Saving the Arts and 'Brain Farts'

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Every day, the figures are a troubling reminder – Australia is still grappling with health and economic challenges due to COVID-19. A wave of new cases is now upon us. Victoria is at the epicentre, and today South Australia recorded new cases for the first time in more than a month. On the jobs front, the number of people without work is mounting. The latest sector to receive some relief is the arts. So, did the government get its package right? You’ve got lots of questions, so let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.

Welcome to the program. I’m filling in for Hamish this evening, and it’s great to be back with you. Joining me on the panel tonight: writer, youth advocate and law student Yasmin Poole; Minister for Communications, Cyber Safety and the Arts, Paul Fletcher; joining us from Brisbane, singer-songwriter Katie Noonan – you’ll hear a lovely song from her a bit later on; Shadow Minister for the NDIS and former Labor leader Bill Shorten; and president of Chief Executive Women Sue Morphet. Please welcome our panel.

Remember, you can stream us on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. #QandA is the hashtag. And we’d love to hear from you on social media.

Let’s get to our first question tonight. It comes from the studio. It comes from Garry Mann.

GARRY MANN

Good evening, panel. Thank you for being here. Now, Australia’s in quite an enviable position, compared to a lot of countries in the world, with our coronavirus response. However, lately, there’s been some general unrest in the community, and that seems to have led to some small pocket outbreaks in Victoria, as well as a bit of reduced uptake of the COVIDSafe app. Now, in your opinion, how should we not only educate, but look to motivate some of these marginalised communities to take proactive steps towards their health?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Thanks, Garry. Bill Shorten, I’m actually going to start with you, because I think a lot of these, or some of these, hotspots are actually in your electorate.

BILL SHORTEN, FORMER LABOR LEADER, SHADOW MINISTER FOR THE NDIS

Yeah, they are. Thanks for your question, Garry. Obviously, in the last few days, we’ve seen an upward track in Victoria – a number of people saying they have the virus, or been tested positive. And I contacted some of my friends who are working in the front line of the health response, to ask them, “Is this the second wave, and what’s causing this?” And what these health professionals said to me as recently as this evening is they said it’s a phenomenon of community transmission. They think it’s also a phenomenon of family gatherings. And they are particularly seeing perhaps more young people testing positive, which means that, whilst they’re capable of withstanding this virus more often than not, there is real risk that it could spread to older people.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

What’s so particular about your part of Melbourne that it seems to be located just there, in the north and west?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, what we see is we’ve got quite a multicultural community. I think that what we’re seeing is family gatherings are the particular sort of transmission spot. I had someone else reach out to me today and say, in the public housing commission, the high-rise flats in Flemington, we need to get more material in more languages so people can understand what they need to do, so that there’s less panic and confusion.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Has that been a bit of a miss in your estimation, Minister? I noticed today that the Mayor of Stonnington, here in Victoria, said that a number of the mayors had made a direct plea to the federal government to try and get material in different languages, not the state government. Maybe we should point out that the Mayor of Stonnington is not of the same political stripe as the...as the state premier, and maybe it was a political play. But a direct appeal to try and get information in different languages. Has the state government missed that?

PAUL FLETCHER, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS, CYBER SAFETY AND THE ARTS

Well, what we need to do, obviously, is provide the public health advice that reflects the nature of modern Australia. We’re an extremely diverse, multicultural nation. Now, SBS, in my portfolio, has been doing a lot of work with the Federal Department of Health and state and territory health departments in translating material into over 60 languages. So, there is a significant focus on getting those health messages into all of the relevant languages used in our community. This is a continuing effort. We all need to remember that the threat has not gone away. COVID-19 is among us. We all need to maintain those basic practices of the social distancing, the cough etiquette. Download the app, please, if you haven’t downloaded the app. It’s getting on for 6.5 million Australians have downloaded the app.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

And yet it hasn’t picked up a single case that hasn’t been already picked up by manual contact tracing. So, I think that was your reference to the app there, wasn’t it, Garry – that it’s not delivered on its promise?

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, that’s not actually right. There are instances where it has. There’s at least one case where it’s picked up a case of somebody who would not have been picked up by...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

One case for 6 million downloads?

PAUL FLETCHER

But can I make the point... Well, we want to do everything we can. We want to take every step to maximise the safety of Australians.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Sure, but you might have expected a bit more, mightn’t you?

PAUL FLETCHER

One of the other things that it’s done is it allows contact tracing to occur more quickly, because it’s designed to supplement the work of our state and territory health officials, who do the physical contact tracing. Bear in mind also that a lot of our cases recently have been people coming into Australia from overseas and quarantining in hotels, who may not yet have downloaded the app. But it’s a very important tool. We’re now on release seven, so we’re continuing to upgrade it. Over 90% – well over 90% – of smartphones now are able to use it.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Sure.

PAUL FLETCHER

It’s part of the...the toolset.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Let me go back to the questioner. I think you’re a hospital worker. Is that right?

GARRY MANN

Yep.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah. Do you see any value in the app?

GARRY MANN

I’d rather not comment on that.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

(LAUGHS)

GARRY MANN

I see the value in the app if it catches the right people and if it motivates people to be proactive about their health. I’m very happy with the educational approach that we’ve had so far and getting it into many languages, but for me, we need to also motivate people to take positive steps for their health.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

And the positive steps is the really difficult thing when you see complacency creep in. Sue Morphet, can I come to you? Particularly from a business perspective, you must be, like the rest of the country and community, watching this and thinking, “When do we ever get out of this new hell?” What’s your response to it all?

SUE MORPHET, PRESIDENT, CHIEF EXECUTIVE WOMEN

We need it to... We need to keep it tight – as tight as we can – because we know that businesses are going to be very, very steadily coming back, and we know that unemployment is going to grow if we rush back in. So, we’ve got to manage the pace between being pleased and opening up, and being cautious and managing. It’s a big deal. I think we need to be looking to see what are the safety nets? Are we looking after our front-line workers? Can we keep them in work? Can we manage them with childcare? Have we got enough support in our community so that front-liners can work, so that people can go back? But we also need to make sure that the JobKeeper...JobKeeper is not just cut off at the end of September.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

We’ve got a question on that, so we’ll get to that a bit later on.

SUE MORPHET

Absolutely.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But just before I move on...

BILL SHORTEN

Good point, though.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

..to the next question, Sue Morphet, is the pace about right, in your view, at the moment?

SUE MORPHET

Of opening?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Mm.

SUE MORPHET

Yes, it is, because I think all businesses are being cautious and all sectors of the industry...of industry are being cautious.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

OK.

SUE MORPHET

What we have to hope is that our population is being as cautious.

YASMIN POOLE, WRITER AND YOUTH ADVOCATE

Can I also mention... We’re talking about front-line workers. I mean, my mum’s a nurse, and it’s been really, actually, stressful seeing her have to go to work and battle through this crisis every day. And there was even a COVID-19 scare in her workplace a few weeks ago, and thankfully, she was fine, but when we had the discussion about the second wave, of course people might be impacted, but front-line workers haven’t really received a pay rise. I mean, my mother... You know, I come from a low-income background, and we’re still struggling, and I haven’t seen any difference there. So, I think that’s also a really important conversation – how we value and treat our front-line healthcare workers as well.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah, that’s a good point. Let’s go to our next question. It’s a video question from Leah Barclay, an Indigenous sound artist and composer who works at the University of the Sunshine Coast in Queensland.

