Hard Truths

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tonight, some hard truths on race, on justice, and on accountability. Tens of thousands of protesters have taken to the streets across Australia, against the health warnings and the wishes of some of the politicians, grabbing a rare moment in the spotlight to fight for change. In our studio, two mothers who know all too well how dangerous it can be for young black men to interact with police and the authorities. And we’ll face up to the hard economic realities of recession tonight, as well as unemployment and the scandal of robodebt. You’ve got the questions, now let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.

Good evening to you. Welcome to the program. Joining me tonight

actor, writer and Gamillaroi and Torres Strait Islander woman Nakkiah Lui; also with us, Liberal senator for New South Wales Andrew Bragg; joining us from Melbourne tonight, lawyer and community advocate Nyadol Nyuon; writer, actor and Wongutha-Yamatji man Meyne Wyatt; and Shadow Treasurer Jim Chalmers. Remember, you can stream us on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. #QandA is the hashtag. Please do join the discussion.

Now to our first question tonight. It’s from Leetona Dungay, sitting with her daughter Cynthia, in our audience.

LEETONA DUNGAY

The whole world has been...has been outraged by the murder of George Floyd by police in Minneapolis. He was held down with a knee in his back saying “I can’t breathe” until he died. My son, David Jr, was killed in very similar circumstances. David was a proud Dunghutti warrior who was killed in custody in Long Bay jail hospital on 29 December 2015. David was 26 years old. Just like George Floyd, David was pushed down into the ground by heavy officers. David cried out “I can’t breathe” many times in the space of his last nine minutes. Despite over 430 Aboriginal deaths in custody since the royal commission, no police or prison officer has ever been held criminally liable. We know we have a long fight ahead to get justice. So I’m asking the panel, will you join us to demand charges are laid on the people responsible for my son’s death?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Meyne Wyatt.

MEYNE WYATT, WRITER AND ACTOR, WONGUTHA-YAMATJI MAN

Auntie, I’m the same age as him. He could have been sitting here right now. Unfortunately, he’s not. I was at the protests on the weekend. Since 2015... In 2016, my nephew passed in Kalgoorlie. I know this experience all too well. I was arrested when I was 11 years old. I’ve been searched through my pockets. This is a fight that I’ll have to go on for the rest of my life. I’m an actor, but I’m a black man first. I’m an Indigenous man. I’m an Aboriginal man. This is my life. I don’t get to turn off. I don’t get to switch off. I don’t get to go home. I don’t have that privilege. I will be frightened till my last breath, because racism isn’t going to die, it’s not going to leave, it’s going to be here after I’m gone. Unless we do something about it. So I’ll be fighting for the rest of my life.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Leetona, Cynthia, can I just ask – you’ve talked about the similarity between the death of George Floyd and your son’s death. When you heard that those were George Floyd’s last words, how did you react?

LEETONA DUNGAY

Well, the whole family was so devastated, and tears just come all from my eyes. We just couldn’t believe that there’s been a repeat, but over the...overseas, it’s happened with a black man. And...it’s not good. And you’ve got black men here in Australia that’s got killed the same way. So, it’s so devastating for two mothers. And...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let me put this to you, Senator Bragg. How do you respond when a mother says to you, you know, “I just want justice”?

ANDREW BRAGG, LIBERAL SENATOR FOR NSW

Well, Leetona, thank you very much for being here and for taking the time. It’s... I’m very sorry for your loss, and I’m sorry that Australia has let you down. The... At a national level, we are trying to accept the hand that the Indigenous community has expended through the Uluru Statement, which asks for structural reforms. Now, that is something that is very important to heal our country. At the local level, I mean, I understand – and a lot of the feedback that I’m presented with is – that relations with the police at the local level is a very important issue. And there are very bad examples, and there are very good examples. Now, in your case, I’m...I’m going to commit myself to spend my time in parliament to work on these issues.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nakkiah Lui, when you hear a cry for something simple like justice, I mean, do you feel anything is enough, in terms of a response?

NAKKIAH LUI, ACTOR AND WRITER, GAMILLAROI AND TORRES STRAIT ISLANDER WOMAN

OK, well, first of all, I just want to say thank you so much for being here. You are so brave. You know, I grew up being scared from the police, you know, in a similar way. I’m an Aboriginal woman and a Torres Strait Islander woman before I’m ever an actor or a writer. You know, I know what it’s like to have your dad leave and not come back and you don’t know what’s happened, to live in fear. I’m lucky because I have fair-skinned privilege.

And, really, that’s the difference sometimes between being alive and being dead, and I want that to be very clear. Because we’re not crying out for justice, Hamish. We’re saying, “Don’t kill us.” That’s a really basic, simple request – do not kill us. We don’t need to be coming to the table with this. It just needs to change, because it’s been happening. The royal inquest into deaths in custody happened in 1991. That was the inquest. There were people being killed in custody before then. Aboriginal people have been fighting for our lives since 1788. Black Lives Matter in this country has been a movement since colonisation. So we’re not asking for the world. We’re asking to live.

And to be honest with you, Andrew, yeah, we can say there’s good police, there’s bad police, but quite frankly, if people in positions of authority can’t not kill a vulnerable person who’s locked up, then maybe we need to re-look at these institutions. Because the thing is, is that we can change them. They’re just that – they’re just institutions. And if they are set up where you can’t even trust that someone isn’t going to be killed with a knee on their neck because they can’t breathe, then that institution isn’t working.

So, for me, I’ll stand by you, I’ll be there every step of the way. And I’m sorry that had to happen to your son and I just...I still can’t believe we’re fighting for it to this day. I’m sorry. I... Thank you for being so brave.

HAMISH MACDONALD

When you...

NYADOL NYUON, LAWYER, COMMUNITY ADVOCATE

Could I just...

HAMISH MACDONALD

If you wouldn’t mind just waiting a moment, Nyadol. Nakkiah, I just want to understand, though, when...in the context of everything you’ve just said, when the Prime Minister responds to this moment and says there is no need to import things that happen in other countries, that...that Australia is a wonderful country, how do you respond to that?

NAKKIAH LUI

Well, I think it’s incredibly ignorant and I think it’s...you know, I think it’s purposely so. I think a lot of people would argue it’s a wonderful country. I’m sure the family of David Dungay would argue if it’s a wonderful country. You know, police brutality is the very tip of the iceberg, because we see it. The bottom of the iceberg is there are massive inequalities with Aboriginal lives since Closing the Gap. I mean, this is a broad-spectrum thing. So when the Prime Minister says this is a wonderful country, he should really...you know, it’s tone-deaf and it’s disrespectful, because Aboriginal people, all we want to do is have equality. All we want to have...do is an opportunity to reach for the stars and dream. And we just don’t want to...we don’t want to be killed because we’re black. And so I think it’s incredibly tone-deaf.

