The Front Line
Panellist %
Lucy Morgan 25
Kerryn Phelps 19
Andrew Laming 16
Abbey Fistrovic 16
Vyom Sharma 13
Ged Kearney 11
HAMISH MACDONALD
The toughest lockdown measures ever seen in Australia are now in place in Melbourne. A strict curfew, business closures, disaster payments for sick workers. Six weeks that will be hard for many, but, we’re told, are critical to stopping the spread. Tonight, you’ll hear from grieving and worried relatives who are living through the nightmare of COVID outbreaks in aged-care homes. So, how did it go so wrong for a sector so vulnerable? And how do we make sure this is isolated, dealt with, and never repeated? We know you’ve got lots of questions tonight, so let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.
Hi, there. Joining me on the panel tonight: Dr Lucy Morgan, a lung specialist caring for people with severe COVID infection in Concord and Nepean hospitals in Sydney; joining us from Melbourne, GP Vyom Sharma; former AMA president, politician, and working GP Dr Kerryn Phelps; and clinical nurse specialist at the Royal Melbourne Hospital Abbey Fistrovic. And our politicians tonight are also from medical backgrounds: in Brisbane, from the Liberal National Party, the member for Bowman, Andrew Laming, worked as a doctor in rural as well as remote Indigenous communities, also in Afghanistan; and in Melbourne, the Shadow Assistant Minister for Aged Care, Ged Kearney, a former nurse as well. Please make them all feel welcome.
And such is the nature of these extraordinary times, Dr Morgan is actually on call tonight. Her phone is nearby. She’ll disappear, uh, if you get the call. We sincerely hope you don’t, but understand if you do.
And remember, you can stream us online. You can join the conversation as well on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. #QandA is the hashtag.
We always ask you at this point to play nicely, but I would like to add tonight that these are particularly tough times for many Australians. So, if you are engaging in social media, we ask that you do it respectfully. We ask our panellists to come here each week to discuss and debate in that spirit, and we hope that you can too. And if you are struggling, or if you’re finding your encounters on social media stressful or difficult, there are a range of terrific support services available, including Lifeline and Beyond Blue – their numbers are on your screen right now. And we’ll also use the graphics on screen during the show tonight to point to some of them. We will share your posts as well, in the usual way. And I should add as well that, everyone in lockdown, our thoughts are with you here across the rest of the country. We’re thinking of you at the moment. We are with you, and we do hope that you feel that.
Our first question tonight is a video from Margaret Healy in Sunbury, Victoria.
MARGARET HEALY, SUNBURY, VIC
A state of disaster has now been declared. In hindsight, perhaps Victoria should have taken this hard line to begin with. Does the panel think the community is too divided to follow the rules this time? And, if so, what can the authorities do about it?
HAMISH MACDONALD
Abbey?
ABBEY FISTROVIC, CLINICAL NURSE SPECIALIST, ROYAL MELBOURNE HOSPITAL
Look, I think hindsight is a wonderful thing, when we look back at what we could have done better or differently. The community, I think, especially with the second wave, we have, I guess, some COVID fatigue associated with being in this pandemic since March. Hopefully, with these new restrictions, we can, I guess, come together as a community, collectively. Because, ultimately, with the community transmission, we are now on the front line – in the community and in the hospitals. So I’m hoping that, with these restrictions, we can see the end of the pandemic, I guess.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Abbey, what has it been like in the hospital when those daily counts come through, when you get news of one of your colleagues testing positive for the virus? What’s that like? What does it do to morale?
ABBEY FISTROVIC
Look, it does... Morale’s been quite low at the moment. It’s been a roller-coaster since March. And I must say that, especially during the second wave, with the multitude of contributing factors, not just the huge numbers we’re seeing, but also the fact that my friends, my colleagues, and healthcare workers all over Victoria are now testing positive... We’re furloughing staff as a result of close contact tracing. We’re seeing multiple side effects of this pandemic now, more so than just the horrible numbers, and the unwell COVID patients, and the sick people that are coming into the department. But we’re faced with a multitude of other stresses, which are, you know, putting ourselves on the front line, and seeing COVID-positive healthcare workers, and we’re covered in PPE, we are struggling on the front line now, I think more so ever than we have been. And I think the community does need to be aware of that fact.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Vyom, struggling on the front line, is that the truth of it, as far as you can tell?