LEAH BARCLAY, SUNSHINE COAST, QLD

Good evening. This is a question for Minister Paul Fletcher. I’m wondering, why does the government need to set up a ministerial task force to implement its new $250 million investment in the arts sector? Surely, as the government’s arts funding and advisory body, this is absolutely core business for the Australia Council for the Arts. Without the independence, peer assessment, transparency and oversight that the Australia Council can, and always does, provide, this new fund runs a very real risk of becoming like many other funding disasters we’ve seen recently. And given the very limited funds on offer, how will this new task force pick winners and losers without opening the government up to claims of bias?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Leah Barclay there. Minister, I’ll come to you in a minute. But, Katie Noonan, I’d like to go straight to you on this – your response to how the system’s been set up.

KATIE NOONAN, SINGER SONGWRITER

Yeah, well, I would have to agree with Professor Barclay from Gubbi Gubbi country, which is actually where I live. I think a lot of people have concerns about the Creative Economy Taskforce because this package, as wonderful as it is, and there are a lot of awesome things to celebrate, I would be concerned that people would feel that the decision-making process was, you know, politicised, and it should be done by a bipartisan, completely independent body, which, of course, is the Australia Council for the Arts, and has been for over 50 years. So, I think that seems... You know, we trust the Australia Council and...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Are you saying you don’t trust the government?

KATIE NOONAN

Well, I think I’m saying that it needs to be a bipartisan, non-political process, and at the moment, if that Creative Economy Taskforce is obviously being put together by one government, and without another, that probably isn’t the best way to judge the grants that we have on offer.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Paul Fletcher, what’s your response to that?

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, thank you, Leah, for the question. So, our $250 million package is designed to restart activity in the arts sector. $75 million of grants. $90 million of concessional loans. $35 million for systemically important arts companies, to sustain them. And $50 million for film and television. Now, of course, we’ll be drawing on the advice of the Australia Council. I’ll be drawing on the advice of my department, and we’ll be drawing on the advice of this Creative Economy Taskforce. This is $250 million to spend over one year. That is a significant amount of money.

We want to get as many views as possible. We want to make sure we’re getting the views not just of the subsidised part of the sector, but of businesses which have historically been purely commercial but may need that support. The challenge is that over this period where venues have been closed, artists have lost their gigs, performances have been cancelled, the people, the businesses, the organisations that normally put on productions, events, shows, festivals, that takes capital. It costs money to hire a venue, hire a crew, hire a cast, market the show, and here...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I just want to take you to the nut of the question, which is about the model you’ve set up to distribute this money, and the very real apprehension that our questioner has that it won’t be independent. It’s clearly not business as usual, arm’s length. That’s the business of AusCo, the Australia Council. And as Leah said, they know how to do this. The concern is that the only assumption you can draw is, if you’re not going to put in place that arm’s-length process, that the government wants some control of the outcome. Is that a fair assumption?

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, what we’d be doing, of course, is establishing guidelines and making assessments against those guidelines. We’ll go through a proper grant process, and we will be drawing on this...through this Creative Economy Taskforce, on a diversity of views in advising the government. What we want to do is make sure we get as many perspectives as possible – different parts of the country, different parts of the sector, subsidised, non-subsidised – so that we can allocate this money as effectively as possible to get production, shows, events happening.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

So they’ll all get a say on the grants process – the commercial, the non-commercial...

PAUL FLETCHER

We’ll be taking advice widely on how we allocate this funding, and the decisions we’ve made to date with the package have been based on very wide consultations.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

OK.

YASMIN POOLE

Minister, will you also be engaging with young people in the arts in that process?

PAUL FLETCHER

Absolutely. Young people are a critical part of the arts sector, and we want to make sure... I mean, what we don’t want to do is simply look at one part of the sector, which is very well represented, has a strong voice at the table through the Australia Council, and risk missing other parts of the sector, which might well include the smaller companies, the younger artists, those who are not perhaps plugged in to those existing networks. That’s one of the precise reasons why we want to make sure we’re getting our advice as widely as possible.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Let me hear from Bill Shorten on this one.

BILL SHORTEN

Sports rorts. This government, when they politicise the allocation of money, have demonstrated they can’t be trusted. Now, that doesn’t take anything away from the package, and it’s good that a package has been announced. You could argue it should’ve been 100 days earlier, but they’ve announced something. So, that is good. But why on earth are they... Going to Leah’s question, you’ve got the Australia Council to avoid the politicisation of arts funding. A previous Arts Minister, George Brandis, before he got promoted to London, he took $100 million off the arts...off the Australia Council and allocated himself – that ended in tears.

PAUL FLETCHER

Let’s be very clear. That’s not what we’re doing. There is no change to existing Australia Council funding. The Australia Council has very big job...

BILL SHORTEN

No, no, no.

PAUL FLETCHER

..and it’s going to keep doing it.

BILL SHORTEN

Paul, you’re a smart fella, but you know that wasn’t the point I was making. The point I was making is not the amount of money which the Australia Council has. Why have a political process...? I mean, you’ve got to admit, in sports rorts, you didn’t cover yourselves in glory. This virus and the effects are too important for “politics as usual” crap, so why don’t we just let the...the official body do it? And if you think that they’re missing points, raise it with them.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Let me see if Katie Noonan thinks that would be an effective way to go. Do you?

KATIE NOONAN

Sorry, what was that, Virginia?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

An effective...an effective way to go to actually put it back into the...into the bailiwick of the Australia Council, and let them decide?

KATIE NOONAN

Oh, no. I think... I think this is excellent that this is a separate package, and it’s a really important investment into the economic and social recovery of our country, because the arts is such a wonderful portal through which to do that. But, yes, I would have to say that there have been a lot of concerns that this will become a politicised process and, you know, I’d like to remind the ministers there this evening that the Australia Council for the Arts was actually set up in a Liberal government in the ‘60s, and it’s been a truly bipartisan, independent... Until Brandis. But other than the Catalyst disaster, it has been a truly independent think tank that has...has their...you know, their fingers on the pulse of the arts across the whole country, not just the MPAs. You know, they fund everyone, from country, rock, pop, jazz...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

The major performing arts organisation.

PAUL FLETCHER

Look, let’s be clear – the Australia Council has a very important role. It will continue to have a very important role. It will continue to have very substantial funding to allocate under its existing programs, and it will be a major source of advice to government as we go through the implementation of these programs.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Alright.

BILL SHORTEN

But why invent a new bureaucracy?

PAUL FLETCHER

Because what we want to do is make sure we are getting the widest possible sources of advice. This is a unique challenge. We want to stimulate a whole sector restarting, which has basically had to suspend almost all activity. The arts and entertainment sector has been hit very hard, and so we want to make sure we’re getting the widest possible sources of advice so we can deploy this $250 million in 12 months – a substantial amount of money. We’ve got to get it working as effectively as we can.

BILL SHORTEN

The money’s good, but I’ve just got to keep saying it’s not big vote of confidence in the Australia Council. Anyway, I think we’ve all made our respective points.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Alright, let’s move on to our next question tonight. It’s a video question. It comes from cinematographer Gerald Wiblin from Coburg in Victoria.