And also, if he talks about importing issues from overseas – Black Lives Matter has been...as I said, it’s been an issue here since colonisation, it’s been an issue since the Frontier Wars, since 1938, when we had our first Day of Mourning, when they were protesting not to take our children. That’s Black Lives Matter. So this isn’t imported. And, also, if the Prime Minister wants to talk about importing issues of the US presidency, well, the Coalition has had a long history of going and banging the drum behind the US when it comes to other foreign political issues – Vietnam War or, recently, COVID-19. And so, I think, you know, it’s been picking and choosing.

MEYNE WYATT

It’s a complete denial. That’s what it is, really. It’s been continuous since Captain Cook landed on these shores. It’s still happening. It’s a denial of our existence. It’s a denial of our existence this whole entire time, because it hasn’t been an issue that has ever been raised. It’s still happening right now, to this day. Last Friday, a brother boy died in Western Australia. This is... We’re still talking about it now. It’s a denial of what’s happening right now. These institutions are killing us, and it’s just the continuation. The whole time, since 1770. It’s the same thing. That’s what it is.

And what are we going to do about it? We’re not asking, we’re demanding. We’re demanding justice. And those protests in America, they’re not protests – they’re demanding it. And this is what’s happening. There are riots, and people are talking about order? Who cares about order if there’s no justice? We want justice. I’m sick of talking about being in order, ‘cause you know what? It doesn’t work. Being peaceful – peaceful protests – don’t work. You’re never satisfied. You’re never happy for what we do. I’ve got to sit here and I’ve got to be the nice guy. I don’t want to be the nice guy no more, ‘cause no-one listens to you. No-one listens to you. I’m sick of being this person that...this animal. I don’t want to be an animal no more.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nyadol...

NAKKIAH LUI

(APPLAUDS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just want to bring in Nyadol, because I know you were trying to say something during that...

NYADOL NUYON

Yeah, I just wanted to say, I think what we’re hearing here is the need just for acknowledgement that Indigenous people have suffered great, great injustice, and the statement that this is not America is really a statement that shows either indifference or an unacceptable lack of awareness. It’s a statement that I think is used to defer away from talking about things that are wrong in this country. And it’s used to defer these things in two ways. First, of course, obviously to say, “Don’t bring whatever is happening in America here.” And secondly, it’s to tell people that things are not as bad as America.

But from the stories we’ve heard here today from Indigenous people, things ARE as bad. Things have always been as bad. You know, we have Indigenous people that have lived on this land but have been dispossessed of their land. They’ve watched their culture destroyed. They’ve watched their children killed. They’ve seen over 400 people die in custody without no-one being held accountable. And that – the way that Indigenous people have been treated – is a clear statement that our institutions are not adequately addressing the serious issues that are here. So, I think, to tell a group of people who have been surviving since colonialism that things are not as bad is tremendously dismissive and erasive of the issues that are happening.

And also, even if you look at other groups of people – and I admit and completely accept that our situation is not comparable to what Indigenous people are going through – but you can also see traces and complaints about racism, race profiling, among African Australians and other people of...of...who are non-white. And these have been recorded, they’ve been litigated, and there are accusations that include even assault and abuse, allegedly, by police. And so the idea that somehow this is not happening in Australia is not true. It IS happening.

What I tend to find in this discussion, unfortunately – and without wanting to point fingers – is that the people who tend to say these comments, the people who said, “Things are not bad,” you know, are not...do not look like the kind of people that would end up beneath the knee of somebody having the life squeezed out of them. So, perhaps, to those people, you know, perhaps if we’re really serious about moving forward collectively as a country, perhaps...perhaps sit down and actually listen to the pain that you’re hearing here, to truly take it in, and to realise that, sometimes, we might live in the same country, but experience completely different realities. And we cannot insist on sort of mystical ideas of fairness and equality and justice, which actually doesn’t exist equally among all of us.

So, we hear the pain here, and I would like to, you know, say to everybody on this panel – particularly the Indigenous people who have come here and shared your story – I am sorry that, you know, I did not know the name, even a single name, of the 400 people that were murdered, but I knew the names of black Americans that were murdered, because it’s something that is inherent somehow in this country that we do not take Indigenous issues seriously enough, and we should.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question tonight is the mother of a young Indigenous teenager who was filmed being kicked and pinned to the ground by a New South Wales police officer last week. What’s your question for the panel tonight? And I should just note for our audience – we are not identifying you because your son is not to be identified or named either.

WOMAN

Mm-hm. So, I just wanted to ask, in these unprecedented times, since a video was released of my son being kicked to the ground by police, a lot of men from my community – and other people that just approached me in the public – have come to me to say this has happened to them as well. There’s been numerous recommendations still not addressed from the 1991 Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody, and the 400-plus further deaths since then. So, why haven’t adequate juvenile justice preventions...interventions yet occurred, so that police culture and attitudes changes towards our mob, especially our children? And further, should police or cops investigate their colleagues that are having a “bad day”, or should their violence be assessed by an independent body?

HAMISH MACDONALD

And before we go to the panel, can I ask you, the police commissioner in your state reflected on this incident and said that he thought the officer might have just been “having a bad day” – how did you receive that comment?

WOMAN

(SIGHS) I’m my son’s mother, and he’s only a child. This is a police officer that’s meant to protect and serve and deal with crime. I don’t believe he was doing anything criminal. He had every right to be where he was supposed to be. The onus was on him to act professionally. The onus was on him... (SIGHS) It’s difficult, because people can’t check their own mindset, what they’re doing. I believe not many...a lot of people, in the back of their mind, they would think that they have the right to do with us what they want because of that disparity between, you know, the dignity or the humanness of us compared to other people. So, I don’t...I don’t think it’s my... You know, it’s not my responsibility. I’m advocating for my son. If it was done in another area, then that person would be charged with assault. So, we want systemic change, and we don’t see that there’s any...that those kind of comments, and what Prime Minister Morrison said, shows any will for the dignity and our rights as Aboriginal people.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let me put that to you, Jim Chalmers.

JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW TREASURER

Well, first of all, to you, Auntie, I can’t imagine what it was like to see the...the footage of your...of your son and what happened to him, and clearly, as well, the injustice of the situation with David, with your son. And what it reminds us is that, even for those of us who care very deeply, not just about understanding discrimination and injustice, but people who genuinely want to eliminate it, you know, we can understand what this injustice looks like, but we can’t understand what it feels like. Right? As a 42-year-old white male in this society, the reason we need to listen to what Meyne said and Nakkiah said and your story, and your story, Auntie, as well, is because it’s only the accumulation of all of these stories of injustice or of discrimination that we can build up the will to act as a...as a country.