VYOM SHARMA, GENERAL PRACTITIONER
Yeah, look, we’re clearly concerned about these numbers. I mean, I’ve been working previously in the hotel quarantine program, but then, of course, when there were the nine towers that were locked down in Melbourne, I was involved there too. And, as you can imagine, it’s very emotionally taxing work to do. And now to see the numbers swell as they are, we’re all just kind of bracing ourselves for the influx of very severely ill people we’ll be seeing. GPs are being mobilised to potentially, you know, work in the nursing homes where people will need attention. And we’re concerned. We’re concerned about what’s going to happen to the community, but also we’re very concerned about healthcare workers who are getting infected. I mean, that’s the other story here. We’ve had roughly, I think, 11% of all active cases right now in Victoria are healthcare workers. So, if we’re not able to protect our healthcare capacity, that’s a huge problem. Of course, the government has a moral responsibility to look after that last line of defence. But also, if we can’t protect that capacity, we can’t protect the community. So there’s a lot of pressure at the moment.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Abbey, I just want to draw you back to the question, which is about whether the community is too divided, whether these new restrictions will be observed. I think, last Thursday night, you were working in trauma. What proportion of the cases that came through were people that had been observing the rules, doing the right thing?
ABBEY FISTROVIC
That’s a very interesting question. Look, comparatively to the first wave, we are seeing a significant amount of people who are not following the rules, which is making our job a lot harder, because we don’t just have sick COVID-19 patients – we have regular sick patients, and then we have patients coming through the front door who perhaps wouldn’t be there if they’d been following the rules. So that’s been a real challenge as well, because our normal capacity as an emergency department is huge. We see multiple...hundreds of patients a day. So, if you add in all those complex coronavirus patients with people that aren’t following the rules, you put increased pressure on an already pressured department and a pressured front line.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Alright. Let’s take our next question. It’s a video from Naim Melhem in Coburg, Victoria.
NAIM MELHEM, COBURG, VIC
Hi. We have seen what happened in Victoria, and it is on the increase. Yet we have the army and health officials door-knocking the people tested positive for COVID-19, and find them not isolating. They were outside home. This should be considered as a criminal matter. This is what the other states should learn from. And why aren’t they going hard and seriously on this matter? Thank you.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Dr Kerryn Phelps.
KERRYN PHELPS, FORMER AMA PRESIDENT
I think this is a really important question, because isolation is really the best thing that we have to protect the community when somebody has tested positive for COVID-19. The other thing that we can do, which is such a simple thing, is to have everyone in the community in masks. We need to anticipate that there will be a next wave in New South Wales. At the moment, the numbers are relatively low, but there’s nothing to say that they will remain low. We need to do whatever we can as a community. And it’s not about what you can get away with – it’s about what you can do to think about how you can contribute to suppressing the next wave, to elimination. Because what we need to do is to stop thinking about just suppression and living with COVID-19. We need to be thinking about elimination. We can do it. We got very close to it. We just needed to hold the line and get it...get it to the point where we had no community transmission anywhere in Australia, and then stop the virus from coming into the community.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Are you saying masks must be compulsory in New South Wales? Or in Sydney, at least?
KERRYN PHELPS
We need to head towards them being compulsory. There is now, I think, much stronger wording around the recommendations. Masks are strongly recommended in particular situations. For example, where you can’t physically distance – if you’re in a lift, if you’re in public transport, if you’re in an indoor environment where you can’t consistently maintain physical distancing. But, of course, we know with aerosol transmission now – with airborne transmission – that wearing a mask is some of the best protection that you can have. You protect yourself, you protect others.
There’s been this nonsensical debate for months now, which has been so frustrating because it just has not been evidence-based, about wearing masks. It is one of the single most responsible things that we can do as members of the community, to protect each other. What we need to do now is to work out which is the most appropriate form of masking to wear that’s affordable, accessible, and environmentally friendly.
HAMISH MACDONALD
I can see all of you nodding to this. But, Lucy Morgan, I do want to bring you in here. The question was about tougher penalties – criminality – if people are not observing the regulations, particularly when it comes to isolating. To someone working at the acute end of this, it must be shocking when you hear the numbers, certainly in Victoria, of people that were not at home when they were door-knocked after testing positive?