GERALD WIBLIN, COBURG, VIC

The film and television industry was one of the hardest hit, with production ceasing almost immediately as the pandemic hit. Many of those productions have not come back, and they don’t know when they’re going to start again. Due to the way our employment contracts are set up, many people do not qualify for JobKeeper, and there’s no way that we can work from home either. My question for you, Paul, is why have you turned your back on the $117 billion industry that you represent, and why haven’t you fought harder for us? The $250 million stimulus package announced in the last week is just a drop in the ocean, and really isn’t going far enough for the people that you represent.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, thanks, Gerald. And, look, there’s no doubt that this has been devastating for people in the arts and entertainment sector, the screen sector. One of the elements of last week’s package that is so important is that $50 million Temporary Interruption Fund for film and television productions, because there’s a specific problem in film and television. I’ve consulted quite extensively with producers. The challenge is putting together their financing packages at the moment, because they can’t get insurance against a COVID-19 risk that a key cast member or director, for example, might suddenly fall ill and the production can’t proceed.

This Temporary Interruption Fund is designed to solve that problem so we can get screen and television productions happening again. It reinforces the work that’s been done by the Australian Film Television and Radio School, working with people across the industry to develop COVID-safe operating protocols so that it’s safe to go on set and get those films and TV productions happening. So, what we’re focused on with the package is getting activity restarted. In relation to people in the arts and entertainment sector and JobKeeper and JobSeeker, we’ve got a range of arrangements to support people. I would make the point...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Let’s...let’s not rehearse through those, though, ‘cause we know what they are. I want to take you back to the...the nub of the question, though, which gets to the quantum, and I guess the real question to be asked here is why have you capped this industry and not...not another? Why is this the industry to cap with the amount of money that you’ll allow to get this industry back on its feet, whereas with JobBuilder, there’s no cap?

PAUL FLETCHER

Let’s be very clear...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Just tell me...just tell me why the difference.

PAUL FLETCHER

Virginia, let’s be very clear – that’s a Greens talking point. That was an observation that the Greens made.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I don’t really care if it’s a Greens talking point.

PAUL FLETCHER

But...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

It’s my question.

PAUL FLETCHER

But the fact is that...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

You can answer my question.

PAUL FLETCHER

..the great majority of government programs are...are for a specific amount to do a specific thing. There’s nothing at all unusual...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But why cap...why cap this one? Because what we know about the arts, about...apart from it being the first out and the absolute last back in whenever that might be, in whatever form, it’s a multiplier, and it’s also the driver...

PAUL FLETCHER

Sure.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

..of so many other key parts of the economy, whether it be education or whether it be hospitality and the like. So, again, just tell me the thinking about why that one’s capped.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, there is nothing at all unusual about allocating a defined sum of money to...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But tell me the thinking behind it.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, the thinking was, “Let’s come up with a substantial amount of money that is going to restart activity in the arts sector.” So, for example, normally, the annual funding to the Australia Council is a bit over $200 million a year. This is a one-time injection of a further $250 million. This is going to make a significant difference.

KATIE NOONAN

Could I just...?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah. Jump in there, Katie. Yeah.

KATIE NOONAN

Well, if I could jump in, it’s actually not $250 million – it’s $160 million. So, we just need to remember that 90 of them are concessional loans. So, calling it $250 million is a little...not quite right.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, if I could just be clear...

KATIE NOONAN

But I think...

PAUL FLETCHER

If I could just be clear on that point. So, the reason we’ve included loans is because Live Performance Australia, which represents many arts companies, performance promoters, proposed that there should be significant loans as part of the package. So, we think this will assist promoters...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

OK.

PAUL FLETCHER

..arts companies, and so on, to get events going.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I want to let Katie finish there.

KATIE NOONAN

Well, I think, actually, part of what the questioner was saying is, you know, according to the new approach done last year, you know, the Australian recreation industry employs 600,000 people, and the fine print of the package on Friday said that the JobKeeper package currently supports this sector to the tune of about $100 million per month, via JobKeeper and the cash flow stimulus. But the problem is with that, when you do some basic maths – and as we’ve discussed, it’s actually only supporting 25,000 arts...artists and arts workers, so that leaves 575,000 that are currently left out of the JobKeeper package. And, you know, on 8 April, when our Arts Minister voted no to amendments to allow casuals, freelance artists, and all those spectacular humans who have dedicated their life to this sector and fall through the cracks, they are now on JobSeeker, which is not only less money but also they’ve effectively been told, “You don’t have a real job.”

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, just a couple of things there.

KATIE NOONAN

And I think that’s part of the problem.

PAUL FLETCHER

So...the... First of all, that amendment you’re talking about, let’s be clear, that was a second reading amendment moved by the Labor Party in the House of Representatives.

BILL SHORTEN

Yeah.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I’m going to let Bill Shorten jump in there.

PAUL FLETCHER

No, no, but the point is...

BILL SHORTEN

Look at the government. Stop talking about us.

PAUL FLETCHER

The point is important.

BILL SHORTEN

OK.

PAUL FLETCHER

If that amendment had been passed...

BILL SHORTEN

Knock yourself out.

PAUL FLETCHER

..the whole bill, the whole stimulus program, JobKeeper, would not have proceeded.

BILL SHORTEN

Oh, God.

PAUL FLETCHER

Now, Labor said they supported JobKeeper...

BILL SHORTEN

It’s all our fault.

PAUL FLETCHER

..and yet they moved this amendment, which was...you know, it was...it was politics. They had never expected or wanted it to pass...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I...I don’t want to get lost down that rabbit hole of politics.

PAUL FLETCHER

..because they knew, if that happened, that...

KATIE NOONAN

Well, but even if...if we move on from that point...

PAUL FLETCHER

..the JobKeeper package would not...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah, exactly.

PAUL FLETCHER

..have gone to the parliament.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Katie and then Bill Shorten. Yeah, Katie?

KATIE NOONAN

I was just going to say, let’s even...happy to move on from that point, but the fact is only 25,000 arts workers and artists are receiving JobKeeper. And the statistics are there are 600,000, so...

PAUL FLETCHER

Can I just clarify something?

BILL SHORTEN

Paul... Paul, it’s a panel. It’s a panel.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

No, I’m going to go to Bill Shorten, then I’ll go back to you, Minister.

PAUL FLETCHER

Thank you.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

And I want to hear from the rest of the panel, too. Bill Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN

Going back to the question, which the filmmaker...

PAUL FLETCHER

Gerard.

BILL SHORTEN

..Gerard made, was this. I think that, again, it’s good that they’re doing something. So I’m not going to totally rubbish that. But the issue with JobKeeper is that it only goes for permanent employees.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah, yeah.

BILL SHORTEN

So the point that’s being made is, if you’re a make-up artist, a contract or a freelance artist, a casual... And the nature of this industry, like many industries, is you don’t have permanent employment. So, in the good times, we rely on this deregulated employment market to deliver services, but in the bad time they can’t get JobKeeper, and so I think two simple improvements to make to the package, Paul. One, make it accessible for casuals and a whole lot of people who work in this industry every day. We can’t just wish them away when it’s difficult and ignore what happens. The other thing is, are we really going to just stop everything on September 25? ‘Cause if we do, we’re going to fall off a cliff.

