Calling It Out

Panellist %
Tanya Hosch 25
Shane Fitzsimmons 24
Alexander Downer 20
Warren Mundine 17
Grace Tame 13

HAMISH MACDONALD

Survivors, leaders, people changing the world. Tonight you’ll hear some powerful stories from remarkable Australians. It’s a new year. We’re on at a new time. Welcome to Q+A.

Hey, there. Welcome to the program. Joining me on the show: Australian of the Year Grace Tame; the man who guided us through the summer bushfires, Shane Fitzsimmons; Indigenous leader Warren Mundine; social inclusion advocate and AFL executive Tanya Hosch is here; and live from Adelaide, former Foreign Minister Alexander Downer. Would you please make all of them feel welcome.

Remember, you can screen us on iview and join us on all the socials. Please do keep it respectful. We’ll have live music for you later in the show. But our first question tonight comes from Rebecca Green.

REBECCA GREEN

Thanks, Hamish. It was hard to watch Craig Kelly barking untrue accusations and conspiracy theories at Tanya Plibersek in the halls of Parliament House. How do we respond to manipulative misinformation from politicians, and in turn our fellow citizens, now that we’ve seen the mayhem at the US Capitol unleashed by Donald Trump’s discourse?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alexander Downer?

ALEXANDER DOWNER, FORMER LIBERAL FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER

Well, thanks very much for the question. Look, in a liberal democracy you always get a variety of different views expressed, including by political representatives. I mean, they’re elected, in our case, by their own constituents. In other countries, the democracies and systems are a bit different. But you get people who reflect all sorts of different views, and I think we’ve got to be very careful not to introduce a kind of...what nowadays is called cancel culture, where people are not allowed to say this or that.

And in the case of Craig Kelly, I did watch the clip of him and Tanya Plibersek. I’m not sure that it’s quite the way the conversation panned out, as you put it. But, obviously, within the context of Australian politics and the Australian government, the government wants a single message to be transmitted to the Australian community about the management of the COVID issue, and variations from that run the risk of creating confusion. But I don’t think people are going to turn to Craig Kelly as somebody who will inspire them or give them advice in terms of how to manage COVID.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tanya Hosch, is there a difference, though, if you’re a political leader, between giving an opinion and saying something that’s just false, when it’s a matter of life and death?

TANYA HOSCH, SOCIAL INCLUSION ADVOCATE

Rebecca, thanks for your question. I think that we do have to be clear about the facts when it comes to things that will impact on life and death. I think the facts are important. Australia has navigated COVID incredibly well, compared to lots of other parts of the world, and we’ve still lost lives. So I think the responsibility and the civic-mindedness of, you know, the majority of this country has been overwhelmingly positive in terms of the way we’ve been able to deal with this.

I think it’s unfortunate as well that, you know, a disagreement about behaviour is...can be so complex and also, you know, sometimes aggressive. And I think that, you know, Alexander’s point about cancel culture I think is something we really do need to think about. Because you’ve got to always...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But is it the same thing, though? If a politician’s standing up and saying something that’s just not true? Is that cancel culture if you push back on it?

TANYA HOSCH

Oh, no, I don’t mean in relation to that. But I think, in terms of the discourse between people who are disagreeing, I think that’s what I’m referring to. But certainly, when it comes to life and death, when it comes to public health, when it comes to the lives of people and their lived circumstances and their ability to live a strong, healthy life, then absolutely those things have to be addressed.

And it’s also just incoherent in relation to, I think, the amount of effort that the government...and money and resources that are going into the management of this, and the education campaign that’s ahead of us still. I’m not sure that we’ll ever be in a post-COVID world now. This might be here to stay, and various, you know, veins of it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Warren, you grew up around people with polio, kids in calipers, as I understand it. What do you make of it when you hear an elected politician spruiking this stuff?

WARREN MUNDINE, CHAIRMAN, AUSTRALIAN INDIGENOUS EDUCATION FOUNDATION

Well, it goes a bit further than that. You know, like, anti-vaxxers and people like that, I have major concerns about, ‘cause I come from the North Coast of New South Wales – it has the lowest rates of vaccine take-up. It’s quite frightening when you see situations like that.

In regard to Craig Kelly, I couldn’t have missed it on TV, or even social media. My computer was going mad with all the stuff. It wasn’t a very good look. It’s only one person of the parliament. You know, there’s 300 other people in that parliament. He represents his constituency. I like to have free...people have their say, because it gives you an opportunity to challenge them and it gives you an opportunity to break down what it is – what is truthful, what is not truthful. If you have a situation where people are silent, I think that just starts building this resentment, and people start doing things in the background and in the quiet.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, I want to know if that works in practice. Alexander, March last year, you tweeted, “This isn’t the black death. Vulnerable people should be very careful. The rest, get on with normal life.” There was a huge blowback. Did that do to you what Warren is describing? Did you re-evaluate the view you’d expressed?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

Well, this was in March last year. Look, I think people are making a huge mistake if they focus public debate on one platform called Twitter, which I can absolutely assure you I don’t. I think what we do need is to ensure that we do have proper public debate, and not work on the basis that there is an absolute truth today and people aren’t allowed to diverge from that truth. And we have moved… I mean, this has come out of America, by the way, and it’s much less the case in Australia than it is in America. But we have moved in to this sort of world of cancel culture, where people are furiously denounced for saying things. I mean, there’s a lot of denunciation of Craig Kelly here. What did he actually say that people are denouncing and that they don’t agree with? Well, I think, generally speaking – I mean, I think it’s a problem for the government by the way – but I think, generally speaking, if somebody says something that people disagree with, they should engage in the debate, not engage in trying to close down the debate and not engage – let me add this – not engage in appalling personal abuse, which is what you see on Twitter.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Grace, I can see you nodding furiously there.

ALEXANDER DOWNER

It’s just a sewer. It’s just a sewer. It’s a sewer, the...Twitter.

GRACE TAME, AUSTRALIAN OF THE YEAR

Well, I think that, in any space, you need healthy debate. It’s more about how you deliver opinions, I think. And that seems to be the issue that people are having with Craig Kelly here, is that it’s the way that he expressed his differing opinion, or differing stance. And... Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Shane Fitzsimmons, you’re part of, I suppose, an army of individuals in Australia that over the last year have been appearing alongside politicians, delivering factual information, accurate information, in times of crisis. And we can all think of doctors and professors and emergency leaders. How do you calibrate yourself and your message when you know you’re standing next to a politician that might have a slightly different motivation or objective to you?