LUCY MORGAN LUNG SPECIALIST, NEPEAN & CONCORD HOSPITALS
Yeah, Hamish, there’s no doubt that that sort of fairly flagrant breach of recommendation is...is enormously frustrating. I mean, that’s an understatement. To see at that end of things. I guess the...the big deal is, what do you do about it? I don’t know what to say about the criminality. I guess, as a clinician, anybody that’s breaching those protocols is...is putting our community at risk, and that’s very frustrating. But I’m not sure that I think a shame game is very constructive. I think, in general principles, educating and supporting people, to make sure that people understand the right things to do, where there is a more constructive way around it. I’m certainly not in favour of public shaming.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Vyom?
VYOM SHARMA
Hamish, can...if I can jump in there, I mean, in Victoria, our home state, it’s actually been close to one in three people who were not isolating over the previous week. And I think I have as visceral a, you know, kind of bitter reaction as everyone else, but the truth is we have to look at the systems approach here. You know, why aren’t people doing this? Could it be it’s because people are waiting long periods of time for their test results to come back? Could it be because we had no paid pandemic leave until very recently? So we have to really consult with people, see what the issues are, address them. We have to raise, you know, kind of awareness and people’s understanding and then try to follow up with kind of carrots and sticks as, potentially, a last resort. What we don’t want, by being overly punitive, is to have this kind of compensation in people where they go, “Well, I don’t even want to end up in that position of someone kind of knocking up to my door checking if I’m isolating if I tested positive – I just won’t get tested.”
LUCY MORGAN
Hm, yep.
ABBEY FISTROVIC
Yep, good point.
VYOM SHARMA
So, you know, I have a pretty terrible, negative reaction, but the truth is, my anger, I realise, only has limited utility in this. It’s, exactly as Lucy said, “What do we do about it?” that matters.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Lucy, just on the masks – the point that Kerryn raised – she thinks we should be moving closer in other parts of the country, beyond Melbourne and Victoria. Do you have a view on this? I mean, it doesn’t cost a lot to say to people, “Wear masks,” but the cost of this spread getting out of control is enormous.
LUCY MORGAN
That’s a very good point. It doesn’t cost us much to wear a mask. In the early days, when there were low numbers of cases around, the actual usefulness of the masks was less important than the messaging about hand hygiene and about physical distancing. But, as the numbers increase, the risk of transmission gets higher and higher. And, surely, it’s a pretty easy thing to do for your community to wear a mask. So I think...I am...my feeling is I’m coming around to the idea that masks should be everywhere. We’ve always been wearing masks in hospitals. We’ve been wearing masks in clinical settings. But this is a different scenario. This is wearing masks in the community. And I agree with Kerryn that we should be wearing masks more and more.
HAMISH MACDONALD
OK. I’d like to, at this point, introduce you to two people who are living through the nightmare of what’s unfolding in Australia’s aged-care homes at the moment, particularly in Melbourne. Spiros Vasilakis is in Keilor Park tonight, and Christine Golding is in Brighton in Melbourne. Both of you, we’re really grateful to you for joining us this evening. And you’ve both gone through, sort of, unthinkable trauma in recent weeks.
Spiros, your mother died just over two weeks ago inside St Basil’s – this aged-care facility in Melbourne. Firstly, we’re dreadfully sorry to hear the news. Can you just talk us through what these last few weeks have been like?
SPIROS VASILAKIS
Trauma. That’s how I can describe it. We’re...my sister and I are still traumatised by...by what’s happened. We see our mum’s death as something that could have been avoided. We see the actual outbreak of COVID-19 at St Basil’s as something that could have been avoided. Yeah, we’re just completely lost as to why we lost our mother.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Your mother, Maria...
SPIROS VASILAKIS
Maria.
HAMISH MACDONALD
..died just over...
SPIROS VASILAKIS
Died last Thursday.
HAMISH MACDONALD
..two weeks ago.
SPIROS VASILAKIS
Yeah, last Thursday, 23 August. She passed away at the Northern Hospital. But, mind you, on that same day, in the afternoon that she was dying, we got a call from St Basil’s, from a social worker assigned there, telling us that our mum was there and they were monitoring her. And we had to stop this person and tell her that we had better give her the update on where our mum is, rather than her telling us.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Christine, your mother, Efraxia, is 84, as I understand it. She was also in the same aged-care facility. She’s since been moved. How scared are you for her right now?
CHRISTINE GOLDING
Well, I’m, you know... I feel some more confidence that she’s at the Peninsula Private rather than left at St Basil’s. But, naturally, I’m very afraid, and concerned that none of this should have happened in this way. We shouldn’t be in this position.