And when we were talking before about the Prime Minister and this wonderful country, we CAN be a wonderful country, but we won’t be until we get this right, until we make things right. We won’t have social and economic justice for all of us unless and until we have social and economic justice for the first of us. And that’s how we need to approach it. And that has... You know, that means a lot of different things. Clearly, it’s been disappointing, the progress that hasn’t been made, since the report into black deaths in custody. Clearly. And clearly, there’s a role for doing better on how we resource our Aboriginal Legal Services, how we get the justice programs right, how we get the custody notification system right – all of those very specific things. But overarching that, I think is something, you know, bigger and more important, and it is partly about the Statement from the Heart, but it’s also about kind of recognising that, until we get this right, we won’t fulfil our potential as a country.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You are still relatively early in your political career. You’ve heard tonight the examples of all the things that have been promised but never done. Can you honestly tell Australians watching tonight that you could actually solve these problems, that you could bring our nation together around the ideas that are needed to actually deliver on...on the very fine words that have been said time and time again for decades, and actually deliver what Nakkiah has said – just don’t kill black people?

JIM CHALMERS

Yeah, well, the responsibility is on all of us, you know. It’s not something that one person can change. It’s something that we have to change together. But there has to be the will. There has to be the commitment. We have to go beyond explaining or understanding or analysing discrimination. We have to try and eliminate it. And, you know, there have been landmarks along this road. Prime Minister Keating at Redfern, around the corner. The Uluru Statement from the Heart. The referendum. There have been all kinds of landmarks along this road, but we’re not where we need to be along it. And that will only change when the kinds of stories that we’re hearing tonight from the panel and from the audience...you know, when that makes a sufficient difference to how we feel about our country that we all want to do something about it – not just one person or one party or somebody, but all of us.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Senator Bragg, the truth of it is that, in Australia, within the last couple of weeks, if you’re a...if you’re a black teenage boy and you swear at a cop, you can end up with your head being slammed into a pavement. If you’re a white mining executive, you can press the button and blow up 46,000 years of black heritage on this continent...

ANDREW BRAGG

Mm.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..I mean, and you can do that without any punishment. Does that seem fair?

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, Hamish, I’m not an Indigenous person, but I’ve spent the year I’ve had in public office to try and listen as...as well as I could in places like Kempsey in the Central Coast, and in Redfern, where there are large Indigenous communities. And the feedback I get, consistently, is, “We need more control locally, to control our affairs, so that we can get the policies and the laws that we need to...you know, that we desire.” So, that is... Like, when I look at Uluru, I mean, I...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I’m sorry, but that was a question about fairness. Does that...? Does that...? Those two simple facts together – does that same seem fair to you?

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, of course it’s not fair, because, as I’ve said, I mean, we have failed on Indigenous policy. Australia is a great country, but we have not delivered for Indigenous people. And that is why we need to accept the hand of friendship, that I see Uluru as being, with tangible proposals to improve the lives...I mean, this is what the leadership has...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I saw you nodding, though, all the way through what Meyne and Nakkiah were saying. Did you agree that the Prime Minister was tone-deaf in what he said?

ANDREW BRAGG

No, I think the Prime Minister is talking about what is happening abroad. What I’m referring to tonight is a failure to make Australia a great country for Indigenous people.

NAKKIAH LUI

Oh, no...

MEYNE WYATT

So, does that mean reform, or dismantling, or throwing the systems in the bin?

ANDREW BRAGG

It means...

MEYNE WYATT

Or does it...? What does it mean? I’d like... Because I didn’t hear an answer from either of you.

NAKKIAH LUI

Also, Andrew, you said this was a wonderful country. I want you to look these two families in the eye – sorry to point at you, Aunties – look them in the eye and tell them it’s a wonderful country.

ANDREW BRAGG

I...I said that it was a great country, but it has not delivered for Indigenous people, and that’s why we need to do so much work...

NAKKIAH LUI

It’s not going to be a great country until we have equality for all people.

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, that is the point...

NAKKIAH LUI

It’s a false sense of greatness. It’s a mythology you want to feed yourself so you can go, “Oh, well, everything’s good, but these fellas – puh! – well, just throw ‘em to the side. It’s their fault.” And here’s the thing. We’re talking about all these landmark cases, we’re talking about, “Oh, what are we going to do? How do we come to the table?” We’ve told you what to do. A lot of the recommendations from the original Royal Inquest...Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody – they weren’t implemented. What you can do is you can listen to the families. They can tell you right now what they want. Listen to the families. The answer has been here all along. It’s been a lack of political will. So I don’t think it’s fair to think that we have to say there’s this long way to go and we need to figure out an answer. No, we need politicians to implement it. And you just haven’t.

And at the moment, what’s happening is that, when we have the young man, you know, getting face-slammed in a park by police, that’s what he’s doing on camera. What is happening behind closed doors? And we know – people are getting killed. So, what we need to do is listen to the families and just not do it. And you all... You’re now going, “Oh, well, we need to come to the table, we need to figure out a way.” The way is there. Use your political will to change it.

MEYNE WYATT

And the onus isn’t always on us, either. That’s got to come from you.

NAKKIAH LUI

Yeah. What are we going to do – not be Aboriginal?

MEYNE WYATT

There’s all this talk about reconciliation. That’s not the onus on us, that’s the onus on you. That’s the onus on your ancestors, not ours. You know what I mean? And see... I don’t see any change. I don’t see anything that’s put forward. Both things that came out of both of your mouths was hot and lovely fluff. That’s what it was. So, like, can you give a real answer? I don’t know. I haven’t heard anything.

NAKKIAH LUI

And the issue is, Meyne and I are actors and writers. We’re up here today because... Well, I don’t want to speak for you, Meyne, but as an Aboriginal person, you know, first and foremost, I’m here because I feel that responsibility to my community. But there are peak bodies who have done tonnes of research into this. We have the Aboriginal Legal Service, we have NATSILS, we have NACCHO. We actually have Aboriginal experts who have put plans forward onto how to actually change things.

JIM CHALMERS

I mean...

NAKKIAH LUI

So you should be listening to them...

JIM CHALMERS

Yeah.

NAKKIAH LUI

..and not sitting here telling Australia, “Oh, we need a long way to go hand in hand.” We’ve come to the table.