KATIE NOONAN

Yep.

BILL SHORTEN

I know the government’s got a report...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yep.

BILL SHORTEN

..about the future of JobKeeper, but you’ve got a by-election this Saturday and you’re not releasing the report till after the by-election. I mean, that does sound political.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, what we’re doing is, we are considering carefully that report...

BILL SHORTEN

(GROANS)

PAUL FLETCHER

..that work on what the future of JobKeeper is. The Treasurer has made it very clear. We’ve got a review under way. There’s an economic statement coming in late July.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

OK...

PAUL FLETCHER

That’s when we will announce what, if anything, we do.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

We’ll come to that a bit later in our conversation as well. Sue Morphet, from your perspective, I guess you can see the multiplier effect that I was speaking of earlier when it comes to the performing arts and the entertainment and the arts sector. Has the government acted as it should in order to support that when the floor fell out?

SUE MORPHET

I think it’s been...it’s far too late. Because the people that are in this sector have had significantly reduced incomes, and not able to tap into JobKeeper, as we were saying. The second thing is, we know that it supports so many businesses outside, and it’s internationally competitive, our arts sector. So we should be doing everything we can to keep it viable. We could be doing everything we can to keep the participants in that sector viable, so that then, in turn, they are prepared and ready to go back.

One of the things about the people who work in the arts is that they know that they’re never going to have...many of them know, that they’re never going to have great full-time work, and so therefore they rely on other industries to prop up their income, such as hospitality, accommodation and the likes. And so that’s also decimated. So this is a real wipe-out for a sector and for many, many people who are working in it.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yasmin.

YASMIN POOLE

I mean, I would also touch upon, when we’re talking about necessary reforms, the JobKeeper payment actually inherently discriminates against young people, especially through casual work. And also the fact that young people in the arts and young people more broadly are still subject to...they’re still viewed as dependent under the age of 22, which means that young people that aren’t relying on their parents’ income may still be ineligible for JobKeeper and suffer as a result. And secondly, I’d also...when we talk about the multiplier effect of the arts industry, it’s also important to consider that we can’t just view the arts industry in a silo. You know, I was thinking about it, and we’ve all been young once, right? And music and the arts is so absolutely important...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

One of the few truths in this room, yes.

PAUL FLETCHER

Do you remember being young, Bill? I remember being young. (CHUCKLES)

YASMIN POOLE

It’s true.

BILL SHORTEN

(CHUCKLES) You were never young.

YASMIN POOLE

But absolutely important to the experience of being young. You know, music and the arts validates your soul, your emotions, your feelings. So to...I guess, to silence the arts industry, in a sense, also silences young people. So it’s vitally important that we can’t let this industry go dark.

PAUL FLETCHER

Can I say, I’m in heated agreement...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Very, very briefly.

PAUL FLETCHER

..with Yasmin and with Sue. One of the reasons we are supporting the arts sector in this way is because when you go and see a show, you very often go to a bar and have a drink, you go to a restaurant and have a meal, you might stay overnight in a hotel ‘cause you’ve travelled there. The multiplier effects are significant.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yes. As I was saying, yes.

PAUL FLETCHER

Economic activity in the arts is important, as well as all the intrinsic reasons why the arts are so important.

BILL SHORTEN

Can I put in a plea to save Channel 31 and Channel 44, then, at community radio? Just putting it out there.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I will...

BILL SHORTEN

We could do a deal here.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I will say that I received a number of...a number of questions on that. We have to move on to our next question, but do you want to very quickly say that you’re going to save Channel 31? Yes or no?

PAUL FLETCHER

I can announce tonight that we will be extending Channel 31 and Channel 44 for another 12 months.

BILL SHORTEN

I’ve got a few other asks as well, now we’re on a roll! (LAUGHS)

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

(LAUGHS)

PAUL FLETCHER

That’s the only thing you’re going to get out of me, Bill. But we’ll have more to say...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

For 12 months only?

PAUL FLETCHER

For 12 months.

BILL SHORTEN

Oh...

PAUL FLETCHER

Let’s be clear, it’s been our policy since 2014 that these community television stations should move to operating in a digital mode. And both Channel 31 in Melbourne, Channel 44 in Adelaide have several times said, yes, they’re going to make that transition. They have been extended several times. I’ve agreed now, and we’ll be announcing it formally tomorrow to extend for a further 12 months, both of those channels.

BILL SHORTEN

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

PAUL FLETCHER

But we will be using this period to work through with them what needs to happen for them to successfully transition to digital operations, so that we can still have community TV as a great place where people can work and make programs, be responsive to the community, and then disseminate using digital technology

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

So you will... At the end of 12 months, or during those 12 months, you will assist them materially, financially if you have to, in order to – this is a question – in order to get them to the digital platform they need to be on, and therefore you can take the spectrum away?

PAUL FLETCHER

We will work with them to assist... work with them on that transition.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Money?

PAUL FLETCHER

Let’s... We’re not at that point yet, but we...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Probably money will be needed.

PAUL FLETCHER

..but what we want to do is work with Channel 31 and Channel 44 in Melbourne and Adelaide. We think the best way for them to operate is in a digital mode. That’s been the government’s policy..

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

OK.

PAUL FLETCHER

..since 2014. We’re going to spend the next 12 months on that.

BILL SHORTEN

That’s one win for Q+A.

PAUL FLETCHER

They will extend...

BILL SHORTEN

We should get more government ministers on Q+A.

PAUL FLETCHER

There’s going to be quite a few people claiming credit for that tomorrow, Bill. But well done. That’s what I’m happy to share with the viewers tonight.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

That is indeed good news. Thank you. Let’s go to our next question. It’s a video question now from Matilda Drage, who’s from Lah in Victoria.

MATILDA DRAGE, LAH, VIC

Minister Fletcher, why have the people that work for ABC Me in Melbourne lost their jobs? My favourite presenter is Pip, and she has lost her job. Minister Fletcher, have you actually watched ABC Me? It is really good, and they should get the money they need. Thank you.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Well, you’re in such a generous mood tonight, Minister, maybe you want to reinstate some ABC funding, if you’re announcing channels can continue.

BILL SHORTEN

Go on!

PAUL FLETCHER

Matilda, there’s a thing called operational, editorial and financial independence of ABC board and management. And so, look, the facts are, the ABC has secure funding. We’re in the first year of a three-year period, ABC funding increasing every year over that period. The ABC has been aware of its funding since the current triennium funding arrangements were announced in 2018. Board and management then are charged with making decisions in relation to how they allocate that funding. Some announcements were made last week in the context of the ABC releasing its five-year strategic plan. So that’s the basis of the decision. They’re not decisions made by a Minister.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

No, but the decision’s made because of a cut. And...

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, it’s not a cut.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Well...

PAUL FLETCHER

It’s not a cut. Let’s be clear.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I don’t know how much more time...

PAUL FLETCHER

It’s not a cut. ABC funding is going up.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

..I want to give on the ABC to this backwards and forwards about it.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, you know, I’ve had this discussion with several ABC journalists.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Minister, the funding simply has not gone up over the period. In fact, it’s going down.

