fixing your remit. And it’s a disaster. And we shouldn’t be having this conversation.

DAVID SPEERS

Dinesh.

DINESH PALIPANA

If I might add something to that, too, there is a time-critical component to this, because we have lockdowns, we have lockdowns coming in and out, but the first set of people to get locked down are people in residential care facilities. And there are lots of people with disabilities, lots of elderly, living in those facilities. And for the last year and a bit, every time there’s an outbreak, they’re the first to be locked away. They’re the first to be cut off from their families. And they’ve been doing this for a long time, actually a lot longer than the general population.

So we need to get them vaccinated. We need to get them access, so they cannot be locked down in these facilities all the time. And there are lots – in Queensland, there’s about 1,600 people living in these level-three facilities, and there’s a lot more floating around as well. So we need to make sure that these people get their freedoms and some modicum of life as quickly as possible.

DAVID SPEERS

Let’s get to our next question. It comes from Ivan Ballin.

IVAN BALLIN, HOBART, TAS

I’m a registered nurse of 38 years’ experience. I’m currently not vaccinated against COVID. I have worked in emergency, coronary and intensive care, medical, surgical, rural and remote, and for 23 years as a midwife, delivering and caring for babies and their mothers. I now find myself to be almost a pariah amongst my peers, and unable apply for positions in health care due to mandatory vaccination requirements. Do you think this is fair, given that all healthcare staff treat all others as infectious and are themselves treated as infectious? Thank you.

DAVID SPEERS

Dinesh, let me start with you on this one. Does it surprise you there are healthcare workers who don’t want to be vaccinated? Is this a common thing? And what would you say to a nurse like Ivan about it?

DINESH PALIPANA

I have come across healthcare workers that are worried about getting vaccinated. And I think we’ve always had compulsory vaccinations. When I first started working as a doctor, or even a medical student, I had to provide evidence of a number of vaccinations and immune status. So it’s always been a thing. I think right now we’re in a really difficult position, but there are a couple of interesting things.

I was talking to a very senior colleague of mine who said that apart from making things compulsory, he had a few human-level conversations with some colleagues about the topic and it changed the direction. So I think conversations are important. And I guess the other thing is that some of these issues are being tested in the courts at the moment. And when we can’t come to an agreement between the employers and people, that’s where it has to be tested, and we’ll probably get an answer for that.

DAVID SPEERS

Simon, where do you stand on mandatory vaccinations in various sectors, particularly the healthcare sector?

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Well, the first thing is I would never, ever have used the word ‘mandatory’ or ‘compulsory’. These vaccinations are not mandatory, they’re not compulsory, they are conditions that people have to meet for a range of activities, including employment. I’ll come back to that. The first thing I wanted to say, though, is I really felt for Ivan and his comment that he’s treated as a pariah. One of the things I hope we can avoid doing is ridiculing or ignoring or certainly demonising people who either choose, particularly choose, not to be vaccinated.

That’s not the way to deal with it. Their concerns ought to be taken very seriously. But in doing so and treating them with the kind of respect for their intrinsic dignity and the kind of choice that Ivan wants to make, that doesn’t mean that we should say, “Well, just come and do whatever you happen to feel like, because you are concerned.”

If – and this is the thing I’m not really qualified to talk about – if there really is a serious reason to require vaccination for the health and safety of the people that Ivan wishes to care for, then one of the conditions that he has to meet to do that, today, in today’s world, which is different to the 20-plus years he spent, may be that issue of vaccination. And if he chooses not to be vaccinated, then he’s also choosing not to meet the conditions by which he can continue.

And this is…in some sense, is an entirely unremarkable thing. Airline pilots reach a point where conditions change, where if they don’t undertake their testing and if their eyesight starts to go, they have to discontinue what they’ve been doing – over many, many decades in some cases – because they don’t meet the conditions. And I think if we took the heat out of it by not seeing it as about compulsion or mandate, but rather about, these are the conditions, only those which are strictly necessary, making provision where we can for those who can’t or won’t take that, so that they’re not excluded. But at the same time, absolutely reserving the right to make that prudential judgement. Then I think we’re in a better position. But let’s not ridicule or make people like Ivan feel a pariah.

DAVID SPEERS

The points you’ve raised there, Simon, do feed into our next question, which comes from Dan Packham.