JIM CHALMERS

Nakkiah, I agree with you. I actually said, in my contribution before, that what’s lacking here is will and commitment.

NAKKIAH LUI

Not both sides.

JIM CHALMERS

I’m not pretending that we need to start from scratch here. I think that, in my, you know, entire adult life, there’s not been a more important statement than the Statement from the Heart. That is a roadmap. There has not been...

NAKKIAH LUI

As an Aboriginal person, I can tell you that that was a really great statement, but Aboriginal people have said lots of statements along the way.

JIM CHALMERS

OK, well, I was...

NAKKIAH LUI

We’ve had many great leaders. So, if that’s the most important statement you’ve heard, you need to do some more Aboriginal history...

JIM CHALMERS

Sure.

NAKKIAH LUI

..and talk to more Aboriginal people.

JIM CHALMERS

OK, Nakkiah. But also, what I was saying before about...in acknowledging that there hasn’t been enough progress since the report on black deaths in custody, obviously. I mean, that is self-evident. So, the points that you’re making are points that I share. There has been a lack of will, there’s been a lack of commitment, and that’s meant a lack of progress.

MEYNE WYATT

So, what’s your commitment?

NYADOL NYUON

I think part...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s just... Unless you want to respond to that, Jim...

JIM CHALMERS

I’m happy to respond to it. I mean, my commitment is to implement, in full, the Uluru Statement from the Heart and to progress the agenda that has been laid down about deaths in custody, in...across all of these issues that we’re talking about today.

NAKKIAH LUI

No, I’m going to have to interrupt you. That’s really great that you want to implement the Uluru Statement from the Heart. That’s also a very controversial thing within the Aboriginal community. What we’re talking about are recommendations that were recommended back in 1991, the majority which haven’t been implemented.

JIM CHALMERS

I understand.

NAKKIAH LUI

Things like the custody notification hotline, which is only available in a certain amount of states, and still hasn’t been implemented in other states.

JIM CHALMERS

Yeah, I mentioned that before, too.

NAKKIAH LUI

So, very basic things from that.

JIM CHALMERS

Yeah.

NAKKIAH LUI

So, we keep going back to the Uluru Statement from the Heart. Now, what we’re talking about is how do we prevent Aboriginal people from being killed in custody.

JIM CHALMERS

I know, and that’s why I referred to that report. And I specifically mentioned custodial notifications. These are important things that we need to progress.

NAKKIAH LUI

Yeah, I’m just making a different...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I do want to just bring in our next questioner because we’ve got a few people waiting to come back in, and also to ask us questions. So, this is from Barry Mullan in Goulburn, New South Wales. Barry served as a New South Wales police officer for 27 years.

BARRY MULLAN, GOULBURN, NSW

Our police are often called upon to deal with social issues that fall well outside the legal and criminal justice system. Discrimination, poverty, homelessness, mental illness, addiction, and lack of social services are just a few. Are we asking too much of our police to deal with such a wide range of social problems, while balancing their primary community policing roles?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nyadol, I’m interested in your thoughts on this. You’ve worked with young people in Victoria, but also police. Is this something that can be expected of police to solve?

NYADOL NUYON

Well, I’m not sure, and I don’t think that’s something that can be put back on the communities that are being policed, or overpoliced – I think that’s something that rests, predominantly, with policymakers. I do think that the relationship between police and certain communities is very problematic and, in Victoria, for example, during the Haile-Michael case, it became quite clear... And I’m just focusing on the Haile-Michael case because it involved African Australian young people, and because I try to be conscious not to speak on Indigenous issues, since I’m not Indigenous. You know, it really did show that there were some really serious problems.

But what happened, though, was that Victoria Police did take some initiative and try to implement some policies to deal with some of the racist attitudes that resulted in the overpolicing of African young men. So, at that time, you know, in the Flemington and Kensington areas, young men, young black men, were being stopped at least 2.5 times more than the other groups, other young people of other ethnic backgrounds, even though they were committing, at the time, significantly less crime. So, there was specific targeting of young people because there was a larger perception that they were committing more crimes, even though it did not bear out in the statistics eventually. But Victoria Police did try to implement some policies, but it didn’t go far enough to...in terms of documenting their interactions with...with young people, and ticketing those young people so that there is evidentiary basis to trace back if things go wrong.

I think, in this area of police reforms, there is a lot that can be done...including, in my view at least, the independent investigation of misconduct. Because police investigating police throws up some inherent conflict of interest. And in Victoria, for example, we sadly ended with a situation where the head of the professional conduct team of the Victoria Police, who was quit...who quit eventually, and who was kind of supervising this area, was actually making racist statements online. And this was a person that was responsible for...for police professional standards. So, you can see where this will throw up some really big problems, and kind of, I think, entrench a mistrust of police and...in those communities that feel they’re targeted, because they don’t think that they’re going to get any justice, eventually, when police are investigating other police.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just want to bring Meyne in here to speak to that point, because it seems like trust is a really core component of whatever the disintegration of the relationship has been in many circumstances. Can you just take us back to November 10 last year, I think it was? You tweeted a day after Northern Territory Police shot a 19-year-old man, Kumanjayi Walker. Can you share with us a sort of version of what you said that day?

MEYNE WYATT

Um, well, I didn’t say I had a lot of good things to say about them because I came from a place...from emotion. I was angry. This was a...a child. You know what I mean? And he was shot and killed. It doesn’t matter what the circumstances of what happened beforehand – this should never be...this should never be the outcome. And if, like we said about the young fella last week, Auntie’s son, if you’re not equipped... What that question was before. If you’re not equipped with the tools to...to identify how to contain any of these problems, then you shouldn’t be a police officer. Or your training... You need to be...you need to be better trained. Or you shouldn’t be in the force at all. And then, at the same time... Like, to be honest, I don’t have a lot of trust for authority at all, really.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And take us back to your early teens years.

MEYNE WYATT

About what I said about that? Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Well, even beyond that, because I think 10 or 11 is the age at which you were first stopped...

MEYNE WYATT

Mm-hm.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..and searched. What does that do to your perception of...

MEYNE WYATT

Oh, I was terrified.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..a police officer?

MEYNE WYATT

I was terrified. So, now that they... It becomes fear. It becomes anger. And then, when I see, like, things around the world, and when I see my brother boys in my own country, how do you think I’m going to feel? I’m going to be scared from the get-go. Like, it...it just... this happens today. On the weekend, on Saturday, when I marched, I had my lawyer’s name written in permanent marker on my arm. My brother boys had cameras on their shirts, just in case, because it wasn’t “legal” at the end of last week. And then, we had the power of the people, and those two lawyers that stuck up for us, those non-Indigenous brothers and sisters that helped us. Those people made it happen, and we happened...we made it happen because it was the power of the people. And it didn’t happen until the day, because there was too many people. That’s what... And now, people are getting scared and frightened because our non-Indigenous brothers are sticking up for us and are there with us. That’s what that reaction was today.