HAMISH MACDONALD
I mean, that’s...
CHRISTINE GOLDING
That’s what I’m really sad about.
HAMISH MACDONALD
I’m interested to hear from you – once the federal government moved in, the staff were stood down, the full staff, and replaced. Did things improve?
CHRISTINE GOLDING
No. It was catastrophic. It was a systemic failure. Catastrophic failure. They got worse, much worse. To the point where we heard that they couldn’t identify the positive COVID from the negative COVID. They were located in rooms next to each other. People were neglected. There was... People were dehydrated, people were malnourished. It was a case of neglect through and through, and with, you know, tragic consequences. It was terrible. To the point where the site was evacuated last Friday. And, you know, Aspen Medical clearly did not manage it effectively at all, at all.
HAMISH MACDONALD
You’ve both got questions for the panel tonight, but let me start with you, Spiros. What’s your question?
SPIROS VASILAKIS
The mandatory requirement for aged-care staff to wear PPE was not brought in until July 13. But why wouldn’t aged-care providers implement the wearing of PPE, mandatory for all staff, much earlier, off their own initiative, given that they were dealing with such a vulnerable group? It wouldn’t have hurt anyone to wear PPE, but the consequences of not wearing it have caused a disaster. Why would they not act in a preventive and a proactive way?
HAMISH MACDONALD
Kerryn Phelps?
KERRYN PHELPS
I think this is the question that we are all asking. Why was the precautionary principle not applied in aged-care homes? There should have been a preparedness audit done of aged-care homes as soon as we knew there was a COVID outbreak in Australia. Because it was so predictable that aged care would be a vulnerable sector, and indeed it has been. And we’re seeing in Victoria… I mean, these are the human faces of the numbers that we’re hearing about aged care fatalities in Victoria and elsewhere. And it is...it was so avoidable.
And just the simple fact of having aged-care workers trained in infection control and provided with PPE so that they were protected themselves, but also they were able to protect residents and other staff. And yet that didn’t happen. And it shouldn’t wait until the government says, “You must do this,” before it happens. It should be something that the aged-care sector should have taken onboard right from the start.
And this other issue about resident-to-staff ratios, that’s an issue that I’ve been hearing about for at least two decades. And it’s going on and on. And now is the time that we have to address this issue of funding in aged care – the funding that is applied to the actual care, the personal care of patients and residents, and also to the protection of staff and residents.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Abbey, you worked, I think, for a few years as a personal care attendant in aged-care facilities.
ABBEY FISTROVIC
I did.
HAMISH MACDONALD
I mean, all of the things now that we’re hearing about as the problems in aged-care facilities, we’ve known about for some time. None of this can shock you.
ABBEY FISTROVIC
Everything Kerryn said, I completely agree with. And we have known about these cri...this crisis in aged care for a very long time. I worked as a personal care attendant during my undergraduate of nursing 13 years ago. And the problems then are still the same as the problems now.
There are no mandatory requirements for personal care attendants with the amount of patients – sorry, residents – they look after. So sometimes you have one registered nurse for a facility with 100 residents. And when you have a casualised workforce that is paid too little, that work across multiple services in order to bring, you know, money into their homes and put food on the table, we have created this perfect storm, which has ended in tragedy for people with families in aged care. But we knew about it. We knew these problems. We’ve known them for decades.
VYOM SHARMA
And, Hamish, I would say...
HAMISH MACDONALD
Just hold on. I don’t want to be too blunt about this, Abbey, but to the points raised by both Christine and Spiros, in your view, was this situation preventable?
ABBEY FISTROVIC
It’s... I’m so sorry for what’s happened to both of them and I can’t imagine what they’ve been through, and this was preventable, because we could have prevented it 10 years ago when we could have implemented better ratios. We could have prevented it 10 years ago when we implemented, you know, more education for, perhaps, staff in relation to PPE and contamination. But you have to understand, these personal care attendants are not registered nurses. They’re there to care, to provide love and support, to feed. So, when you have one registered nurse in a facility, they cannot cope with 100...the needs of 100 residents in regards to PPE and all the other requirements.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Christine, you also have a question for the panel tonight. What is it?
CHRISTINE GOLDING
Yes. My question is, why wasn’t Australia, our federal and state governments, better prepared to manage the COVID-19 outbreaks at St Basil’s and other aged-care facilities, given what had happened at Newmarch House and given what we observed happening in the UK, Italy, Spain, and the USA?