DAN PACKHAM, MAROUBRA, NSW, BIDIGAL AND GADIGAL COUNTRY

Behavioural science has shown us that a core tenet of human motivation is autonomy, a sense of being in control and having a choice. Whilst the recent COVID mandates do come with good intent, they can be perceived as taking away people’s autonomy, thereby creating feelings of frustration right through to intense anger and resistance, as we’ve seen recently in Victoria and elsewhere.

As we move towards a world where vaccinations are required in certain settings, how can policymakers guide behaviour change in a way that doesn’t invoke a threat response? Are there better ways to nudge people in the right direction, without the need for the parental “Do as you’re told” approach and the backlash that that can create?

DAVID SPEERS

Bruce, let’s hear from you on this. Is it possible to nudge, rather than order or tell people they have to be vaccinated?

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

Well, Dan, it’s a really good question, and, you know, I’m big for autonomy. You know, I think that teams are really interesting things. Like, I was sort of the daggy kid at school and I wasn’t great at sport, right, but I learnt a lot about teams. And when you get people together and you’ve got a goal and you know where you’re going to, everyone’s happy to run and get there, so leadership then really plays into that. And I think part of what Dan’s question is, is how do we actually get us all running to the same goalpost?

And at the moment I think we’ve got such a disparate amount of information coming and going, and I think people are really confused. You know, Jennifer used that term ‘maybe’ before, and in business we can’t have maybe. We have to be black and white, we have to have a goal and we have to go exactly where we’re running to, and so it’s a problem and it stems to leadership.

DAVID SPEERS

So, I mean, this opens the question around mandating, or conditional vaccines, as I think Simon would prefer to call them. We know, Sally and Jennifer, you’re kind of on the same page on this. Jennifer, just explain to us what your view is about where businesses, or indeed sectors, should be able to mandate a vaccine?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Well, let’s go back to Simon’s point, ‘cause he’s absolutely right – we should not be using that term, we should be saying, this is a condition of your employment, like there are many conditions. You know, if you’re working on a mining site you have to test absolutely zero for alcohol. So, you know, I think he’s absolutely right and I think we should reframe this as about condition.

And clearly there are some sectors where the risks are so high – health in the example that we were just talking about – where there are essential services, where there is a risk of a system breakdown, where employers will have to require people, as a condition of their employment, to be vaccinated. And Sally and I have been arguing that that should ideally be done through public health orders, and that they should be consistent.

Now, the states haven’t gone there, so that means that employers have to do that. The Fair Work Ombudsman has put out some pretty helpful guidance around that. You know, that people should consult with their teams, that they should consult with the unions. And Qantas is a masterclass on this, they’ve done this extremely well. So there are going to be circumstances where the risks are so high – health, aged care, very high-risk industries, essential services – where people are going to have to say, look, as a condition of your work, you need to be vaccinated.

But what Sally and I have been arguing for a long time is that the fundamental discussion that we need to be having is a positive agenda to get people vaccinated. Making sure that we aren’t painting people as pariahs, as Simon said. Giving them a sense of, you know, what are the advantages? Giving them the right information and making it not a finger-wagging exercise, but what’s the benefit to people? Our campaign, Get One Shot Closer, is all about getting one shot closer to your grandma or getting one shot closer to your mates at work and getting one shot closer to your friends. It’s not about saying, “You’re doing something wrong.” And I think that’s turned a lot of people off. So Sally and I have been very much we’ve got to run a positive campaign.

Governments have rightly decided this is voluntary, but there are going to be some high-risk industries where, as a condition of employment, in order to protect the safety of people in their teams and their customers and protect continuity of services, we’re going to have to say, people, as a condition of their employment, have to be vaccinated.

DAVID SPEERS

But, Jennifer, in the absence of a state government public health order, some businesses are and plan to introduce these conditions of employment, or a mandate, call it what you will – SPC, Qantas, Telstra. Are you saying they shouldn’t be doing that?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

No, I’m saying that they should be doing it. They have to do it, because they have to be able to guarantee the safety of their workers and their customers.

DAVID SPEERS

But they don’t have this public health order you’re talking about.

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

No, no, but it would have been... What we said, Sally and I, is it would have been better to do this through public health orders, consistently.

DAVID SPEERS

Is that what you’re saying, Sally?

SALLY McMANUS

Well, those public health experts make it where they see it as a broader public health issue.

DAVID SPEERS

Telstra? Telstra workers?