PAUL FLETCHER

That’s not true.

BILL SHORTEN

Virginia, I brought the Budget Paper.

PAUL FLETCHER

Virginia, it’s simply not true.

BILL SHORTEN

Because I’ve seen Paul give other interviews on this.

PAUL FLETCHER

It’s simply not true.

BILL SHORTEN

A little bit of homework never hurt. This is the Budget Paper, page 72, from the 2018 budget. The highlighted bit, I don’t know if the camera can make it, but it says it’s cuts, reduction... It says, “This is a reduction in spending on the ABC by $83.7 million over the next three years.” If you don’t believe Ita Buttrose and you don’t believe the National Party leader of New South Wales, this is in the Budget Paper.

YASMIN POOLE

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

BILL SHORTEN

It’s a cut! It’s a cut, cut, cut.

PAUL FLETCHER

It’s quite interesting because...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yasmin... I do want to hear from Yasmin here, rather than this backwards and forwards.

PAUL FLETCHER

..In 2018, you were arguing...

BILL SHORTEN

I’m just sticking up for Aunty.

PAUL FLETCHER

..you were arguing that the government had cut $1.8 billion from aged care funding. ABC Fact Check...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Can we... Minister, let’s...

PAUL FLETCHER

This is highly relevant, because ABC...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Minister...Minister, let’s stay on that subject, or we’re not hearing from that at all.

PAUL FLETCHER

This is the subject of ABC funding, because ABC Fact Check deems that an adjustment to future spending does not represent a cut when the overall level of spending continues to rise. That’s ABC Fact Check in October 2018. That’s exactly the situation that we’re in. So, in 2018, the government took a decision in relation to triennial funding for the ABC.

BILL SHORTEN

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

PAUL FLETCHER

That did not include indexation, but it did mean an increase in ABC funding every year. This is the argument that the ABC...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I want... I... We’ve been over this again. I have got the figures in front of me, which I’m happy to rehearse, but I want to hear from Yasmin first.

YASMIN POOLE

Well, I was going to say, I mean, first, it’s very questionable that you say that there’s not cuts, but it’s even more questionable...

PAUL FLETCHER

It’s true.

YASMIN POOLE

..that under your government you’ve commissioned a $200,000 report to look into the effects of public broadcasters versus commercial rivals. And to be honest, with that $200,000 report, I’d like to question, is that the best use of taxpayer money? And secondly, I suspect that that report will just be used to justify further cuts to the ABC. And speaking as a young person, can I just emphasise, I mean, even in the ABC charter, its focus is on reflecting the cultural diversity of Australia. And as a 21-year-old, it’s incredibly rare and pretty unheard of that I’d be given a platform on any other media outlet.

BILL SHORTEN

Yeah.

YASMIN POOLE

And even if we look at things like the Black Lives Matter movement in Australia, I would switch on the TV and be so frustrated seeing a lack of Indigenous Australian representation on other platforms. So, to cut the ABC, especially now, I mean, after the bushfires, after COVID-19, and its general importance in Australia, I think is truly a tragedy.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, you could look at NITV on SBS, for example, the other national broadcaster.

YASMIN POOLE

But why cut the ABC in the first place?

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, we’re not cutting the ABC. ABC funding is going up.

BILL SHORTEN

Oh. Blah, blah, blah.

PAUL FLETCHER

These are the facts, ladies and gentlemen...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

For the record, I’m going to read through these figures in a moment. But, Sue Morphet.

SUE MORPHET

It appears that...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Do you reckon you know what a cut looks like in a budget?

SUE MORPHET

I surely do. I surely do, and I wish I didn’t. The reality, though, my understanding, is that the promised amounts weren’t delivered and the promised amounts were cut.

PULL FLETCHER

Well, Sue, that’s not true either, actually.

BILL SHORTEN

Wow.

SUE MORPHET

But if you’re running a business, you have to plan in advance for the amount of money that’s coming through. And if there’s a discrepancy on that, it needs to be resolved so that you can run your business appropriately. It appears that the ABC is not able to do that. The whole problem with this is the ABC has got one source of revenue – the government. Many other businesses can go and find other sources of revenue. Plus the fact that ABC is going through structural change. So, therefore, it has to find funds for structural change as well as running. The point to make, though, I think, is that…back to what Yasmin says, is that this institution is so powerfully loved and trusted by the Australian community. It is needed by the Australian community in the country, where media is falling off...

KATIE NOONAN

Yep.

SUE MORPHET

..and it is vital that we get news where we need it, we get service where we need it and we get culture where we need it. That will not come where commercial interests have to take heart.

PAUL FLETCHER

And, Sue, we strongly back the ABC. That’s why it’s funded with over a billion dollars a year, going up every year. Just last year, in the last budget, we committed an extra $43.7 million for additional regional and local news gathering for the ABC. So, the ABC has secure and rising funding. No other media business has the certainty of revenue that the ABC has. In fact, just about every other media business has seen a catastrophic drop in revenue this year due to a loss of advertising.

SUE MORPHET

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

BILL SHORTEN

Yes, but the rest of them aren’t the ABC. Like, you’re saying they’re all equal. I beg your pardon, Sue.

SUE MORPHET

Oh, no, no.

BILL SHORTEN

The reality is that in England they put $8.6 billion into the BBC. We put $1.1 billion. We’re a third of their population, but we only fund our public broadcaster one-eighth. 18 other comparable countries fund public broadcasting more. And you keep comparing them to Fairfax-Nine or News Limited. They’re profit-making entities. They don’t have the obligations the ABC has. I mean, this is one of the issues in the Eden-Monaro by-election. But in the bushfires, no-one else is rushing to do that job. In the Pacific, no-one else is rushing to do that job. We’re making a long-term mistake in our national interest, our national conversation. Media concentration is getting greater. The ABC is special.

PAUL FLETCHER

Of course the ABC is special. That’s why we provide substantial and growing funding for the ABC. And of course the ABC has done a good job in relation to the bushfires, as have commercial media. It’s done a good job in relation to COVID-19, as has commercial media. That’s why it’s got secure and rising funding. But we also need to recognise...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Minister...

PAUL FLETCHER

..that regional media is under pressure. That’s why we’ve committed $50 million in our Public Interest News Gathering Program for regional broadcasters and regional newspapers. And as a result of that, there will be newspapers reopening in country towns... (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Minister, I’m going to move on. I’ve got the figures here, though. You’re ignoring the fact in what you’re saying and talking about that…that 2019-2020 budget. “In the first year of the three-year period, the funding fell from $1,097 million to $1,084 million for the total budget and from $916 million to $900 million for the general operation or activities budget, and even with the continued increase in transmission and distribution” – and I think that’s where we get cute about the funding rising – “the total budget will still not recover to the 2018-’19 level as far off as ‘22-’23. The operational budget barely moves from 2019-’20 and remains lower than 2018-’19 for four years.” That’s what I call a cut!

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, Virginia, that is not true.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Well, the figures...the figures...

PAUL FLETCHER

Funding in 2019...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

We can’t waste any more time.

PAUL FLETCHER

..is higher...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I’m going to go to our next question. You have made the point several times, Minister. Our next question now comes from Marg D’Arcy.