HAMISH MACDONALD
Lucy Morgan, could we have learned something from the Newmarch House experience and done it better, avoided this in Victoria?
LUCY MORGAN
Yeah, Hamish. Christine, Spiros, I’m so sorry about your mums, and all the other elderly people who have been affected by this. I would like to bring a couple of comments about Newmarch, because it was the biggest outbreak in an aged-care facility in New South Wales, and it did happen, you know, weeks ahead of what’s happening in Melbourne. And there were some really important lessons learned from Newmarch House.
One of the lessons we learned was we could contain an outbreak in an aged-care facility. There were a lot of days when Newmarch was on the news, but, in fact, the time between the first case and the last case at Newmarch House was 18 days – so, one infection cycle of a...of COVID infection. That’s actually pretty amazing, that from the first case to the last case was 18 days. We learnt an enormous amount about COVID and COVID infection from Newmarch House, including the fact that we could contain the infection between residents – and, in fact, it was contained – that there were issues around PPE, but that there was also a major outbreak amongst the staff.
And what we learnt from Newmarch House was that staff actually were unwittingly, absolutely unwittingly, spreading the infection between each other. Not in the delivery of care to these aged-care residents, but, in fact, before work, after work, during their lunch breaks, when they took their PPE off and they shared a meal, they shared a car or public transport going home, they shared a drink to recover from the day’s trauma. So that was a time when, in fact, unwittingly, infections were being spread amongst the carers and then potentially back into the aged-care facility.
Now, we learnt this because we tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, and because there were fastidious...compliance with infection control rules and with the wearing of PPE. So we did learn things. Lots of patients at Newmarch House, very unfortunately, died, and that’s very, very sad, but lots of patients recovered, and some of those who recovered were well into their 90s. All the patients at Newmarch House had an advanced care directive that was discussed with them at the beginning of the outbreak, and all the patients at Newmarch House had care that was in keeping with their wishes. And so we learnt a lot of very important and very successful lessons.
HAMISH MACDONALD
On that note, I want to bring our politicians in, because they’re joining us tonight from Queensland and from Melbourne. Ged Kearney is in Melbourne. Andrew Laming is in Brisbane. Thank you so much to you two for joining us. Andrew Laming, none of this is a surprise to anyone that knows anything about the aged-care system. Why didn’t your government do more to prevent what has happened in Melbourne?
ANDREW LAMING, LIBERAL MEMBER FOR BOWMAN
Well, first of all, my condolences to the two guests, Christine and Spiros, for your loss. And from Queensland, obviously to the entire state of Victoria, Melburnians in particular, our hearts are with you as you go through this really, really tough time. In answer to your question, the federal government has basically...as you would have heard the Prime Minister, at 6:00pm tonight, say that the number one issue for the federal government is complete and unconditional support for Victoria. But more specifically in aged-care facilities, let’s remember that there is thousands upon thousands of aged-care facilities that have learnt the lessons we’ve just run through tonight and realised that vigilance is so critical. And they are doing the right thing and have been able to contain and prevent COVID in these extremely dangerous circumstances. Now, remember that age is one risk factor to COVID, so are a number of other elements of vulnerability, ill health and chronic disease. So all of these populations, we have to be extremely cautious with. It’s not just residents of aged-care facilities. And so that means...
HAMISH MACDONALD
With respect, Andrew...Andrew Laming, I just want to draw your attention, though, to Australia’s Aged Care Workforce Strategy independent task force, which was set up in 2017. It was led by Professor John Pollaers. I’m sure you’re familiar with this. It was designed to fix a lot of the issues, including mass casualisation, skills gaps, high staff turnover, all of these contributing factors that are being discussed tonight. The report was handed down in June 2018. Now, Professor Pollaers has told us that to date there has been no detailed response at all from government to the recommendations – 14 of them in total. Why is that?
ANDREW LAMING
There has to be a response, and it has to be given to the professor. But on the ground, of course, what’s the greater concern is the training and the reinforcement of those requirements around COVID...
HAMISH MACDONALD
But, with respect, why?
ANDREW LAMING
..that should be happening in every aged-care facility...
HAMISH MACDONALD
Yeah, but the question is, why?
ANDREW LAMING
..around the country.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Why no response?
ANDREW LAMING
It has to be done.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Why no response?