SHANE FITZSIMMONS, FORMER NSW RFS COMMISSIONER

Answering both of those questions, I think misinformation and wrong information and reckless information needs to be called out. That’s the bottom line. And it’s particularly the case in times of crisis or uncertainty. And if you look at the last 18 months or so, with bushfire crises across New South Wales and other parts, and now COVID, particularly with people in positions of profile, whether they’re politicians or other sector leaders or public sector leaders or private industry leaders, you’ve got to be conscious about your comments and your narrative. And in times of uncertainty, we are trying to, as collective leaders, build trust and confidence. And the core to building trust and confidence is with accurate, honest information – not just about what we know, but what we don’t know and what we’re uncertain about – so we’re actually taking people on the journey of what we know, what we don’t know, why we’re doing this, why we’re not doing that, and, most importantly, what do we want others to do. And in the process of doing that, whether it was through the fires, with the Premier or the Prime Minister from my experience, and our observation now with our medical specialists and the political leaders, we are seeing unity when it comes to evidence base, sharing open, honest information.

You go back two years, five years, ten years – how often were we tuning in to, with interest, press conferences on a daily basis to get the latest advice and the latest updates, but, more than that, having a scrum of journalists and camera crews and radio outlets all tuning in and asking questions of those leaders over and over again, often lasting half an hour to an hour? It’s because they want an honest and clear dialogue about what we know, what we don’t know and what we’re going to do collectively to get through it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, in your view, is it better to air the misinformation and challenge it?

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Yeah, absolutely. And during the fires I had to call out a number of occasions where there were some...what I regarded as irresponsible and reckless callouts of information – political and otherwise. and the reason I did it, it goes to the core of compromising that trust and confidence you are trying to build and, as Tanya indicated, particularly the case when you’re making life-and-death decisions, when you’re seeking to advise and empower people to make considered decisions, that’s going to go to the core of improving the probability of saving their lives, their family lives and, in our case, property and businesses. So, if you’ve got wrong information, you’ve got to call it out and you’ve got to challenge them to say, “Put up the facts, tell me where this is the case,” because it ain’t on my script and ain’t in our experience. And we did that around funding claims and all manner of things, and how the fires were being started. So, you name it. There was lots of misinformation. We had to call it out. And the key is, in the firefighting experience, there’s only so much weight you can put into the operational effectiveness, so the suppression. The next big lever you’re relying on, like we are with the public health crisis, is accurate, timely, up-to-date information and warnings, so that people can be informed and make the right decisions. And misinformation, particularly from those in positions of influence or positions of status, needs to be called out, and needs to be called out robustly.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, let’s take...let’s take our next question. It comes from Anne Matheson.

ANNE MATHESON

Alexander Downer, you played a vital role in exposing Russian interference in the US election. As a VIP whistleblower, did you experience any backlash?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

Um... (LAUGHS) That’s a great question. It sort of goes to what Shane was just saying, by the way, which is that, with conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories, I think the wisest thing to do is to confront them and argue with them, not try to close them down and try to close down debate. I think that is very counterproductive, and it only helps them. So, I had, as you suggest in your question, an experience in the lead-up to the last...the election before last, the 2016 US president...presidential election. I had an experience where one of the Trump staffers told me that the Russians had information on Hillary Clinton, which could be used in the lead-up to the election to Trump’s advantage. And I told the Americans about this – as in, I told the American embassy in London about this. Why? Because the idea of the Russians directly interfering in an American election really worried me. I thought it was, if it were true – and it was for others to determine whether it was true – if it were true, I think it would have been absolutely outrageous. I mean, it is true that for four years I’ve been subject to the most remarkable conspiracy theories – how I worked for Hillary Clinton, I worked for the Democrats, I’m a leftie and I’m a communist. I mean, and anybody who knows anything about me who’s watching this program would know I’m not a leftie and a communist. Honestly, I’m not.

HAMISH MACDONALD

(LAUGHS) This is your opportunity to correct the record, Alexander Downer.

ALEXANDER DOWNER

(LAUGHS) Exactly. But, you know, that I was conspiring with Hillary Clinton, with the FBI, with...I worked for MI6, ASIS, the Italian intelligence, for some reason or other Ukrainian intelligence. A whole book was written about this. You just have to argue against it, you know. Not cancel it. Just argue against it. Obviously, I mean, everybody in Australia knows this would be complete nonsense. But it’s amazing, in America, how these kinds of conspiracies gain traction, and that gained a lot of traction in America for a while. (LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

I do want to ask...

ALEXANDER DOWNER

But I lived through it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I do want to ask you, though, none of that was enough to stop you writing a column before this most recent election, saying that, through gritted teeth, you would vote for Trump. You must be embarrassed by that, given everything that’s happened since?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

Of course I’m not embarrassed by what I think. You may not agree with me, Hamish, but I’m not embarrassed...

HAMISH MACDONALD

The events around the Capitol Building? Surely, you...

ALEXANDER DOWNER

I’m not embarrassed by what I think. I... My...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Surely that changed your mind?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

The election was out of the way when all that happened, of course. I didn’t write the column after the election, I wrote it before the election.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sure. And so I’m asking...

ALEXANDER DOWNER

No, my view was not based on the Trump...

HAMISH MACDONALD

...did that change your view of him?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

No. I’ve never liked him as a person, I’ll be honest with you. I’ve never liked Donald Trump. He’s not my sort of person. If I had to go on a camping trip with Donald Trump, I think I’d make my excuses and find something else to do, honestly. Wash my hair, rearrange my sock drawer, something like that. I don’t like Donald Trump as a person. But for me as an Australian, what mattered were his policies. I think his foreign policy... What he said wasn’t always very good, but aspects of his foreign policy were quite good in the Indo-Pacific region, which is what’s important to us. And in terms of the economy, up until the COVID crisis, which he badly mishandled...but up until the COVID crisis, the American economy was doing pretty well, and he had done some quite useful things to stimulate the American economy. So that was my motivation. But no, don’t get me wrong – I don’t like him.

HAMISH MACDONALD

(LAUGHS) I think you made that clear. Tanya Hosch, Do you think it’s possible to get on top of conspiracy theories once they’re off and running?

TANYA HOSCH

I think there’s people out there who enjoy a good conspiracy. My father was one of those people. Like, he just loved a good conspiracy. So we used to have lots of debates growing up, around the kitchen table. I think it’s really important to question things and to know the difference between the two. I think it’s really important to make sure that we’re all exploring as much information for ourselves as we can, using our own personal agency to go through things. But now we live in a world where you’re flooded with information, and you could spend all of your time just trying to get across all of the information out there. I think it’s really important to test it against people who are credible and expert in their field. Conspiracy theories can be incredibly dangerous, and I think we’ve seen that play out in the United States very recently.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, this is not so much a question, but rather a message, from Susan Dekker.