SALLY McMANUS

No, so in the case of health care it’s obviously about the workers, but it’s also about the people they are caring for. For us, it’s a safety issue.

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Exactly.

SALLY McMANUS

So it’s a safety issue in the workplace. And so, in the case of other workplaces, where there’s no public health order, you have to assess whether or not someone who chooses not to get vaccinated poses a greater risk to the other workers and also to themselves.

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Exactly.

DAVID SPEERS

So, in this example of, say, SPC, what do you think? Should they be...

SALLY McMANUS

Well, first of all, I think they jumped the gun, seriously, and it caused a lot of division, as the person was pointing out in that workplace, and it has in a whole lot of the other workplaces where this has happened, too. Despite everything, Australia is on track to get one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, and that’s because, you know, we’ve all been positive about it, and not divisive, like it is in the US.

DAVID SPEERS

So you don’t think these companies should be going it alone?

SALLY McMANUS

I don’t. I think that they need to do a proper assessment, they need to talk to their workforce. If it is the case that there’s really good reasons, that there’s no other way of keeping everyone safe, well, they might then say it’s a condition of employment here. But there is a whole lot of other options, too, like rapid tests, like masks, like all of those other things.

DAVID SPEERS

Sure, there’s other options.

SALLY McMANUS

If they can’t do that, there is no other option. In the end, you do have… As Simon said, it’s a freedom of choice of course to get the vaccine, but if there’s consequences for you not to choose, and if you choose not to and there’s a higher chance that you’re going to make others sick, well, then, everyone’s got a right to safety.

DAVID SPEERS

So there are, however, some public health orders issued for healthcare workers in, I think, all states and territories. In Victoria, a public health order was issued for construction, as well. Now, do you think that was the right thing to do or not?

SALLY McMANUS

Also, in New South Wales and their LGAs, to leave those LGAs as well, it’s a public health order, so it’s not just in Victoria. In the case of that, those experts made that decision, you know, as they say, around the fact that it’s the only way to keep those workplaces safe at the moment. Now, those public health orders expire, as well. They’re not there forever. It may be in another couple of months it’s no longer necessary. But in order...

DAVID SPEERS

If you want to work the next couple of months.

SALLY McMANUS

If you want to work the next couple of months, in order to keep those workplaces safe they made that decision.

DAVID SPEERS

Was it the right decision, though? That’s what I’m asking.

SALLY McMANUS

I think there should have been more consultation. I think there might have been ways that they could get…other ways to make sure that you totally reduce the risk. But in a circumstance where you’re saying only 25% or 50% of people can come to the workplace anyway, we’re in the middle of a terrible pandemic with really high numbers here in Melbourne. You’ve got to respect that they’ve made that decision to keep people safe.

DAVID SPEERS

So is it the right decision or not?

SALLY McMANUS

Well, you know, I’m not the public health expert. You’re asking me to sort of... I don’t have the data, all of that. I respect their decision and that it should be followed.

DAVID SPEERS

And what about the protests...

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

But I think, David...

DAVID SPEERS

Sorry, I just want to follow this. What about the protests that followed? Because, Sally McManus, you did say this was an attack on the union, orchestrated by the far right. Do you now accept there were actually union members involved in that protest?

SALLY McMANUS

I always accepted that there was union members involved. There was construction workers there. It’s more about why did we get to a point where people were so angry about this issue? And it goes back to where we started. Like, when you mandate things, a lot of people will get their backs up and say, “Well, you’re not telling me what to do.” Like, “This is unfair.”

DAVID SPEERS

So that mandate did fire up those protesters?

SALLY McMANUS

Yes, absolutely it did. But there was a whole lead-up to this, like, for months and months and months, where on social media and elsewhere, and, let’s face it, you know, Craig Kelly, Clive Palmer, the Murdoch press, Christensen, are all saying that this is like an impingement on your freedom and so, and you could see it happening on social media every day, where people were being told that. So by the time that mandate happened, people already had strong views about this, and so I think that that was a volatile, conflict-based environment that should have been avoided. Having said that, that was stoked and fed by those very people, the far right and those anti-vaxxers.

DAVID SPEERS

And those union members and other workers just were suckered into it, were they?

SALLY McMANUS

Well, if you think about it, the majority of construction workers and union members weren’t at that protest.

DAVID SPEERS

No.

SALLY McMANUS

Like, most construction workers are getting vaccinated and are pretty upset that they’re not working at the moment. This is a small, small group of people.