MARG D’ARCY

Thanks, Virginia. I’m concerned that the actions that this government has taken seem to indicate that they’re more concerned about jobs for boys than they are for women. They’ve stopped JobKeeper for childcare workers before anyone else, a workforce made up mostly of women. They have allocated uncapped funds for construction workers, even though that is an industry that did not have to close down during the lockdown and that employs mostly men. Much research has shown that women are the worst-affected by the economic impact of the pandemic. Why is it, then, that your government appears to favour jobs for men in the recovery?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I’m not going to go to you first, Minister. I’m going to go to Sue Morphet and then to Yasmin.

SUE MORPHET

Thank you. Thank you very much, Virginia, and thank you, Marg, very much, for that question. You’re absolutely right. The... It is well known that women will be and have been worst-affected by this pandemic in their jobs and also that we know they’re going to come out of this crisis worse. Many women hold part-time jobs and hold casual jobs. As a matter of fact, women hold the greatest percentage of part-time jobs in Australia. And they are the ones that have been slipping through. So, we know that women are highly skilled, highly capable, and will really help the return to normality for our economy and for our community.

But we need some things. One, we’ve got to have stimulus into the sectors that employ the majority of women. That goes without saying. We know we have stimulus elsewhere, but construction is 90% men. And we’ve got all these women over here who do not have the same superannuation levels, do not have the same take-home pay, and have the burden of childcare. So, we need stimulus in their sectors and we need childcare, so that all women, irrespective of what they do, can take on any job they are offered, any shift that they’re offered, any extra hours or extra days, without childcare being the burden that it is for many, many households to work beyond part-time. And the women are so capable and the sectors are not well-rewarded, and they should be.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yasmin?

YASMIN POOLE

Well, I mean, we have long known that women’s productivity in the workforce enhances, you know, economic activity. But you know what I think this really reflects? I think this reflects the fact that the COVID-19 response is led by men – Scott Morrison, Greg Hunt, Brendan Murphy – it reflects the fact that the COVID-19 Coordination Commission only has two women and six men and no gender experts. Absolute shame. All that COVID-19 has done is revealed the existing flaws within the current economic system. The fact that women have a disproportionately high burden of care, performing almost double that amount of time at home. The pay gap. The fact that we have an ongoing masculine idea of leadership. And I actually don’t think it’s enough to simply say we need more women to enhance the economy. The actual economic structure is inherently unfair. We need more female leaders in this response to ask necessary feminist questions.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Katie Noonan.

KATIE NOONAN

Well, obviously, I’m a fiercely proud female artist, but actually coming back to some positive news, I mean, the arts sector is actually one of the...one of the sectors that does represent gender parity. It’s approximately 50% male and 50% women. So, the package that Minister Fletcher did announce on Friday is a truly good package for all of Australia, but, as you said, the construction sector is 13% female, mining is 9%, and I must admit the consultation process into this arts package seemed to be... I’m not sure if any women were involved at all. Well, certainly, none have come out publicly, and the two artists involved in the process were both male as well. So... I’m just trying to put a positive spin on things. At least this package is going out to a workforce that’s equal.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Minister, do you take the point that there’s a systemic problem, as Sue Morphet has pointed out, when you pull away that financial support from the childcare sector, that then, immediately, that disadvantages a massive part of the workforce that often finds it to get in in the first place...finds it hard, I mean?

PAUL FLETCHER

I think we do know that this recession, which has hit us very quickly and very sharply, the evidence suggests it’s hitting women harder than men.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Can you address some of Sue’s suggestions directly? What do you think might be...?

PAUL FLETCHER

It’s different to, say, the 1990 recession, which was typically affecting blue-collar men. Now we’ve got a recession which seems to be affecting women more.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

So, what’s the answer?

PAUL FLETCHER

Like a lot... Well, like a lot of things in economics, we’ll only really know, I guess, with hindsight exactly how the impact is felt.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Well, we can’t wait till then, though, can we?

PAUL FLETCHER

That appears to be the indication right now.

YASMIN POOLE

Minister Fletcher, I mean, it just goes to show, to be honest, you don’t have enough women in your party, but I can give you some tips. The first thing I need...I think we need is a gender disaggregated data around COVID-19 to understand how it’s disproportionately affecting women. We then need a gender-responsive budget in order to compensate that unfair economic structure, and when we talk about the economic impact of COVID-19, we also have to talk about the unpaid work economy and the informal work economy, which women disproportionately make up.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Sue Morphet?

SUE MORPHET

We have to look at the women who are capable of lifting our productivity that are staying at home because they can’t afford to leave home and do the extra work, so there’s that...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

So, just to jump in – is funded...one simple fix – is funded childcare the answer to that problem?

SUE MORPHET

Absolutely it is.

PAUL FLETCHER

Got it.

SUE MORPHET

Well-funded and very, very slowly drop-off over...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Slowly tapered off.

SUE MORPHET

Taper off so that women can work a full week, that’s number one.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Is that an impossibility, Minister?

PAUL FLETCHER

Uh, well, my colleague, Dan Tehan, the Education Minister, has worked very hard to, first of all, respond extremely quickly when we saw...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But we’re talking about what’s being taken away.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, we saw a number of childcare...uh, uh...centres facing an existential threat, so we moved very quickly. Of course, what we’ve now done is move to transition away from that because we’re also getting feedback from the sector about the temporary arrangements we’d put in and some concerns about...

SUE MORPHET

It needs a full review. Before the October budget, it needs a full review so that we’re in a position to capitalise on what we can going forward so that we can build our economy the best possible way, and we need women’s help to do it. I think also that there’s been many other areas of our...other sectors within our economy that have been particularly decimated throughout this period, and they predominantly employ women, such as hospitality and accommodation and retail and small businesses and food production, etc., and we need to have a look at the resources that we’re putting back into those sectors so that they can quickly employ, because part-timers are going to be the last ones to be employed and these particular sectors do employ part-time women.

YASMIN POOLE

And also the fact that women within that are not.. often disproportionately don’t receive JobKeeper because of being casuals.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I’m just going to move on to our next question – it comes...it’s in the studio and it comes from Joseph Zelez...Zeleznikow. Apologies for mangling your name, Joseph.

JOSEPH ZELEZNIKOW

It’s alright, it happens a lot. Hi, panel. Thanks for having me here. I first want to stress that my question is general and it’s to everyone – well, mainly the two MPs on the panel. How often does stacking happen in Australian politics? And how can anyone have faith in our political system with the amount of corruption that goes on?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

How often does branch stacking happen in Australian politics? I’ll take that one. All the time! But who should we start with? Bill Shorten, your party has been...

BILL SHORTEN

I guess I can start.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

..yeah, under big pressure. And, look, it’s not...

BILL SHORTEN

No, no, that’s alright...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

It’s not surprising, it’s gone on in your party for a very long time.

BILL SHORTEN

Well, first of all, and I’ll go to Joseph’s question, most people who get involved in politics – I know more about the Labor Party and the others might know more about other organisations – do it for the right reasons. What we saw recently was some footage of things done for all the wrong reasons and things which were done out of the gaze of most people, so we do have to have a full clean-up, but yet this has been done before, so it is frustrating that it’s happened again.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Well, I think that’s why the phrase ‘a full clean-up’ probably rings a bit hollow because...