Who cares about the pandemic? The pandemic is Indigenous lives are dying. Black people are dying. And racism has been going on for millennia. It’s been happening for thousands of years. That’s what racism... That’s the pandemic. That’s why people are marching. That is the reason. It’s because... You can contract it from social distancing. That’s why people are out there, that’s why we’re angry, and that’s why we’re sick of it. We’re tired of it. I’m tired of it. I don’t know how else to put it. What else do you want?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Our next question tonight is a video from Dan Moody in Brisbane.

DAN MOODY, BRISBANE, QLD

A number of Australian premiers have been maintaining societal restrictions as a means to control any outbreaks of COVID-19. Australians have been making hard choices to ensure we beat this virus. People have foregone the opportunity to watch loved ones get married, to hug mums, dads, grandparents and grandkids, to march and commemorate our fallen Anzacs, to farewell best mates at funerals. Last Saturday, with advance notice, we saw tens of thousands of people protest in our capital cities. Why have our premiers and chief health officers allowed protesters to risk the health, welfare and economy of our country?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nakkiah, I know this was a complex decision for you and members of your family to actually go to the rallies in the face of some of the warnings.

NAKKIAH LUI

Mm.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Step us through it.

NAKKIAH LUI

Yeah. So, my parents had a really interesting conversation. Mm. “Interesting”? They’re both 65 years of age, both Aboriginal. Both... My dad has had a triple bypass, chronic health issues. My mum survived cancer. They’ve been in lockdown. And they had a conversation about, “What do we do?” They went out there and they risked their lives because it’s important to fight for this. We might find a vaccine for the pandemic, but racism has been something that this country is founded on, and we haven’t fixed that. We’ve come to you, we’ve come to the country, numerous times – Aboriginal people, leaders, community – with solutions, saying, “Don’t kill us, give us equality.” We...we keep coming to the table and we keep getting pushed aside.

So, I think, you know, when it comes to this idea of having to choose between your health and your liberty, putting the onus on the protesters, as if fighting for their liberty, as if fighting for their community, is wrong, is incredibly unfair. And that’s why people showed out on the weekend. That’s why...you know, in the last week, I think nearly $2 million, or over $2 million, has been crowdfunded for families who currently...who have lost people to...family members to deaths in custody. People are... It’s...it’s... What’s so special about this moment is that it’s... Well, you know, I hate the word ‘special’, but…is that it’s…our non-Aboriginal allies are stepping forward. It’s our country going, “We don’t want to live in this country. We don’t want to live in a world where we have a death sentence just because you’re black.” Because the last time I checked, Australia doesn’t have a death sentence, but it does for Aboriginal people.

So I think, you know, it was a really tough decision for people to...to go on the weekend. I also think we don’t know what the world’s going to look like after COVID-19. We don’t know if we’ll find a vaccine. Protest is an integral part of our democracy. So, instead of our government scolding people for wanting to actually...changing their country for the better, instead of making it difficult for them to engage in democracy, they should be trying to figure out ways of how to help people engage as protesters, and dissent. Because you can’t have democracy if you can’t protest. And what we’re basically saying is, like, well, we can’t use lockdown laws in order to stop people from protesting or having dissent because, for me, that’s a failure of democracy.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

NYADOL NYUON

I understand...

HAMISH MACDONALD

We’re going to take another question now, on a very different subject. This is a video question from Glen Taylor in Beenleigh, Queensland.

GLEN TAYLOR, BEENLEIGH, QLD

Good evening. My parents have always taught me in life to do the right thing by the Taxation Office, especially Dad. Dad said they’d always come after you and they’d always get their man, the Taxation Office. So when I received a $5,000 debt from Centrelink, I was quite concerned about it. So, I ended up contacting the Tax Office about my account and to see if everything was OK there. And the Taxation Office got back to me and said everything was fine with my account, so I got back to Centrelink and I was informed by a member of Centrelink that this debt was called a ‘robodebt’ and Centrelink were going to be paying me this robodebt money back. So, this... Paying this money back has stopped me getting my loans from Centrelink and it’s caused my...me and my family a lot of grief and heartache over this matter, and I want to know what the government’s going to do about it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Andrew Bragg.

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, one of the things we’ve tried to do is to bring the budget back to balance so that we could deal with economic shocks like the coronavirus. Now, that has been achieved, at least before we went into the crisis – we were at budget balance. Now, we always try and spend taxpayers’ money wisely, because the government has no money of its own. All the money the government has, it raises through the taxes. So the income averaging, or robodebt scheme, was one idea we had to try and, you know, ensure that taxpayers’ money was spent wisely. But as you know, that was a flawed scheme and has now been withdrawn, and people are going to be refunded. And it’s also before the courts.

HAMISH MACDONALD

It wasn’t just flawed – it was unlawful.

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, that’s right. So, that’s now before the courts. But the people will be refunded and no doubt compensated in some form.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But this was really a question about something beyond that, which is the hardship that those people have suffered as a result of that whole system. There hasn’t really been anything said by the government about what would be done to address that.

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, that’s because it’s before the courts, and the Attorney-General’s been quite clear that, because it is before the courts, it’s difficult to make... Sorry, did you want to...?

NAKKIAH LUI

Well, yeah. The head of the law firm representing the class action has said that if the government were to say sorry… Because we’re talking about not just hardships – people have lost their lives over this. There needs to be some type of, at least, moral culpability. The head of that law firm has said that if the Coalition were to say sorry, if the government were to say sorry, they wouldn’t be using that in court. So, why haven’t you said sorry?

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, it’s before the courts.

NAKKIAH LUI

But...but the head of the law firm has said that they won’t use the government saying sorry in the courts as...as some type of admission of guilt. The law firm representing the class action has said that.

ANDREW BRAGG

There could be another class action.

NAKKIAH LUI

OK. That’s alright. I’m glad that’s so easy for you. For me, if I worked for a government where people lost their lives because of a robodebt, I would be... I would feel very terrible about it.

JIM CHALMERS

I think, after a government has been sprung illegally taking money from people like Glen, the least they could do is apologise. And there’s a legal reason why they’re not, but there’s also... The main reason they’re not is because the three people with the fingerprints on this – Scott Morrison was an original architect of this debacle, Christian Porter, who’s now the Attorney-General, and of course, Stuart Robert. And that’s why there’s no apology for this, because it goes right to the top of the government.