DAVID SPEERS

Yeah. Jennifer?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

I just think we’ve got to get this right back into the perspective that we’re talking about. This is about keeping people safe.

SALLY McMANUS

Yeah.

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

This is about making sure that you’re keeping your teams safe, you’re keeping your customers safe, and making sure that you are doing whatever you can to do that. And if companies and businesses, particularly in those high-risk areas, particularly in essential services, like Telstra, high-risk industries like Qantas, if that’s the only way that they can keep their people safe, then they ought to be able to say as a condition of employment, “You need to be vaccinated.” And people have choices, of course, but we need to make sure that the safety of people is paramount to this discussion.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

Can I just say, I agree 100%, Jennifer, with what you’re saying, but could it not be the case that if the national average is 80% or 90%, that then that is the average for business as well? Like, do we need a 100% mandate for construction? Or can that industry, not being front-line healthcare worker, be 90% and that business owner needs to reach that target to move forward?

SALLY McMANUS

But you’ve got to remember that that’s at this moment, at this moment while there is a big outbreak in Melbourne, that is what’s needed. It may not be what’s needed when we get to 90%, which I reckon we really will, and it may not be next year, either. But at this moment that’s what’s needed.

SIMON LONGSTAFF

You can’t apply those sorts of general statistics. I mean, there are some areas where small margins of error can have absolutely disastrous consequences.

SALLY McMANUS

Exactly, and everyone thinks they’ll be the 10%.

SIMON LONGSTAFF

The other thing I want to put on the table about this is I think part of the anger that you see in many parts of Australia is that ordinary people are really annoyed that they’re held to strict account as to whether they wear the mask or whether they’re vaccinated or a whole plethora of things, but they look at the people who are at the top of the tree, the people with the real power, and more generally they’re not accountable for anything that they do.

I mean, Bruce was making this point, I think, a little bit earlier. And I just reckon that when it comes to things like, going back a bit, the sports rorts and any number of other areas, we are paying the price in part in the country now for the end of accountability and responsibility amongst our political leaders, which has really annoyed people. And I just think that we’ve got to also take stock, not just about the particular issues but about the larger notion of our political culture and what impact it has when you reach a crisis like we have before us today.

DAVID SPEERS

It’s a fair point. It’s a whole other program, I think, Simon, that we’d need another hour for! But, no, it’s a very good point. Let’s get to our final question of the night, though, which comes from Vassili Efimov.

VASSILI EFIMOV, LENNOX HEAD, QLD, BUNDJALUNG COUNTRY

Thousands of Queensland residents, like my partner and I, have been locked out of the state since July. The only way for us to return home is to fly to Queensland and hotel quarantine at $4,000 per couple. A lot of people cannot afford that. Among those stuck at the border are grey nomads, who followed the government’s pledge to travel within Australia and to support the local economy.

The Queensland government won’t even concede to allow fully vaccinated, COVID-negative people to return by land and home quarantine. The financial and mental toll is immense. This is unnecessary, illogical and inhumane. What does the panel think of the Queensland government’s stance, and of those forgotten Australian citizens? Thank you.

DAVID SPEERS

I should note it’s not just Queensland, other states have hard border closures. Tasmania have also said now they’re not going to reopen the whole country until we get to 90% adult vaccination. Bruce, what do you think of these border closures?

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

Look, I think for me, and, Vassili, it’s a really valid point, but when we pull it apart, the issue of federation in this country is a real problem, right? Like, here we are with a prime minister who actually really should be… This is a national response, I call it a war and it is, and we should have been engaging everyone, and yet we’ve politicised a pandemic, and we’ve got all these different – seven, eight, nine, ten different opinions.

And so we really should have gone in this together, and we should have come out of it together. And it frustrates me terribly when I look at the landmass that we have of Australia and we look at the landmass of China or the US, you know, 1.3 billion and 330 million, and this little country with 25 million people and these different opinions. Now, yes, that might have meant that COVID spread to all areas, but we would have gone in together with the same targets and we would have come out together with the same targets. It’s a real problem.

DAVID SPEERS

You’d like to see these borders open before the Melbourne Cup, I’m guessing.

BRUCE KEEBAUGH

Well, look, business is one part of it, but I’m more interested in getting our communities back together and seeing people, you know, have life again. You know, it’s not about money, it’s about living, and we’re not living at the moment, and it’s a terrible way to be. So, yes, I want to see the borders open, I want to see grandparents and kids to see each other, and I want that stopped.