SUSAN DEKKER, ZILLMERE, QLD

Hi, Hamish and the panel, and in particular I’d like to welcome Grace Tame. Grace, what wonderful work you’re doing. I had tears of joy when I heard you speak. I am a 73-year-old woman and I have been dealing with the pain and the stress in my body and in my heart for all those years. I, like you, was a small girl, and it was my stepfather that ruined my life forever. Keep working, keep encouraging young people to speak, and thank you.

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Absolutely.

GRACE TAME

Oh, my God.

HAMISH MACDONALD

No doubt you’ve heard a lot of messages like that over the last few weeks. Did you expect it?

GRACE TAME

Yes and no. Yes, because I know that there are so many survivors out there. But no, because I didn’t anticipate the volume. (CHUCKLES) My phone has been going off. And it just goes to show how important it is that we continue working towards normalising speaking out. Because there are so many stories that we haven’t heard, and it’s in those stories that we find the truth. And to our, you know, earlier discussion about information out there, we need to hear from lived-experience survivors, because it’s in their stories that we find the truth that can help us move forward. And...look, my heart goes out to you, Susan, and to everyone out there watching who’s a survivor. I’m with you. Right?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Grace, I do want to ask you a lot of questions, but can you just show us your tattoo? Can you hold that up for the camera?

GRACE TAME

(LAUGHS) Look, I’ve got two, I have to admit. I’ve got one on both of my hands. One of them says, “Eat my fear.”

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can you show that to the camera?

GRACE TAME

Oh... There you are. The other one says... (LAUGHS) ...oh, hang on – “Don’t drink my beer.” (LAUGHS) Which totally undermines me completely, doesn’t it?

HAMISH MACDONALD

But the “Eat my fear” – just explain it.

GRACE TAME

Well, I guess it’s sort of about acknowledging, you know, fears and negativity that’s naturally out there in the world, but being prepared to swallow that, and doing things anyway despite that, and actually converting that negative energy into positivity that can fuel you throughout your life.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Not every Australian watching will know your story.

GRACE TAME

Mm.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can you catch everyone up on how you got to this point of becoming the Australian of the Year?

GRACE TAME

So, does this show go for 11 years?

HAMISH MACDONALD

No. (LAUGHS)

GRACE TAME

Well, to summarise, I suppose, when I was 15 years old, I was preyed upon by my 58-year-old maths teacher. And he groomed me for a period of months, and then started to sexually abuse me – he actually raped me repeatedly, uh, at school. And that went on for quite a while, until the end of 2010. And then, early 2011, I reported him to police, and he was convicted of...well, the charge is now called the persistent abuse of a minor. It used to be called maintaining a sexual relationship with a person under the age of 17. But, anyway, I, uh... It’s... Sorry – my story is so tangental, it’s very hard to summarise. There’s lots of layers of injustice, because...

HAMISH MACDONALD

In Tasmania, though, you were not allowed to...

GRACE TAME

That’s right.

HAMISH MACDONALD

...speak for yourself?

GRACE TAME

Yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Why?

GRACE TAME

Yeah. Well, Section 194K of Tasmania’s Evidence Act previously made it illegal for survivors of child sexual abuse to self-identify in the media, even with their consent, and even after they were of age – you know, adult. And when I found out about that, because I was... In 2015 – fast-forward to 2015 – myself and an incredible journalist by the name of Nina Funnell were working on using my case as kind of a way to shed light on the issues of child grooming and the lasting impacts of child sexual abuse. And right before we were about to share the articles that we had been working on, we discovered that there was this law that made it illegal to do so for survivors. And I saw that as another example of a structure in our society that further disempowered victims and gave more power to the predators. Because predators have a tendency to manipulate the narrative. In fact, that sort of manipulation characterises a lot of the psychological manipulation of these crimes. And so it just...yeah, it didn’t seem right. And Nina and I... Well, Nina created the #LetHerSpeak campaign. And I lent my story, as the initial story, and then we were later joined by 16 other brave campaign survivors, and a team of lawyers, Marque Lawyers, and End Rape on Campus, and some other partner organisations, and we...we just relentlessly campaigned for years. And the law was eventually changed, actually – last year, in April.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want to bring in... I want to introduce you to someone who is here tonight. Jane Matts is in the audience. Jane, I know you are a survivor yourself. You’re an advocate in this space as well. What did it mean to you seeing Grace named Australian of the Year, and particularly that speech she gave on receiving it?

JANE MATTS

The first thing I recognised with you, Grace... And congratulations. Amazing Grace – absolutely. It’s how hard it is actually to tell your story. And for someone to be able to tell their story, and to make such significant change to a system that silences people, is an amazing step. And to have Australia recognise that, I am just so grateful. And I’m so grateful for where that will take us. And I’m so grateful for where that will take advocates like us, who can support you. And there’s so many of us who would love to work with you, Grace, and to be able to moving these issues of silencing children in particular, forwards, so that we create change in our country. It is so needed.

GRACE TAME

Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What’s your question?

JANE MATTS

My question. As a survivor and advocate in the DV space, I work in so many systems that silence victims – Family Court being one of them. Grace, how many...how shocked were you when you first realised that the court system made it impossible to speak out about your abuse, and what steps must survivors take to be heard?

HAMISH MACDONALD

I do want to bring the rest of the panel in, but Grace?

GRACE TAME

(SIGHS) I mean, it goes back to what I said about the importance of truth. You know, It’s so important that we can speak, because when victims are silenced... I mean, the abuse itself is characterised by degradation, disempowerment and, you know, feeling like you have no voice, you have no say, and that saying no doesn’t matter, it falls on deaf ears, because abusers don’t...they don’t care. Right?

JANE MATTS

Absolutely.

GRACE TAME

So it is, it’s so important. So, it’s... But it’s...more so than anything, it’s important that we empower each other. You know, I’m incredibly proud of Australia for embracing this issue. I’m still sort of in a state of disbelief – you know, from going...from being a silenced abuse survivor to having this platform that I intend to use to welcome all the other survivors to join me in talking about this, like we talk about mental health. Right? It’s so important. The second part of your question was about... Could you repeat it, sorry?

JANE MATTS

The steps survivors need to take to be able to be heard. What do we need to do, in your opinion, to be able to move forward?