BILL SHORTEN

I understand that reaction.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But, no, Bill Shorten, it has happened not only so often that the names of those people who were the powerful figures on either the left or the right in the Labor Party are household names. You know, we know the powerbrokers who do this and who either stack illegally or just get a whole lot of people signed up in order to bump someone out of their seat. What do you actually do to fix it?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, Malcolm Turnbull released his biography recently where he boasted about it...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

We’ll get to the Liberal Party in a moment.

BILL SHORTEN

No, no, but that happens to be a book on the public record – not that I’ve bought it but I read the excerpts.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah, yeah. I’ll get to that.

BILL SHORTEN

Sorry, Malcolm. In all fairness, I think that for the vast majority of people in political parties, this is as frustrating and as hair-pulling-out as it is for everyone else.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But the moment you hear of it, you do something about it. What I find hard to believe is that – the particular story we’re talking about in Victoria – the person involved there was reported in the paper, well, on a casual count, at least 10 news reports I would have read that I imagine the Premier would have read as well, and yet it comes as a dreadful shock and surprise that we find something bad is going on in the branch – come on!

BILL SHORTEN

I understand the scepticism, but what I don’t think that fairly describes is the motivation of most people in politics. There will always be people who will try and break the rules, and it’s hard to think of any set of rules where someone won’t try and get around them...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Sure, but what I’m talking about is what you do the moment you get a whiff of that, and it just seems that...

BILL SHORTEN

I actually think one thing...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

..in this case, there wasn’t much done.

BILL SHORTEN

I think one thing which we can do is set up a national anti-corruption commission. Because there’s such disillusion with politics and this adds to it, that I think politicians and other people in public life have to accept they’re going to get scrutinised, and that’s why I think a national anti-corruption commission would be a down payment, because people have heard parties make promises before – you need to see real change. And whilst I think that Steve Bracks and Jenny Macklin will engage in real change to their very best abilities, I actually think we need to change the way we do our politics in this country full stop, so that shortcuts aren’t the reason...

I got into politics to help workers, you know, I helped set up the NDIS, we’ve had a bit of a win recently on robodebt, and we keep pushing that. People are trying to do good things, but I think to re-win people back, we need to have a national anti-corruption commission. When I was leader, I didn’t wait till the Somyurek matter, I did this 2.5 years ago.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Sure, but I guess when you hear of the Adem Somyureks, maybe you move a little more... with a great deal more alacrity.

BILL SHORTEN

Well...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Minister, are you...?

BILL SHORTEN

Our problem was that we didn’t win the election, and it’s up to the current government to implement the anti-corruption bill...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Are you a fan of an anti-corruption commission?

PAUL FLETCHER

When I hear Bill Shorten talking about, you know, branch stacking, in the Labor Party, I’m reminded of Captain Renault in Casablanca – shocked, shocked to discover that gambling is going on. I mean, come on, Bill. I mean, really?

BILL SHORTEN

Well, that split an atom or two. Come on.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Do you like the idea of an anti-corruption commission?

PAUL FLETCHER

We’re committed to a Commonwealth integrity commission, so the Attorney-General has made that very clear.

BILL SHORTEN

Which decade?

PAUL FLETCHER

We’ve got plans for a Commonwealth integrity commission and we’ll be taking them forward.

BILL SHORTEN

Oh. That’s another thing people don’t like – is when we just don’t answer questions.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

How does it appear to you, Sue Morphet, from the business perspective, when you see this going on?

SUE MORPHET

Oh, I think we’re...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Not that your sector is pure as the driven snow from time to time either.

SUE MORPHET

No, it’s not, but we’re weary of it because... I think one of the really disappointing things about the last 15 years has been our considerable disenfran...we’re disenfranchised with the political process and politicians in general, and this has been a real chance to build back so much of that trust and goodwill in a crisis, and it’s just disappointing when we see this. And we just...just need to get rid of it so that we can shine.

PAUL FLETCHER

Can I just pick up on that point, Sue, ‘cause I think you make a very good point there. We, I think, as a country, and acknowledging we’ve seen a bit of a spike in Victoria, but I think there’s a lot of work going into getting on top of that, but as a country, I think we are in a fortunate position that most Australians have a greater trust in institutions now than they did three or four months ago. They have seen governments, state and federal, come together. They’ve seen engagement across parties. They’ve seen the outstanding work of our health professionals at the front line. They’ve seen a national focus on getting through this.

And I think, as a nation, we can all take some feeling that collectively, collectively – I emphasise collectively ‘cause I think just about every Australian has been involved in this. I mean, we were talking about the app earlier – to have almost 6.5 million people downloading an app is extraordinary.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Sure. Let me move on. Our next question is here in the studio. It comes from Lisa Hanlon.

LISA HANLON

As a teacher of young women, it is one of my roles to guide and encourage these students as they choose a rich and rewarding career path. It is interesting to note that all of the panellists on this evening’s panel and the host herself all hold a degree in the humanities, including arts, law and economics. One panellist has a degree in science, but even she has a degree in education. So my question is, who will hold interesting and rigorous panel show debates in the future, let alone lead our nation, if the LNP goes ahead and guts the humanities?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yasmin, I’ll start with you.

YASMIN POOLE

I mean, I think the first ironic thing is that Minister Dan Tehan is the one championing this policy, who himself has an arts degree, the fact that the past four prime ministers also have arts degrees and it’s one of the most popular qualifications in parliament. But, you know, speaking as a humanities student, and studying law and international relations, I actually don’t think it’s very smart policy in general. When I was considering what degree I wanted to take, you know, the overall cost wasn’t necessarily a factor because of HECS and the fact that I was looking at the degree and what my interests are and where I think it could take me.

And I also think it’s important... The reason why humanities is important and what the government is fundamentally misunderstanding is that it’s also a place for critical thought. You know, for example, I’ve just started taking an environmental law elective. Does that necessarily mean I’ll become an environmental lawyer? No, but it does reflect the fact that now I can look at the woeful government policy and understand perhaps where we could even fix it.

I also think it reflects the fact that the government misunderstands what the job force actually looks like. I mean, young people are expected to have 17 different jobs across five different careers. It’s no longer we just go to university and stick to that career path. So fundamentally, you know, absolutely humanities is important, and it just reflects the fact the government is not consulting with young people whatsoever – engage with young people, don’t punish them.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Katie Noonan, can I get you to jump in?

KATIE NOONAN

Ah, well, obviously, for me, I’m one of the ones that has a bachelor of music in the arts, and I’m obviously in that sector. Look, I’m not in the education sector, so I don’t really feel... I mean, to my understanding, this process was... Is it true that it came together with consultation with the unis? I mean, there hasn’t been much transparency into that process. I’d like to know more about how they got to those figures myself.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Minister, there’s some interesting analysis from the Mitchell Institute from Victoria University showing that getting a job has more to do with the level attained in your tertiary education, and little to do with the subject choice. So, if you make it harder – if you make it more expensive to get that degree – how is your policy achieving your stated aim of making people job-ready, if the subject, actually, is immaterial, but the level achieved is what you actually want?

PAUL FLETCHER

Hmm. Well, the rationale for the policy is to use, in the economics jargon, the price signal, to help, I guess, inform students about choices they make. So, for example, there’s been a substantial...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

To dissuade people, you mean?