And for some years now, we’ve been saying to Andrew and his colleagues, “This is unfair.” It turned out it was also illegal. It’s ruined some people’s lives. Some people have taken their lives as a consequence of this debacle. And when you include it with all of the mistakes that this government’s made – robodebt, JobKeeper, Ruby Princess, sports rorts, not getting the bushfire relief money out the door – there’s a pattern of behaviour here which isn’t just some debating point that we have in Parliament. It’s actually hurting real people in real communities like Beenleigh.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nyadol, I can hear you trying to get in. If you could keep it brief so we can get to the next question, that would be great, thank you.

NYADOL NYUON

Am I allowed to get in?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Go for it. Go for it.

NYADOL NYUON

Yeah, if I can just for a minute, like, try and take the politics out of here and focus on what has happened to people. I think, by 2017, it was beginning to get clear that there was some flaw in this system. And then...and then that then was stopped just last year. So, there are people who have had to go through this whole process for years, and this is not just about money. There is the emotional impact that people would have gone through, the anxiety they would have felt, especially when some of the initial letters that were coming out actually had the Federal Police logo on them and were threatening to put people in jail.

So, if we put the politics aside and we accept that there was a group of people that were really wronged and put in a stressful situation over something that has now turned out to be unlawful, I do not see why we should not be apologising. Because what happened here is that the system was kind of using artificial intelligence to just start throwing out, essentially, debts that were not real. These computers will never apologise, but it might go a long way for the human beings in this situation to apologise to this group of people and say, “We’re sorry that this has caused you so much pain.” Sometimes we just need to take the politics out and just look at the people. People have really been through a tough time because of a debt that they did not owe in the first place. I think a simple apology brings back some dignity into this conversation.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question is a video from Andy Yeoh in Hunters Hill, New South Wales.

ANDY YEOH, HUNTERS HILL, NSW

An overbudget is better than an underbudget. So, why is the $60 billion JobKeeper mistake being used as an attack on the current government, which is doing a great job in protecting the health of the citizens, as well as the impact on the... on those affected by the pandemic financially?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jim Chalmers.

JIM CHALMERS

Look, I respectfully disagree with Andy. I think the issue with the $60 billion blunder, which is the biggest mistake that any Treasurer’s ever made in any budget at any point in Australian history – the problem there, and it comes back to what Nyadol was saying – people were turned away from JobKeeper on the basis that the scheme was full. And now we know that it was 3 million workers under what they had anticipated. So, if you’re a casual worker who hasn’t had the same employer for longer than 12 months, if you’re in aviation like the workers at Dnata who’ve been turned away, if you’re one of a whole range – millions of workers – who have been excluded either accidentally or deliberately from the JobKeeper program, which is a really good idea being really badly implemented, then that blunder has actually cost you.

And...and I couldn’t agree more than what was said a moment ago. This isn’t actually about a debating point or about politics, not even about numbers on a spreadsheet on a computer screen. This is what it means for people. I went and stood with Dnata workers at Brisbane Airport, right, last week. They’ve been excluded on the basis of a technicality. And it’s ruining their lives.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But...but to the questioner’s point – the numbers do matter, don’t they? Because we’ve all got to pay the money back at some point. So, his argument, it would seem to me, is that it’s better that we were underbudget rather than $60 billion overbudget...

JIM CHALMERS

But the government said at the beginning that their highest priority was to try and maintain a link between workers and their employers. But then they’ve gone out of their way since then, excluding casuals, excluding Dnata workers. Today, they ended JobKeeper for childcare workers. They did that today, earlier this afternoon. And so the point that we’re making was if you are genuine about trying to make sure that the unemployment queues don’t get even longer than they need to be, then implement your program right. Because this bungle – and not just this one, all the other ones I ran through before, and robodebt and Ruby Princess and sports rorts and bushfire relief – all of these things, these have human consequences. And the bigger mess they make of dealing with this crisis which is right before us right now, the longer the unemployment queues, the more difficult the recovery. And that will have implications for the budget in the long term anyway.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Meyne, did you go for JobKeeper?

MEYNE WYATT

No, I didn’t. I was lucky enough... Halfway through a play and, um...because of COVID, it was taken away. I was fortunate enough that I had made enough money that I could look after myself and I didn’t want to take that away from people that...who couldn’t, really, in that position. But I’m a casual. I’m an actor. I go from job to job. I have a lot of friends in the industry who go from job to job, who don’t have that security, that...that rely on being an actor or are in the industry or, um...hospitality. And so, they’ve had to rely on that for money to pay their rent, really. So it’s really disappointing. And then not only that – I also had a friend who was part of the class action for robodebt. So, the anxiety that that has caused from both of those problems have been – like Nyadol said – it’s a personal thing. It’s...you know, taken a toll.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Andrew Bragg, has this moment – I mean, even this conversation – made you reflect on the human consequences of some of these big issues that perhaps, to politicians, seem like issues, things to be debated, but do very clearly have huge impacts on individual lives?

ANDREW BRAGG

Yes, and we receive the correspondence on a daily basis about all these programs. So, we are conscious of the decisions we make that impact people’s lives. What I would say, though, Hamish, is that from an economic and from a health point of view, this is the country that you want to be in during this pandemic. I think that the economic measures that have been assembled rapidly and have worked very well were always due to be reviewed. And there’s currently a review of JobKeeper...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But as you say, you get a lot of correspondence, though, right? And there’s a lot of people, clearly, that have missed out on JobKeeper...

ANDREW BRAGG

There’s a whole number of schemes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sure. But a lot of people wanted JobKeeper, couldn’t get it for a range of different reasons. Now that there is this underspend, how do you go about justifying to them why they’re still no longer eligible for it?

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, there could be packages in a whole range of sectors, including arts, hospitality, tourism, that have been affected by government shutdowns. But the whole idea of JobKeeper was to keep workplaces together as we track through the six months of the pandemic, as we expected it would be.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And so why did those workplaces that are the arts, for example, not count?

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, we spent $76 billion already in JobKeeper in the arts. And we’ll spend more than that through additional packages into the arts, so... I mean, we haven’t tried to leave anyone behind. We’ve tried to create an economy-wide package in the middle of a pandemic with a view to review it in July, which we’re planning to do. So, I think we’ve tried to build the plane and fly it simultaneously, and it’s been, comparatively, very successful.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Let’s take our next question tonight. It’s from Liz Swain in Coles Bay, Tasmania.