GRACE TAME

We need to continue the conversation. That’s where it starts. It starts with opening up and connecting with each other, really. It’s as simple as that. And I think where I get stumped sometimes when I’m asked these questions is, these are not explosive revelations – these are common-sense ideas. We need to be there for each other. you know, it’s OK to not know how to respond. These are very serious, heavy issues, of course, and they’re very uncomfortable. But I always try to remind people that...bystanders or people who are listening to a survivor who’s disclosing, that there is nothing more uncomfortable than the abuse itself. And it is in fact a great privilege to listen to a disclosure, because, as you identified, it is – it’s so hard to tell the story. And you can see me sometimes when I’m talking in these pressured situations, my...my trauma brain just wants to shut off, because it just doesn’t want me to revisit this topic. So it’s about encouraging each other to create these safe conditions, these welcoming conditions in society, where people do feel like it’s OK, and it’s not shameful, to talk about the things that they’ve been through. We’re all human beings – did we forget that? (CHUCKLES)

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want to bring in Shane, ‘cause I know this is something you talk about a lot with the RFS – people being able to talk about the sort of tender bits, the difficult bits.

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Mm-hm. Yeah, absolutely. And I can do it in two aspects, Hamish. And just wonderfully inspirational – I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Grace a couple of times now and hearing this story. And the voices being heard is so important. And one of the beautiful things I heard in Grace’s address on the Australian of the Year Awards was, it was a male teacher who so horribly wronged her and abused her, but it was also a male teacher that she was able to open up to and speak to, who believed her and trusted her and supported her.

And I know I’ve been very open about mental health and emotions and feelings, but two dimensions. In my role as commissioner, we identified a number of cases where senior officers of our organisation were involved in grooming and abusing young people – young people that were joining up as cadets and members. And when you get the advice, your ability to hear that and act properly is really important – going straight to authorities, straight to police – and then it’s a very complex process, because you’ve got to build the evidence base and all those sorts of things. But once that matter is dealt with... And the good thing is the perpetrators ended up in prison, and got what they deserved.

But, as a leader of that organisation who met with young people and, more importantly, their loved ones – their parents and their grandparents – when you’re sitting in a room and they are holding you accountable because it happened on your watch, in your organisation, and what are you going to do about it, you’ve got to sit there and listen, you’ve got to sit there and absorb and understand that something has gone horribly wrong here, and what do we do? And we ended up involving the Office of the Children’s Guardian to do a full audit on our arrangements and our programs. And the natural instinct is, “Well, do we do cadets anymore? Is it too difficult?” All these sorts of things. The compelling message was, “Keep going with your program. For goodness sake, don’t give up on young people, because the benefits of the programs and the involvement and the growth far outweighs the odd example of a perpetrator.”

But the second aspect is, as I’ve travelled all around during the...during this last 12 months, experiencing in the bushfires, I’ve been very open about conversations I’ve had with colleagues out of the last fire season, only in the lead-up to last Christmas. Emotions are still very raw and still very real. And I’m going to single out guys here, and I’m one of them. There’s a lot more we need to do, and that we need to own and do better. And when I had a conversation with a particular colleague, he said he was getting support and assistance for what he was experiencing and how he was feeling, and it was making a big difference – he was getting along much better with his wife, the kids, all those sorts of things that come from getting help and support. But when we were about to finish the conversation, he asked me, “Can you promise me something, Shane?” I said, “What’s that, mate?” And he said, “You can’t tell anybody that I’m getting help and getting assistance.” I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “Well, I don’t want anyone to judge me. I don’t want anyone to think that I’m not coping. I don’t want anyone to think that I’m not strong.” And I left that phone call and I went, “Oh, crikey.” I didn’t really say ‘crikey’, but I said, “Oh...”

HAMISH MACDONALD

(LAUGHS)

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

“...is this where we’re at?” You know? ‘Cause it really floored me. Out of everything we’ve been through, I thought, “This is really difficult.” And then, as we travel around with the recovery process, particularly in rural and regional areas, families and communities are remarkably resilient. They deal with the elements, they endure, they’re used to remote and isolated living, all those sorts of things. But they carry this burden of, “I’ll get through this. I’ll carry it.” And the amount of wives and children that come to us and say, “Can someone connect with my husband? Can someone connect with my dad? He’s trying to do it all on his own, and he can’t do it – he’s ageing,” and so on, “and we don’t want the worst to happen. We don’t want him giving up on life.”

And my plea is that, men particularly, we’ve got to give ourselves permission and we’ve got to normalise this conversation, that it’s OK as we build resilience and be strong and develop, but it doesn’t mean we’re free from emotional challenges and distress and anxiety. And the more we can open and talk with each other... “Are you OK?” is a legitimate question. But pausing and listening, and most importantly hearing the response, and following that up and letting them know it’s normal, because we’re having the same issues. We must do more. We must do more. It will help us in the recovery, rebuilding, but most importantly, in the healing process. And there is no shame... There’s this issue around pride and status and reputation about being strong and tough and resilient, but that doesn’t mean we’re free from emotions and impact just like everybody else.

GRACE TAME

Yeah. There’s great strength in vulnerability and admitting weakness at the right times, I think.

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Absolutely.

HAMISH MACDONALD

If any of this raises issues for you, you can contact Respect or Bravehearts...1800 RESPECT, or Bravehearts - those numbers are there right now.

TITLE

Respect

1800 RESPECT

1800 737 732

Bravehearts

1800 272 831

Lifeline

13 11 14

Kids Helpline

1800 55 1800

HAMISH MACDONALD

Some other numbers on the screen as well – Lifeline, and also the Kids Helpline – if you are in need of support.

Tanya Hosch, there is, though, sometimes a penalty for speaking up, for speaking out. You must deal with that all the time.

TANYA HOSCH

Never.

ALL

(LAUGH)

TANYA HOSCH

Yeah, look, I think there always is. There’s always a price that goes along with speaking up. But, you know, it should never stop us from doing it. And I think, you know...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But do you think about it... I mean, you’re in this incredible position on the AFL executive, very challenging set of circumstances, and you are expected to be a voice for all sorts of things and people, and there’s a lot of expectation. Do you pause for thought before you say what you think?