But what I really want stopped is the waste and all the bureaucracy of seven, eight different health officials and blah, blah, blah, and all those business cards, which probably go nowhere. It should be one decision and one direction for our country.

DAVID SPEERS

Yeah. Sally, I guess this has probably been a revelation to many through the pandemic, but, constitutionally, the states have all these powers to do this.

SALLY McMANUS

They do. You know, I’d trade being in Queensland tomorrow, like, I would. You know, what we’re going through in New South Wales and Victoria, is, our choices are this – live through more lockdown, and that’s so hard, open up and a lot of people are going to die. And so neither choice is a good choice. In Queensland, what have they got? They’ve got... Put aside what’s happening at the moment with that outbreak.

So let’s take WA. They’ve got COVID zero and they’ve got the opportunity to try and get to 90-plus and not face those choices. Now, if I was there, I’d be doing everything I could to keep it that way. And I don’t blame... And there’s, like, lots of people suffering and lots of rules that just seem crazy, but we’re still following them and they’ve got to be done to keep people safe. And I don’t blame the Queensland government or the WA government for wanting to keep it that way.

DAVID SPEERS

Jennifer?

JENNIFER WESTACOTT

Look, I understand that point and I understand that philosophy, but I just don’t think that we can go on like this. I mean, we’ve got a national plan, we’ve got those targets, we’ve got to do everything we can in those states to beef up those vaccination rates, get the health capacity right, because it is about, you know, what kind of a country are we now? We’re a very fractured country. You know, we’ve got to get back to being one country where people can move across borders freely.

And it isn’t just about business, although that’s starting to have its toll, we’re hearing stories that people can’t get machinery in, they can’t get workers across borders to do things in airports and in some of the logistics and some of the mining areas. The longer this goes on, the more difficult this will be. We’re starting to paint a picture to the international community that we’re a very confused place to do business. But I come down to Bruce’s point – this is the personal stuff.

You know, a friend of mine couldn’t go and visit her dying mother in Brisbane, but the wives of footballers could get across. I mean, it’s those inconsistencies, those disproportionate decisions, that are being made that are really hurting the fabric of Australia. We need, as quickly as possible, to stick to that national plan and become one country again, because a fractured country is a much more weak country, and I think this is really starting to take its toll on people.

DAVID SPEERS

Dinesh, you’re there behind that closed border in Queensland – how do you feel about it?

DINESH PALIPANA

I mean, like it was said, these are complex decisions, public health is a complex science. But what I can tell you is today, just before I came up to this studio, I watched my grandma in a hospital through FaceTime and it was hard enough to get her into a hospital in that country, and my mum and I don’t know when we’ll see her again.

DAVID SPEERS

Where is she?

DINESH PALIPANA

She’s in Sri Lanka. So will I ever see the woman who held me as a child alive again? I don’t know. But this is definitely an emotionally charged thing for a lot of people.

DAVID SPEERS

No, it sure is, and, look, we still don’t have a lot of certainty around the international border reopening, either. Simon Longstaff, let me finish with you on this. It’s been a vexed issue throughout, the state border closures. How do you view them and when they should open?

SIMON LONGSTAFF

Well, rather than talk about specific borders, I’d go to a matter of principle, and Jennifer touched upon it, and that’s the notion of proportionality. Every government in Australia should only be imposing limitations that are strictly necessary with the lightest burden that is possible. And so if they can explain why it’s strictly necessary and how they’ve sought to alleviate that burden and do that consistently across the Commonwealth. Yes, there might be some variation, but that’s something I think we could all live with.

DAVID SPEERS

Indeed. Alright, well, that is all we have time for. Thanks to all of our panel and for a terrific discussion tonight: Bruce Keebaugh, Sally McManus, Jennifer Westacott, Dinesh Palipana and Simon Longstaff. And thank you for all your questions tonight. Some terrific ones there.

Next week, are we preparing for a cyber-pandemic? Stan Grant looks at why online crime and misinformation is on the rise. And he’ll be joined by Communications Minister Paul Fletcher, Shadow Education Minister Tanya Plibersek, journalist Marc Fennell, former national cybersecurity adviser Alastair MacGibbon, and cofounder of online news site The Daily Aus, Zara Seidler. And I’ll see you on Insiders on Sunday morning. Stay safe. Goodnight.