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, there’s been... 60% of people will pay less or no more than today. So there’s a substantial drop in what you’ll pay for things like English, languages, maths...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Can I...can I take you to the question? The long dissertations are just, you know, chewing up time. The question being, if the analysis shows...

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, didn’t you ask me about the rationale for the policy?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

No, but the subject doesn’t matter, but the level attained, and you’re making it difficult for people to even get in or get that higher attained level.

PAUL FLETCHER

What you’re asking me is, why are we introducing this policy? And the reason is...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Well, “Can you achieve your stated aim?” is the question.

PAUL FLETCHER

Well, we believe we can, which is why we’re doing it. So, the intention is to, essentially, use the price signal to encourage students to choose degrees in areas that, the evidence suggests, will provide better job opportunities and a more...better prospect of employment.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah. Bill Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN

I think the policy – I weighed up using this term, it’s not very elegant – I think their higher-ed policy is a brain fart. I don’t think it solves anything. What happens is, essentially... And I’m a parent of two kids – one at uni, one at Year 12. Um... This is just... They’re going to squeeze an extra 39,000 people into uni – which is good – for the same amount of money. So that means the price has to go up.

Everyone knows universities became over-reliant on overseas students. The bottom’s fallen out of that market, and now it’s part of some culture war that they’re picking on an arts degree. I mean, the reality is that 90% of graduates get jobs, 93% of arts graduates get jobs. So, it’s not about job-ready, this is just a cost-cutting in drag.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

We’re going to have to move on, ‘cause we’re very short of time now. But our next question comes from Holly Walker.

HOLLY WALKER

Thank you. The grim reality in Australia is that one in three women experience sexual harassment at some point in their life, with the majority of that sexual harassment occurring in the workplace. As a recent graduate from law school, I’m terrified of the fact that, at some point in my career, I’m probably going to be sexually harassed. What do you say to the women of Australia who are terrified and who are getting deterred from pursuing their dreams because of these fears? And what will you do to ensure that we’re protected from predators like Dyson Heydon?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I’ll go right around the panel, but we’ll have to be brief, I’m afraid. Sue Morphet, I’ll start with you.

SUE MORPHET

OK, we’ve just done some research... First of all, zero tolerance is absolutely the way that every business should be, every institution, every community body. So, it’s unacceptable. But we’ve just done some research and done some work with WGEA – the women’s gender equity information agency – and it shows that, where we have balanced...balanced teams, where we have more women, we have better culture, better understanding, and we’ve got places where these sorts of things can be reported.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

OK. Bill Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN

Thanks, Holly. First of all, I hope that it’s changing for younger women now. I did a... After the Dyson Heydon story came out, someone smart said to me, “Go and talk to the women in your staff.” Because I was shocked, not that harassment happens, but I just sort of thought, for whatever reason – and I had no science to it – the High Court, top court, couldn’t happen there. So... I shouldn’t have been shocked. And this person said to me, “Go and ask your own staff, and have they experienced it in their working lives?” Some had. Some hadn’t. Everyone knew someone who had.

What was interesting though is that the women under 30 had less direct experience of it. That doesn’t mean that I think it’s automatically safe, but what I do think is that, gradually, men and women, younger men and women, hopefully, are changing their attitudes more. But I think Sue Morphet answered the question – the best answer – zero tolerance.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Katie Noonan?

KATIE NOONAN

Obviously, I echo the sentiments of zero tolerance. But, for me, I just think we need more women. We need more women in positions of power. We need more women in parliament. I mean, I’m lucky, I’m in Queensland. We have the most number of women in ministerial roles in Australian history, I believe. And the Premier made a commitment to every single government board being at least 50% female. And that culture, you know, just makes a huge change, and I’d love to see more women as chairwomen, you know, deputy chairs, and obviously more women in the ministerial roles of the LNP.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Paul Fletcher, what would be your suggestion?

PAUL FLETCHER

Look, it’s totally unacceptable. Everybody has a right to a safe workplace. And one of the things that troubled me most about what was reported last week was that I think at least three of the women involved had left the law after so many years of studying and getting to that point – to be a High Court associate is very keenly contested. That’s a great waste of all of that effort and all of that human potential. I hope they will make a great contribution in other areas. But it shouldn’t have happened.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yasmin.

YASMIN POOLE

It’s still happening. I haven’t even graduated yet, and it’s something that, you know... Situations that have made me feel uncomfortable, in mentorship settings, in networking settings. And I’ve actually relied on other women, usually, to help get me out of that scenario.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Have they done so?

YASMIN POOLE

Yes. They direct me away from a conversation and made me feel more comfortable. And as a law student, it’s really heartbreaking to see that this has even happened in the highest legal institution in Australia. And it just goes to show toxic attitudes towards power still remains embedded. A good thing is, though, I guess, out of all of this is the High Court’s response – legitimising and acknowledging survivors. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence it was led by a female chief justice. I echo the sentiments – gender-equal leadership is absolutely essential.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

It bears repeating, of course, that Dyson Heydon denies all allegations that have been made against him. Now, that’s all that we have time for tonight, so please thank our terrific pane – Yasmin Poole, Paul Fletcher, Katie Noonan, Bill Shorten, and Sue Morphet. And thanks to those of you here – our small but perfectly formed audience – and also at home for sharing your questions with us. And thanks to you, those of you streaming us on iview.

Now, Hamish will be back next week with a fabulous panel – Shaun Micallef, Brooke Boney, Christopher Pyne, and Terri Butler. Don’t miss that. And now it’s only fitting that we leave you with our new way of listening to music since lockdown. Here’s Katie Noonan with I Want To Dance With Somebody. I’ll be back on ABC Radio Melbourne very soon. Enjoy Katie, and goodnight.

KATIE NOONAN

# Clock strikes upon the hour

# And the sun begins to fade

# Still enough time to figure out

# How to chase my blues away

# I’ve done alright up to now

# It’s the light of day that shows me how

# And when the night falls

# My loneliness calls

# Oh, I wanna dance with somebody

# I want to feel the heat with somebody

# Yeah, I wanna dance with somebody

# With somebody who loves me

# Oh, I wanna dance with somebody

# I wanna feel the heat with somebody

# Yeah

# I wanna dance with somebody

# With somebody who loves me

# I’ve been in love and lost my senses

# Spinning through the town

# Sooner or later, the fever ends

# And I wind up feeling down

# I need a man who will take a chance

# On a love that burns hot enough to last

# So when the night falls

# My lonely heart calls

# Oh, I wanna dance with somebody

# I wanna feel the heat with somebody

# Yeah, I wanna dance with somebody

# With somebody who loves me

# Oh, I wanna dance with somebody

# I wanna feel the heat with somebody

# Yeah, I wanna dance with somebody

# With somebody who loves me

# Somebody who, somebody who

# Somebody who loves me, yeah

# Somebody who, somebody who

# To hold me in his arms

# I need a man who will take a chance

# On a love that burns hot enough to last

# So when the night falls

# My lonely heart calls

# Oh, I wanna dance with somebody

# I wanna feel the heat with somebody

# Yeah, I wanna dance with somebody

# With somebody who loves me

# I just wanna dance with somebody

# Who loves me. #