TANYA HOSCH

Oh, look, I think I’d be lying if I said I didn’t. I mean, certainly, you have to pick your fights. You do have to choose what you’re going to burn capital on, because you know that, once you’ve burnt some, it takes a while to build that capital back up before you can then take on the next issue. So you do have to be, I think, judicious about how you use your voice. I think... You know, I think, when I was much younger, you know, I thought I could change the world, and I was, you know, determined that I was going to do that. And then you meet reality and you suddenly realise that it takes more than just your passion and your voice – it takes...it takes a collection of a community, it takes so many things. So I think you do pay a price. And what I’ve learnt over time is that it is your friends, it is sometimes even your enemies, who will be pointing out things to you that you need to know, that you need to prepare yourself for, next time. I think that, you know, I’ve also decided the things that I am always going to speak on and always going to speak up about. Racism is one of those for me. And I think that, you know, those conversations... Grace and I were talking earlier. You know, you can’t deal with a problem you don’t talk about. You can’t address an issue that you don’t articulate. That’s why the silence issue is so significant. It is silence that does hold us back. But we also have to look after ourselves and each other, because those people who do speak out, who do want to challenge, do pay a high price. I have paid a price...

HAMISH MACDONALD

How...?

TANYA HOSCH

...but there’s so many other people in our community who’ve paid a much higher price for their advocacy than I ever will, I feel.

HAMISH MACDONALD

‘Cause I heard you say that you considered not accepting your recognition as South Australia’s South Austral...South Australia’s Australian of the Year. I mean, what penalty have you paid for speaking out? What happens when you do?

TANYA HOSCH

Oh, you know, trolling and, you know... There’s always other people who will do it better than you ever can. There are always people who are just going to have a difference of opinion. And I think we’ve gone from robust debate to some quite nasty behaviour. And Alexander was talking about that earlier. I don’t think that’s helpful. You know, I know my mother always used to say to me, “You never look good making someone else look bad.” Like, you know, I want to be just really focused. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. Doesn’t mean that, you know, there’s some tears in the background. Actually, I cry in front of anyone, so...

HAMISH MACDONALD

(LAUGHS)

TANYA HOSCH

And anyone who’s worked with me would’ve seen that. But I do think that there is a mental health impact. There is a limit to how much you can absorb. And I do think, you know, kindness has become an underrated quality. I think, you know, words of kindness, the text messages – all of those little things are important. But I think what is more important is that we have...we hold really dear the ability to live in a world and in a society where it’s still OK to talk about things that are hard, and it’s important to challenge things that are still not right.

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Mm-hm.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question. It’s a video from Richard Bentley in Mile End, South Australia.

RICHARD BENTLEY, MILE END, SA

My question is to Tanya Hosch. Shouldn’t the AFL be taking a leading role in helping clubs deal with racism and setting a path forward? Clearly, being humble doesn’t coincide with leading an AFL club. I would like to see Heritier Lumumba, Colin Kaepernick, Robbie Muir and Nicky Winmar at the AFL Grand Final coin toss this year – sometimes, pictures speak louder than words.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Before we go to Tanya – Warren Mundine?

WARREN MUNDINE

Look, yeah, pictures DO speak louder than words, and I’m a great believer in symbolism does play a very important role. You know, If you go into a room and there’s no black faces in there, that sends you a message. And then you go in there and you see a room with black faces in there, that sends you a message as well, about being welcomed and stuff. So it’s not a bad idea that you... I, um...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But doesn’t the AFL need more than symbols at this point?

WARREN MUNDINE

Well, they do need more than symbols, but I’m just not...I’m saying that you don’t underestimate symbols. Symbols are so important. You look at Anzac Day, and you look at a whole wide range of other things about symbolism. The important thing for the AFL is that they do have some serious problems to look at. And they not only need to look at them, they need to do actions about them and start cleaning some of this stuff up. I, you know...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But can they do that while Eddie McGuire’s still in charge of a club, do you think?

WARREN MUNDINE

Look, whether Eddie McGuire’s or...Eddie McGuire’s there or not, to me, is not the important part. The important part is, because it’s not all just about Eddie, you know? I know Eddie thinks it’s all about Eddie, but it’s not all about Eddie. (LAUGHS) It’s...

TANYA HOSCH

No comment.

WARREN MUNDINE

(LAUGHS) No comment! Well, you can’t! It’s... But the important thing... Because it goes further than Eddie. You know, if we...if you look at Collingwood, I remember as a young kid dealing with some of the issues they said back in the ‘80s and ‘70s and that, how players... I talked to a lot of Aboriginal players, and the things that had been said to them and how they’d been treated and the abuse... And even though I was a terrible footballer and I never made the top grade, I remember playing in park football and that, and the things that were said to us to put off...you off your game, and the abuse and the racist stuff. And you were... Getting back to your point about being...you know, you’re a male, you’ve got to be stoic, and you’ve just got to keep your mouth shut and just get on with the game and... You can’t... And that left a lot of people broken. And you see a lot of... And you go back in the history, look at Jack Marsh, who played cricket back in the 1920s and that – it totally broke the guy, and he ended up becoming an alcoholic, and he was actually beaten to death in a pub in Orange. And you...you just can’t let these things go on. You’ve got to confront them. You’ve got to deal with them. You’ve got to talk about them, and we’re...not just get caught up with just thinking that, “Oh, we can get rid of one person – that’s going to resolve everything.”

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sure. But, Tanya Hosch, this is a club that says it wants to deal with this and resolve it. I just wonder if you honestly believe it can honestly do that with Eddie McGuire at the top.

TANYA HOSCH

I think that, um... And I want to take Eddie out of it. And I will answer your question, but what I would like to say first is that football clubs, sporting clubs in general, are made up of not just the athletes, but the fans and the staff and a whole range of people. And the thing about this week and what’s gone on – I really wish that we were just using the ‘R’ word more. I wish we were talking about racism, instead of Eddie. Because that is actually the point. And this is the same board that commissioned the report in the first place. And, you know, racism is pervasive, it is everywhere, and the work that Collingwood has committed itself to is important, because what it says is, “This is not pretty, but we’ve got to face up to it.” And, you know, you can’t solve a problem you don’t talk about. And I think that dealing with racism is bigger than just one person, that when Eddie has foreshadowed that he’s leaving the club at the end of this year, dealing with racism at that club will be an ongoing issue.