ANDREW LAMING
I think the focus is probably right now on the front line, would be the answer, in every aged-care facility, making sure that support, training, reinforcement for all staff – not just the clinical staff, but for the non-clinical staff, cleaners and support staff... All of those are asking the very questions, “How do I lift in this crisis? Where do I go? What do I need to know? And how do I do it?” And my experience, which is more so in hospitals than aged care, is that, from the radiographers to the allied health to the wardsmen, right through to the nurses, the gaps in medical rosters, they’re all being fixed, and people are finding a way to do it. Keeping in mind that, for most of this crisis so far, Hamish, we’ve had no certainty of supply of PPE, and we’ve had to work extremely hard through a task force to fill that national stockpile and be able to release it to the areas that need most.
And the final observation, as we’ve seen the mask policy and recommendations change over the last few months, is that we’ve got to make sure that those masks are available when we start recommending them, and for much of this time we haven’t been confident that we’ve been able to tell the general public to go out and buy masks and be sure that when they did try to get them they’d be there for sale in retail environments. So, bringing in 250 million pieces of PPE in six or so flights out of China alone to simply supply the market in Australia was a massive logistic challenge in a very short period of time.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Ged Kearney, the 14 recommendations from the task force were made in June 2018. The report said that they could be implemented over a one-to-three-year period. That would put us squarely in the time frame that we’re in now. Do you have any understanding of why there’s been no response, no detailed response at all, according to John Pollaers?
GED KEARNEY, SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR AGED CARE
I have no idea, other than to say that the Morrison government has failed aged care. The Pollaers report is a seminal report. It talks about the workforce – there’s not enough workers. Everything that Abbey talked about. There’s not enough of them. They’re not supported by a proper skill-mixed workforce. We have wonderful carers who work very hard, but they’re not supported by enough nurses or doctors or access to physiotherapists, et cetera.
Pollaers talked about the workforce being completely disempowered. Like, they cannot speak up for fear of losing their jobs. They are casually employed, they’re precariously employed, they have to work across several facilities just to make a living. And this is a workforce that is working in a – Pollaers said – a sector that has a culture problem, where it is privately operated, there are organisations that are run for profit, and you really have to question the goal of those organisations.
But it’s just part of a broader systemic failure that the whole system is facing. There’s lack of accountability and transparency for the funding that goes into aged care. People may not know that, across the whole aged-care sector, about $20 billion of federal funding goes into that sector without proper accountability or transparency for it. They don’t have to acquit for where that money goes.
So when I hear the dreadful stories of Christine and Spiros... And thank you so much, and my heartfelt condolences to everybody who is really struggling with the aged-care sector right now, including the workers who are working in the sector, who are wonderful. The public has a right to know, those families have a right to know, that every cent of public funding goes to care. And we don’t know that. We’ve just heard recently that some of it seems to be going to fund multimillion-dollar mansions in Toorak, and Maseratis. You know, the families of those people don’t need to know that, don’t want to know that.
HAMISH MACDONALD
I’m just going to pull you up there. Christine, while we have you, are you satisfied with the response you’ve heard from government tonight?
CHRISTINE GOLDING
I haven’t really got a clear answer yet, I must admit. I’m sort of partly satisfied, if I’m honest. So, yeah, I guess my question is, why weren’t we prepared? Certainly, we’ve discussed the...the situation with the care, the staff ratio, which is really important, and I know it’s been brought up at the royal commission. And it’s something that’s been discussed for many years and needs to be addressed. But I’m particularly interested in, why weren’t we prepared? Why wasn’t there...why isn’t there and why wasn’t there an overarching strategy to make sure that, when COVID-19 hit our aged-care facilities, bearing in mind that we’ve been aware of this since, you know, March... Why weren’t we prepared? Why wasn’t there an Australia-wide strategy...
HAMISH MACDONALD
Christine, Spiros...
CHRISTINE GOLDING
..that could be implemented?
HAMISH MACDONALD
..we’re so grateful to you both for joining us tonight. Thank you very much for your time.
CHRISTINE GOLDING
Thank you.
SPIROS VASILAKIS
Thank you.
CHRISTINE GOLDING
Thank you very much.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Our next question tonight is a video from David Hart in Leichhardt, New South Wales.
DAVID HART, LEICHHARDT, NSW
Many of the coronavirus cases have occurred because part-time or casual staff could not afford to self-isolate, because they were not included in the government’s paid pandemic leave. Many of these casual workers also had several jobs, requiring them to travel to different employment, making ring-fencing almost impossible. If any casual or part-time employee is told to self-isolate, will the federal government immediately offer the same pandemic leave income protection as you have for Victorian casual employees from today? Thank you.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Andrew Laming?