LIZ SWAIN, COLES BAY, TAS

Hi. We’re self-funded retirees in our 70s and are currently planning a $50,000 renovation to our primary residence that appears to meet all the general guidelines of the HomeBuilder package. However, we could never afford a $150,000 upgrade. In support of regional Australians instead of just the big end of town, why can’t the $25,000 grant be scaled for cheaper upgrades, as this contribution will be just as relevant in the local community of the east coast of Tasmania?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Andrew Bragg.

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, clearly, in Sydney, where the average house price is $1.1 million, a $150,000 renovation is often the only opportunity people have to upgrade a house.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But that’s a question from regional Tasmania...

ANDREW BRAGG

So, clearly, there are disparities across the country. But that is a very common scenario here in my state of New South Wales. Now, this is designed as a scheme to create demand in the construction sector, which has been hit. So, the bigger the job, the more people you’re likely to employ...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, are you saying it’s really only targeted at areas where there are more expensive properties?

ANDREW BRAGG

Well, no, it’s designed to create demand across the economy. And in many states, like New South Wales and Victoria, where there is a real need to move on demand now, this package, I think, will obviously have high take-up.

JIM CHALMERS

I’m sorry, that’s... I mean, if the advice to Liz is she’s got to move to Randwick, I mean, that’s ridiculous. I mean, Liz makes a very serious point, which is that she’s been left behind by this scheme, which says that, unless you’ve got a $150,000 reno, we’re not going to look after you, and that’s before we even get to the fact that there’s no public housing in this building industry package that was released in the last week or two. I mean, this is... You know, with respect, Andrew, this is extraordinarily out of touch to say to Liz from Tasmania that the policy has been geared towards the more expensive market of Sydney. What does that mean for Liz?

I mean, Liz is just one of the many people who has been left behind by the poor design of HomeBuilder and JobKeeper and all of the other examples that we’ve run through, and this is the problem here. You know, the Prime Minister says, “We’re all in this together” – but not if Liz has only got 50 grand to spend on a reno, not if you work at Dnata, not if you work in arts and entertainment. For “all in this together” to actually mean something, we need to listen to people like Liz or people who need public housing, or people who’ve been working for someone for 11 months, not 12 months, because these people should matter just as much as the people who can afford a 150,000-grand reno in inner Sydney.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, our next question tonight is from Boxuan Ding.

BOXUAN DING

I think I quite agree with the Chinese government’s claim, ‘cause the Australian government keeps saying that racial discrimination mentioned by China has no basis or statistics. I beg to differ. As a matter of fact, a large number of Asian students are actually verbally or physically abused, even when they are walking on the street or shopping in the supermarket. However, most of them do not know where and who to report these issues. Why does the Australian government keep saying Chinese government is not based on facts?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nyadol, who do you side with here – the Chinese government, or the Australian government – on this question?

NYADOL NYUON

Well, I do think that even just looking at some of the incidents that happened during...when coronavirus became a clear public health issue, the attacks on Asian Australians at shopping centres, sometimes even at their place of work, were quite obvious and undeniable, so I do think that there is some argument to be made that, indeed, people experience racism. And I do think that, perhaps, you know...it might not occur to other people, but racism is...it can be a daily experience for people of colour in this country. And I know that’s an uncomfortable truth to say, because the moment you say that, there is a defensive reaction that you’re trying to paint Australia as a racist country and that everybody in this country is racist, and I think that really forecloses any reasonable debates about the extent of racism and racist abuse that is targeted at people who are people of colour in this country.

That said, though, I think that it is hard to move away from knowing that the statement by the Chinese government did come after Australia had...was going to introduce some policy around foreign investment, and, therefore, it’s hard to then, I suppose, just accept that it’s a coincidence that that statement came soon after that. So, if you look at it reasonably, I think there are issues on both sides, and these issues do need to be resolved, because part of our economic recovery in Australia depends a lot on foreign students coming in – it’s going to be a part of our recovery going back and developing that market space, and so how we treat Chinese Australians, how we treat Asian Australians, or even how we treat international students who come here, is a really big statement about who we are and whether we’re welcoming enough for people to feel safe and secure in this country.

So these things, of course, are sensitive, they’re matters dealing with two nations, both of which have entrenched interests – Australia, we depend, as a matter of trade, on China – and so, of course, there are going to be...they need to be dealt with sensitively, but I think both sides, you know, have to admit, to some degree, that there is an argument that one can attach on, on the side of saying that, “Yes, Asian Australians experience racism” and on the side of saying that, “Perhaps there is a political agenda, as well, about the timing of this claim.”

HAMISH MACDONALD

Andrew Bragg, I noticed you tweeted some time back when 16 prominent Asian Australians put out...or Chinese-background Australians put out a letter calling for support and an end to these racist attacks on Asian Australians, and you said it really did worry you that they had got to the point where they felt the need to do this.

ANDREW BRAGG

Yeah...

HAMISH MACDONALD

You obviously observe that this is a significant problem?

ANDREW BRAGG

These are people that I know from all walks of life who are Asian Australians, and they are worried about, you know, the spate of attacks that they’ve had to endure in the workplace, in the street. And so the Prime Minister has called this out very strongly and said that the Chinese-Australian community has done more than almost any other part of the society to protect our country against the coronavirus, because, of course, after Chinese New Year, they self-isolated, and so I think, you know, we have to thank them very much for protecting our country. And I just want to make this point – the coronavirus has nothing to do with Chinese Australians, it has nothing to do with Asian Australians. It is a...it is a virus. It has nothing to do with any of our citizens.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, in a sense, you’re acknowledging the same point that the Chinese government is making.

ANDREW BRAGG

Yeah, but I’m not making the same point the Chinese government is making. I’m making a point that there have been some attacks on Chinese and Asian Australians which have been, in the main, isolated and, you know, there is not a campaign to stop or to be...you know, nasty from official sources to Asian Australians. And in fact, the Prime Minister, the ministry, and we’ve even run a campaign, which I saw on bus stops today, saying that racism is wrong and that if people do experience any racism, that they should get in touch with the Human Rights Commission, so, you know, from the Prime Minister down, I think we’ve been very strong in saying, you know, “This has got nothing to do with Chinese Australians,” so I don’t accept that I’m agreeing with the Chinese government. Just to be clear!

HAMISH MACDONALD

I’m sure you wouldn’t! Meyne, we started this program tonight by talking about some hard truths, and it’s been an incredibly tumultuous year for Australia, for the world. I just wonder whether you could offer an observation as to whether you think this is a moment of reckoning, whether we are actually fronting up or facing up to some of the...the more difficult realities of our culture and the space that we share as a community?