Because whenever you decide to deal with racism, there is no quick fix. It’s not a matter of just changing the people at the table when you’re talking about systemic racism, and that’s why, you know, I am pleased to be able to be on this panel tonight, is because we’ve got to get back to having the conversation about racism. In Australia, I feel like we very often only have a little bit of the conversation. And then we wait for something else that happens, and we’re all outraged. One of the questions I often ask myself is, “All these people are so outraged about this incident. Where are you the other 364 days of the year?” Because racism is all around us, all the time. And I really want to honour the Aboriginal board member of Collingwood Football Club, Jodie Sizer. She’s a close personal friend, but she’s got enormous expertise, she’s got the lived experience that Grace is talking about. She has played a huge role in making the club face up to these things. And, until you do that, there’s no addressing it. So, whether Eddie is at the table or not, I know there are people who are going to do the work.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alexander Downer, I’m not sure if your audio is working at the moment, but I just saw you playing with your earpiece.

ALEXANDER DOWNER

It is now, yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

It is now. We’re talking about Collingwood, racism in the AFL. Tanya Hosch says, whether Eddie’s there or not, it’s a big challenge. But this is a guy that called Western Sydney “the land of the falafel”, he made the “King Kong” comments in 2013, he defended Sam Newman when he did a blackface performance. How can an organisation led by someone that has done and said those things genuinely move beyond its racist past?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

Well, he’s retiring, as I understand it, as the president of Collingwood this...or chairman of Collingwood, this year. So I guess that will pass within a few months. But this...

HAMISH MACDONALD

It’s a bit longer than that, isn’t it?

TANYA HOSCH

Well, the end of the season.

ALEXANDER DOWNER

Well, as I understand it, it’s this year – the end of the season, perhaps. So I don’t know that getting stuck into one person is going to get us very far. I think the...the bigger issue is the way people are treated when they are part of a football team – you would expect them to be judged by, to use Martin Luther King’s famous words, the content of their character, not the colour of their skin. And particularly in that case, the quality of their play. I reckon most people do. I mean, it’s a minority of people who judge people on racial grounds and make racial slurs. You don’t see it very often. But you do see it occasionally. And it’s important that we do express a fair degree of intolerance towards it, because it’s insulting and rude and offensive and it’s divisive, so... But, you know, Eddie McGuire – well, you know, he will move on, and I don’t think that’s a big issue.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, Shane, I’m interested in your take on this, because we’ve heard all these people saying, “It doesn’t really matter who’s in charge – don’t make it about Eddie.” But there was some institutional racism at the RFS during your time. What did you do, as the leader? How could you impact and influence change as the person at the top?

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

So, a simple answer to that, Hamish, is, whether it’s racism, sexism, any form of discrimination, you’ve got to own the issue, and then ultimately it’s about culture. So...so culture is the key. But changing culture, as they say, is like turning around an ocean liner – you just don’t flick a switch and suddenly it happens. So, in the organisation, we sought to address a set of values, some pretty basic values. But then, more importantly, attached to the values were expected behaviours, and what was going to be tolerated and accepted, and what was not going to be tolerated.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What did you do if they were breached?

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

We’d deal with them. And, as a matter of fact, we borrowed the old General Morrison quote, particularly, you know. And particularly in a hierarchical organisation, where you’ve got leaders at the top and throughout the organisation – “The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.” And there’s a great little book that I used to read my daughters growing up – it was called Who Sank The Boat? by Pam. And it was about a donkey and a sheep and a cow all getting in a rowboat, and every time an animal got in a boat, it said, “Who sank the boat?” And ultimately, the little mouse gets in the boat and flips the whole boat over and everyone’s in the drink. And, whilst it’s a good story for the kids, there’s a leadership lesson in all of it for us, in my view, because... Don’t underestimate the little things. So, our individual and collective responsibility is to call out the inappropriate behaviours, the inappropriate comments, the inappropriate mannerisms.

Deep down, I genuinely believe that most people are not intently racist, sexist, or discriminatory, but they’ve grown up in an era – intergenerational or whatever – where passing comments about colour, about background, about gender – are OK. You’ve got to call it out and say, “It’s no longer OK, and that’s not going to be tolerated. And if you don’t take the lesson, then we’re going to get rid of you out of this organisation and you can go somewhere else where you think you might better belong.” And whilst I was very proud of getting new members every year, I was also very proud, as an organisation, we had a big record of how many we removed every year...

TANYA HOSCH

I’d like to...

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

...because they couldn’t comply with the behaviours.

TANYA HOSCH

If I can, I’d like to go back to something that Alexander said about, “You don’t see it very often.” I can tell you, I see it every day.

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Yep.

TANYA HOSCH

I see racism every day. I see all different forms of discrimination around me all the time. And, yes, my lived experience might mean that I’m, you know...I see it because it is part of what I know to be true. And I think that that’s what’s interesting. So...

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Yeah.

TANYA HOSCH

...how do we deal with the small things when we’re, um... We’ve just got to get much better at having conversations – that means that we all have to reflect on our own behaviour. And I think that’s what’s hard. So, you know, a lot of people like to talk about racism from the perspective, “Oh, well, you know, there’s these particular incidents.” But actually, it is systemic.

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Mm-hm.

TANYA HOSCH

There are a whole range of things that make it hard for some of us more than others. And we do have to get real about that. And we’ve got to finish the conversation about what we’re going to do about it. There’s all sorts of injustices that occur as a result of racism and other forms of discrimination. And I just think that, you know, the burden shouldn’t be on the people experiencing the discrimination to always be the ones that speak up.

WARREN MUNDINE

Yeah.

TANYA HOSCH

If I had a dollar for every time I left a meeting and someone said to me, “I’m really glad you said that...”

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Absolutely.

WARREN MUNDINE

Yeah.

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Call it out.

TANYA HOSCH

And now, these days, I’m like, “Well, why didn’t YOU say it?”

WARREN MUNDINE

Yeah.

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Mm-hm.

WARREN MUNDINE

And that’s it. It’s... Getting back to your comment about culture – it is about how you shift culture and you change things. And look, I...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you need leaders that get it?

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Absolutely. It’s got to start at the top.

WARREN MUNDINE

And also, you...and you... Like, I was born in... I’ll give my age away now – I was born in 1956. The first 13 years of my life, I lived under the segregation acts...the New South Wales Protection...Aborigines Protection Act. And that was a segregated society. It had... You know, I saw my father and my uncles and our family suffer under those periods of time and that, and we...our thing was, “We’ve got to punch through this. We’ve got to be stoic. We’ve got to be strong.” But those laws are all gone. We got rid of them. And how did we do that? Because it’s about how you...you have the conversation, you talk about fair dinkum...