ANDREW LAMING
And you’ve heard tonight from the Prime Minister that’s indeed what will happen, in the form of a national pandemic payment where a disaster effectively has been declared, and based somewhat on the bushfire payments, and using the same phone number, I understand, the 180 22 66, for those that have inquiries. Remembering that this payment is absolutely essential for casual staff who can’t rely on having leave or in cases where you’ve exhausted all of those leave payments, I think that $1,500 a fortnight for those that isolate is a good one, and it’s available for other states, and it’s open-ended until, of course, we know that this crisis comes to an end.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Ged Kearney, this is obviously something that’s been talked about for a long time. Does it come too late, in your view?
GED KEARNEY
Yes, I think it does. I think that... You know, we talked before about what’s happened in Victoria. We know now, with the data that we have, that about 80% of cases can be related back to the workforce. And this is where we need to be focusing from here on in. And we’ve been saying for weeks that pandemic leave is a vital part of that.
I hear Andrew saying that it is available Australia-wide – I mean, I hope that is true – and not just for Victorians. Because what we know in other states, although it may not be as widespread, is that states like New South Wales, who are at the moment are playing, like, whack-a-mole with outbreaks of the virus, popping up here and popping there…what we do know about the virus is it’s very slippery – it will find a crack and slip through and, before you know it, you have community transmission like we have in Victoria.
So it’s vitally important that people right across the country can access this leave, that it’s easily accessible, there’s plenty of education about how to get it. And we don’t want people making that choice of, “Do I go to work because I’m frightened of losing my job or not having the income and not being able to pay the rent, or do I stay home and keep everybody healthy and safe?”
HAMISH MACDONALD
And, Andrew Laming, I do just want to clarify that – it is available nation-wide, you’re telling us?
ANDREW LAMING
If the states declare a pandemic emergency, they become eligible, just as Victoria is at the moment.
HAMISH MACDONALD
But they would have to do that?
GED KEARNEY
Oh.
HAMISH MACDONALD
In New South Wales right now, you can’t claim this pandemic pay?
ANDREW LAMING
No, but the New South Wales government is welcome to do that, and then they become eligible. And it’s similar to the bushfire payments. I would presume it would be a contribution from both state and the Commonwealth. Nothing preventing New South Wales from doing that.
HAMISH MACDONALD
But isn’t the point of the payment to try and prevent a disaster? Why only make it available once the disaster is declared?
ANDREW LAMING
Because you have a disaster when you’ve got people needing to leave the workforce for two weeks, and a state can instantly make that declaration, I would understand, and they would become eligible. There’s no problem with that. You’ve seen that with Victoria. That’s how it works. It would happen in Queensland, where we’re fighting with a small number of cases per day, but obviously under control. So it’s not yet at that situation where we’re asking large numbers of people to stop working for two weeks.
HAMISH MACDONALD
OK. Our next question tonight...
GED KEARNEY
Hamish, can I just pop in there?
HAMISH MACDONALD
..is a video from Peter Morris in Mornington, Victoria.
PETER MORRIS, MORNINGTON, VIC
As a doctor in Victoria, I’m obviously concerned about the increasing threat of coronavirus. I am appalled by the behaviour of several of the most outspoken Victorian opposition MPs, who are continually undermining the government’s COVID advice and safety messages. This has led to complacency among some Victorians. These politicians often use Twitter to spread their political messages, when they should be encouraging people to stay home and get tested if they have symptoms, to wear a mask and socially distance, in order to stop the spread of the virus. My question is to Andrew Laming and the panel. As an elected MP, regardless of your party, shouldn’t the needs of your constituents and their safety be the most important priority ahead of this political rhetoric? Thank you.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Alright. I will put that to our politicians, but let me start with someone on our panel. Vyom Sharma, I know you’ve been tangling with some politicians in your state online in recent weeks. What’s your view?
VYOM SHARMA
You know, I really think, in Victoria, we could benefit from a very effective opposition party. We need someone holding the government accountable. And there’s been so many ways for...so many opportunities for them to do that, to give some constructive criticism, some thorough levels of analysis. And yet, instead, we just see just kind of name-calling, retweeting articles, saying the word ‘unbelievable’, and, you know, just whining about golf. It’s ridiculous. We definitely need to hold governments on both levels accountable. And yet, you know, we’re just... In fact, we’re seeing certain MPs block experts from accessing their Twitter feeds...