MEYNE WYATT

It has to. I think it has to. It’s long overdue. This is something that should have happened a very long time ago. But if your... If the country is based on the theft of a sovereign nation – of Aboriginal people – and a First Fleet that comes over and steals a nation, and then, from then on, this foundation base of racism, then how...it was never going to be a lovely place to live in...for anybody.

NYADOL NYUON

I... Sorry, could I just say...add something? I do agree that I think this is an opportunity for us, as a nation, to really reflect inwards about some of the things that have really cost Indigenous people and other people of colour to not have...to not enjoy the kind of Australia that we say we have. This is why, even though I did have some...you know, I did understand the concern of those people who were against the protests because they thought that we were undoing all the good work that was done to flatten the curve and prevent unnecessary death, I was firmly, firmly in support of the protests, because what they were saying is something that black children – you know, Indigenous children – need to hear.

And unfortunately, I don’t think Indigenous children and black children have heard that enough from our leaders. In America, Barack Obama gave a speech to young people confirming to them that they matter. And young black people – wherever they are – need to understand that they do matter and that the comments that are dismissive of their experience and their pain and their anguish and their anger are not a statement about who they are, they’re a statement about our inability to be courageous enough to look at racism in its face and say the damage it has done to our country.

I think Professor Megan Davis said it really well when she said, “Saturday was not just a mere protest. It was a movement for Australian people to build a better future.” What people are asking for is really not to change Australia into something that is against white or black – it is simply to demand that we rush as much to justice, and perhaps stop being so judgemental all the time, when we see a group of people say, “This is our pain, please listen.”

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think we will just about leave the conversation there for tonight, but we’re going to end the program in a rather different way this evening – we’re going to give our last word to Meyne Wyatt. So, to you, Meyne, thank you very much indeed for your part in the conversation. We’ll let you take your position now. And thanks to the rest of our panel – Nakkiah Lui, to Andrew Bragg, to Nyadol Nyuon, and to Jim Chalmers as well.

And I should say a huge thankyou to the families that have joined us in the audience tonight. We’re so grateful to you for coming along and for sharing your stories, and we pay our respects to you and to your families as well. So, thank you. And thank you to you, as well, at home, for sharing your questions.

Please join me next week. We’re going to explore something very different – the future of sport. Among others, we’ll be joined by the bosses of the two biggest sporting codes in the country – Gillon McLachlan from the AFL and Andrew Abdo from the NRL.

It’s been a big discussion tonight. We’re going to leave you with something to reflect on. This is a monologue from Meyne Wyatt’s recent play about black identity and police brutality. This is Meyne Wyatt, City Of Gold.

MEYNE WYATT

I’m always gonna be your black friend, aren’t I? That’s all anybody ever sees. I’m never just an actor, I’m always an Indigenous actor. Hey, I love reppin’, but I don’t hear old Joe Bloggs over here being called ‘white Anglo-Saxon actor’ blah-di-blah. I’m always in the black show, the black play. I’m always the angry one, the tracker, the drinker, the thief, but sometimes I just want to be seen for my talent, not my skin colour, not my race. I hate being a token, a box to tick, part of some diversity angle.

“Oh, what are you whingeing for? You’re not a real one anyway. You’re only part.” What part, then? My foot? My arm? My leg? You’re either black or you’re not. You want to do a DNA test? Come suck my blood.

“How are we to move forward if we dwell on the past?” That’s your privilege. You get to ask that question. Ours? We can dance and we’re good at sport. You go to weddings, we go to funerals.

No, no, no, no, you’re not your ancestors. It’s not your fault you have white skin. But you do benefit from it. You can be OK. I have to be exceptional. I mess up, I’m done – there’s no path back for me, there’s no road to redemption. Being black and “successful” comes at a cost, you take a hit whether you like it or not. Because you want your blacks quiet and humble. You can’t stand up, you have to sit down.

Ask the brother boy Adam Goodes. A kid says some racist shit – not ignorant, racist. Calling a blackfella an ape? Come on, man, we was flora and fauna before 1967... No, actually, we didn’t even exist at all. But he got it – this was a kid, this was a “learning moment”, he taught that kid a lesson. But did they like that, a black man standing up for himself? Nah, they didn’t like that. “You shut up, boy. You stay in your lane. Any time you touch a ball, we’re gonna boo your arse.” So he showed them a “scary” black, throwing imaginary spears and shit, and did they like that? Oh, nah, nah, nah, nah, they didn’t like that. Every arena, every stadium, they booed him. “It’s ‘cause of the way the flog plays football.” Bullshit! No-one booed him the way they booed him until he stood up and said something about race. The second he stood up, everybody came out of the woodworks to give him shit. And what? He’s supposed to sit there and take it?

Well, I tell you right now, Adam Goodes has taken it, his whole life he’s taken it. I’ve taken it. No matter what, no matter how big, how small, I’ll get some racist shit on a weekly basis and I’ll take it. You know, it used to be that in-your-face “you boong”, “you black dog coon” kind of shit, “gonna chase you down the ditch with my baseball bat” skinhead shit when I was 14 years old. But, nah, we’ve come forward, we’re progressive, we’re gonna give you that small, subtle shit, the shit that’s always been there but it’s not that obvious, in-your-face shit, it’s the “Oh, we can’t be seen to be racist” kind of shit. Security guard following me around the store, asking to search my bag. That ‘walking up to the counter first and being served second or third, or last’ kind of shit. That ‘hailing down a cab and watching it slow down to look at my face and then drive off’.

More than once. More than twice. More than once-twice on any one occasion. Yeah, that shit I’ll get weekly. Sometimes, I’ll get days in a row if I’m really lucky. And that’s the kind of shit that I’m letting them think they’re getting way with, because, to be honest, I can’t be bothered. I can’t be bothered teaching their ignorant arses on a daily basis, I don’t have the energy or the enthusiasm. It’s exhausting and I like living my life.

But then on occasion, when you caught me on a bad day where I don’t feel like taking it, I’ll give you that angry black you’ve been asking for and I’ll tear you a new arsehole – not because of that one time, because of my whole life. At least Adam danced and they still pissed and moaned. But it’s not about that one time, it’s about all those times. And seeing us as animals and not as people – that shit needs to stop. Black deaths in custody – that shit needs to stop.

I don’t want to be what you want me to be. I want to be what I want to be. Never trade your authenticity for approval. Be crazy. Take a risk. Be different. Offend your family. Call them out. Silence is violence. Complacency is complicit. I don’t want to be quiet. I don’t want to be humble. I don’t want to sit down!