One of the reasons I think, which came out of the Second World War, why it was able to have the ‘67 referendum and getting rid of the Aboriginal Acts by the 1970s, was because there’s a lot of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander soldiers who served…and navy and Air Force people, who served in the Second World War, and then, when they came back, they weren’t...they were then sent back to the reserves. And the other soldiers were sitting there, going, “Well, in the trenches, we were mates and we got on together. How come we can’t do that?” So there was...it was really weird, because it was... When you look at the beginning of those movements, it was really coming out of the military. And about that...and that’s what made it so easy to change. But it has to be...everyone has to stand up and call these things out.

And also, the culture is an important part. I talk about Mr Lafin, who was my soccer coach when I was a young kid. He... You know, we were a poor Aboriginal family, so we had one pair of boots between me and my brothers, and we used to share the boots around. And the families...other families saw that, and I remember one night, Mr Lafin turned up at our house, and my mother went to the door, and he was talking to her, and I was thinking to myself, “I wonder what Mr Lafin’s doing.” And what they did, the parents got together and bought me a pair of shoes. So I had my own pair of shoes. And I always remember that. So I don’t look at people black, white or brindle and that – that’s why I get a bit sick and tired of people saying, “Oh, because you’re white, you’re this,” and, “Because you’re black, you’re this”. There are some great people there. And we...and I’m a great believer that everyone has some greatness in it – we just need to build that culture that people can take that greatness on.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question. It comes from Tim Schroder.

TIM SCHRODER

Warren, my question is, if we don’t change the date of Australia Day, will we ever end the arguments around Australia Day?

WARREN MUNDINE

(LAUGHS) That’s a... Yeah, well, it’s...it’s an annual thing. I’m on public record, I’ve written about this, I’ve spoken about this in speeches and that, that I’m a ‘change the date’ guy, right? So, I...I’d like to see the date changed. I’m sick and tired of this argument and that, because I believe Australia is a good country. We’re probably one of the most successful multicultural countries in the world, if you look at all the rest. And we’ve got some great people here, and we can do some more great things. Are we perfect? No, we’re not. My idea was to say, OK, you know, Independence Day in the United States is on the day that they got independence. So, when was the Commonwealth of Australia started? Well, that was 1 January 1901. Now, being a good Aussie bloke, I don’t want to give up a public holiday...

OTHERS

(LAUGH)

WARREN MUNDINE

..but, you know... And now I’m starting to get... I’ve seen that joke about ‘mate’ – May 8 – and stuff. I’m actually starting to like it. I’m starting to like that we should do that. Because, one thing, it’s funny. The other thing too – it starts to bring us together. ‘Cause we can’t really resolve things if we just keep on arguing and chucking things at each other. We’ve got to come and sit down and have a conversation. And people talk about truth-talking and stuff like that. We’ve got to have those conversations. And if we don’t do that, then things don’t change, you know.

Like I said, I played soccer. And we had heaps of migrants coming out. A lot of blokes I went to school with – like, I went to a Catholic school – their parents couldn’t even speak English and stuff. But we got to know each other. And the only way we got to know each other was sitting around and talking to each other and telling truth stories. They told me their stories about why they had to leave Italy or Greece and places like that. I met this kid – I said, “What are you?” And he said he’s Estonian. And I said, “Mate, I may be a dumb blackfella from the bush, but there’s no such place as Estonia.” And he was a smart kid. He took me to the library – and it was probably the first time I went into a library! – and showed me a map. And then, all of a sudden, a conversation started. And that’s what we need to do. We need to have this conversation and, through that conversation, we can get better.

TANYA HOSCH

And finish it, maybe.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alexander Downer...

WARREN MUNDINE

Yeah, finish the conversation – that’s even better!

HAMISH MACDONALD

...do you have a view about changing the date of Australia Day?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

Well, it’s difficult to reconcile the two opinions here. A lot of Australians are happy with Australia Day as it is and, if it were changed, they would be offended and it would make them unhappy. Some Australians are...call it Invasion Day, and see it as a day of shame and the beginning of the destruction of Indigenous and traditional Australia. So, how do you reconcile those two points of view, which is the intellectual challenge. You don’t want to cause offence to either group.

So, I’m quite attracted to the idea of people...put by other people, which is that you would have two days instead of just one day. One day would be commemorating the arrival of the First Fleet, which was obviously significant, because it was the beginning of the total change of Australia into the Australia we know today. But a day of substantial respect for Indigenous Australia and 60 or so thousand years of Indigenous culture.

We do have NAIDOC Week, but, to be honest, I don’t think people focus very much on NAIDOC Week, and not many people know about it. I think finding a day where there is a commemoration of what happened to Indigenous people and, indeed, a celebration of Indigenous culture, is a very constructive idea – without, at the same time, turning your backs on what settler Australians have achieved as well, ‘cause we want to praise that, and they have done wonderful things. They’ve made mistakes, and everyone’s made mistakes – I’m sure Indigenous Australians have as well. But we want...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tanya Hosch, I can see you reacting to Alexander Downer here...

TANYA HOSCH

No. No.

OTHERS

(LAUGH)

HAMISH MACDONALD

There is also the argument, though, isn’t there, Tanya Hosch, that keeping Australia Day as it is forces Australia to have some of the difficult conversations you’re saying are so important to have?

TANYA HOSCH

Yeah, but I guess the problem is we don’t really have a process for having those conversations, which is why it’s a perennial debate. And I think that, you know, some of the conversation that I observed this year was great, because it was going beyond the idea of just changing the date – it was really talking about those other things that are important to the national story. I thought the Australia Day campaign this year, that was really trying to identify that and integrate those two things.

I certainly think that, if we’re going to have a day to, you know, celebrate and embrace and, you know, appreciate more about the First Australians, then I want a public holiday for it.

WARREN MUNDINE

(LAUGHS)

TANYA HOSCH

And we don’t get one of those in NAIDOC Week. But I think, you know, the...the national story, the things that we still have not resolved, the unfinished business, the conversations that I keep referring to as unfinished – I feel like they’re as much a part of us resolving these matters. Because once... And I do feel like a real...that the mood of the country’s changing – it is much more open to this conversation than it once was, and I see that as natural. But the date will get changed, and then a whole lot of people will feel really good about that, but then there’ll still be issues for First Australians that have not been addressed, and we’ll want to keep talking about that, and then you go back to that, “Oh, they’re never happy.”

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Correct.

TANYA HOSCH

It’s, you know, “You can’t do enough for them.” There’s a lot of things that we still need to tackle that do relate to our history – the colonisation, the racism, all of the injustices – that really do require us to do a deeper dive into what we’re saying about our country, how we tell that story, how we respect those perspectives. The reality is the First Australians were here first. And so, you know... And I just want to acknowledge all the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people everywhere for what they have done and do to make Australia great. And I really wish there was an opportunity to properly acknowledge that, beyond the Welcome to Country ceremonies that are now much more greatly embraced. You know, there’s just been so many different contributions from First Australians that a lot of Australians don’t even know about. And we’ve got a real opportunity here, through, I think, the framing of changing the date, to do so much more to get us understanding, as a whole nation, why the First Australians matter. The oldest living, continuing cultures on the planet. An incredible resilience. Incredible strength. But there is a lot of trauma there. There’s a lot of pain there. And, as Grace was saying earlier, and I think, you know, Shane, you’ve been saying too, it’s got to be OK to talk about all of those things. It’s part of the healing process to talk about those things. And we’ve had some great change. We had the apology to the Stolen Generations. And guess what – the sky didn’t fall in. And there were people who were not supportive about that. But it seems that they’ve moved on. And I think that we can move on from this.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Grace, you’re from a generation that seems to have a lot of momentum on this question of changing the date. Why do you think, for younger Australians, it is so appealing to change the date?

GRACE TAME

I think it’s just...again, it comes back to the point that I made before about...you know, common sense. And Tanya has...

WARREN MUNDINE

(LAUGHS) Common sense.

GRACE TAME

(LAUGHS) ...talked a lot about, you know, how important it is to acknowledge these things. And I mean, honestly, though, my opinion on this shouldn’t really matter. I think this debate should be dominated by Indigenous Australians. And, I mean, Warren also talked about symbols, though, and it is – it’s an important symbol. It costs us nothing to change the date. It costs us nothing. We can still celebrate Australia. We can celebrate Australia every day. I know I do. So many great things about Australia. But to change the date would mean so much to our First Nations people, and I think that’s the least that we could do, to change the date.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s take our next question. It comes from Ian Duffy.

IAN DUFFY

With Joe Biden now being President of the United States, and having strong views and policies directed towards climate change and emissions reductions, will this be an influence and a tipping point for our current Liberal government to change their current policies?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Shane Fitzsimmons?

SHANE FITZSIMMONS

Oh, look, I think it is. And I think, just in recent weeks, we’ve seen the Prime Minister talk about targets around 2050, which strongly correlates with where we’re already at in New South Wales, for example, and the government position. But, like lot of these important discussions and debates, we’ve got to bring it back to the...we’ve got to bring it back to the centre. We can’t keep being dominated by the polar ends of these debates, the extremism on either end of the debate. So, I think stability and growth with the change in the US elections is a good thing, and I think the relationship between the US and the...and Australia will continue, no matter what flavour of government. We’ve shown that over the decades. I think we’re coming up to the 70th anniversary of strong partnerships and relationships.

And I think one of the challenges we’ve got is, in any organisation, in any business, you make decisions and set strategy based on circumstances and considerations at the time. And we should be able to have a mature debate nationally that, when new information or new circumstances or changing environments come to play, it’s actually OK to adjust and modify strategy and intent, because you’re weighing up and considering...whatever target you set, you’re weighing up the how-to, the implications, of achieving that. And what are the costs, and what are the opportunities? As time evolves and circumstances shift and new technologies and new arrangements come to play, we should adjust our strategies and adjust our thinking. For me, to hear talk already about 2050 targets – I think it’s a sensible thing, a good thing, and it certainly lines up, from my perspective, with where we’re at already in New South Wales as a government as well.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Should we be surprised, Alexander Downer, that there’s a change in government in America, a change of policy, and that the Australian government suddenly finds itself moving in that direction pretty promptly too?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

No, I don’t think the Australian government is changing its position because there’s a change of...

WARREN MUNDINE

No.

ALEXANDER DOWNER

...government in the United States. I think Australia actually… For all the heat of the debate here within Australia over climate change, and it’s brought down a whole number of prime ministers, one after the other...

WARREN MUNDINE

Yeah.

ALEXANDER DOWNER

But Australia has been making a contribution to reducing CO2 emissions. I think I’m right in saying, between 2005 and 2019, we reduced our emissions by around 13%. We met our Kyoto targets. We’re almost certainly going to at least meet, if not exceed, our Paris targets. So I think you could be optimistic that we’ll get to net zero emissions by 2050. But I don’t think... It’s not... I mean, I wouldn’t overstate the change of administration in the United States. I think, at one level, you know, we talked earlier about...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So the timing is all just coincidental?

ALEXANDER DOWNER

Well... Right. I wouldn’t over... I know you’re not going to agree with anything I say, but...

OTHERS

(LAUGH)

ALEXANDER DOWNER

...I think that Donald Trump is out of the way, and so, you know, a whole lot of controversy about his statements and his tweeting is gone. But I do think, with the advent of the Biden administration, a lot – particularly in terms of international positioning – will be rather similar. Now, Biden, of course, has gone back into the Paris Agreement, and we obviously welcome that, and Trump had left that. But for...but for Australia, you know, the biggest issue, other than some of the issues we’ve been talking about tonight, is going to be the rise of China and the stability of the Indo-Pacific region. That is going to be existential for Australia. And the role that the Biden administration will play in contributing to a balance of power in the Indo-Pacific region, and working particularly with liberal democracies in the Indo-Pacific region – like ourselves, Japan, India, Indonesia and so on – it’s going to be absolutely vital to our geopolitical positioning and to Australian foreign policy. So, I don’t think the Trump administration necessarily would have been a problem there if they’d been re-elected, but I think the Biden administration will be fine as well. And there’s much more to the Biden administration than just the Paris Agreement.

HAMISH MACDONALD

We’ll have to leave it there. That’s all we’ve got time for. Please thank our panel: Grace Tame, Shane Fitzsimmons, Warren Mundine, Tanya Hosch, and Alexander Downer.

Thanks so much for sharing your questions, and thanks to those of you streaming us on iview.

Next Thursday we’re in Melbourne, looking at the topic on everyone’s minds – the vaccine. The experts will be here to answer your questions directly. But, for now, we’re leaving you with a collaboration between one of the nation’s leading didgeridoo players, William Barton, and talented violinist Veronique Serret. This is a piece from their program Heartland. Goodnight.

VERONIQUE SERRET

# Ooh

# Ooh-ooh

# Ooh-ooh

Tribes of long, long, long ago, living in an ancient land of peace – the heartland.

WILLIAM BARTON

(SINGS IN INDIGENOUS LANGUAGE)

VERONIQUE SERRET

# Ooh

# Ooh-ooh

# Ooh, ooh. #

We walk as one, bare feet, in sacred hands, my mother country – the heartland.