HAMISH MACDONALD
Are you talking about yourself?
VYOM SHARMA
..because they know they will get called out on the facts.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Are you talking about yourself and your interactions with Tim Smith?
VYOM SHARMA
Oh, look, I might be. Yeah, sure. But not just me. Many other medical professionals have been blocked by this nefarious character. And...and it’s bizarre. It’s not so much that it’s the abuse or anything that’s causing Tim Smith to block people, it’s experts calling out factual inaccuracies. And that’s just not good enough. Is this really what we want to see in parliament? I think people deserve better. We deserve a better opposition.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Abbey, does it actually make the treatment of this, the dealing with the crisis, harder when you’re having politicians engaging in this sort of stuff? And it must be said, at a national level at least, you’re seeing a bit of it on both sides.
ABBEY FISTROVIC
It’s interesting. It’s exactly the same as the politicising about mask wearing. It is a global pandemic. It is a healthcare emergency. We are not here to talk about the politics of the mask versus, you know, the anti-maskers. We are here to take care of sick people. We are in a crisis. So I think we need to stop politicising this entire process. We are all trying to do the best we can. But, ultimately, it is a healthcare crisis. That is the prime problem with the pandemic.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Andrew Laming, do you wish some of your colleagues would lay off the keyboard and the smartphone a little bit and just refrain from some of this rancour on social media?
ANDREW LAMING
Well, I’m a big fan of democracy, vigorous democracy, but it’s got to be fact against fact. I’m a big fan of Tim Smith and his work. I don’t follow his Twitter account. But let me say, I’ve also agonised over the degree to which you should give support to our CMOs and CHOs. At the moment, it’s unconditional support from me. But where you see a departure from health recommendations, when politicians apply them, then of course an opposition needs to stand up. So my answer to you would be, if it’s based on the science, let’s support the CHO, but if the CHO gives advice, it’s not released by the Premier of the state and then you’re doing something non-scientific in your recommendations, of course the opposition, of course the citizenry, have to stand up against non-scientific recommendations from a government.
HAMISH MACDONALD
So what do you make of your federal colleague Craig Kelly? He’s posted 19 times on his Facebook page since August 1 about hydroxychloroquine. He suggested that Dan Andrews could face jail for banning hydroxychloroquine. As a medical professional, what do you make of your colleague talking about this stuff in this way?
ANDREW LAMING
I can cherry pick politicians and say all sorts of stuff. If you don’t like what they say, unfriend them and don’t follow them. He’s not in the cabinet. I mean, my message was, how many children do you want attending school in the March-April crisis? If we agreed that it’s the children of essential workers and vulnerable families, well, that is nearly half of your population. If you’ve only got 10% of children at school because you’ve got an Education Department dissuading children from turning up, then someone’s got to stand up for those children. I chose to do that. It put me almost at odds with the Chief Health Officer, but she wasn’t allowed to release her advice she had given to the Premier. So, there’s very good reason for an opposition, or for any MP or any citizen, to stand up against any government if they feel the science is being ignored.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Lucy Morgan, I can see you very eager to get in here.
LUCY MORGAN
Oh, look, I was eager a minute or two ago to just make the point that it was a great source of pride for Australians in the early part of this pandemic that we had had such a national, united...non-partisan approach to dealing with the pandemic. And, you know, Q+A was full of united voices supporting each other, and I think it’s one of the sad things about this second phase of this pandemic that we are starting to bicker about tweets between us and we’ve become partisan. I think that’s very sad.
The other thing – I wanted to take it back to some clinical stuff, if I could, just very briefly. Two clinical points that came out of something Andrew mentioned earlier. One is the issue of Australians who have chronic health conditions versus the risk that our elderly Australians living in aged-care facilities. I think these are very different groups.
And I wanted to just make the point that people with chronic health conditions have actually fared remarkably well in Australia in this pandemic because – those who are living at home – because they’ve been able to stay in their home, they’ve been able to isolate, and there have been support networks that have been able to keep them away from the virus. And we know that they have actually not caught COVID-19 at the same rate that other people have caught it because they’ve been home and they’ve stayed at home and they’ve followed the recommendations and they’ve stayed well.
The reason that our aged care – that our family members in aged care – have caught this virus and died so frequently is because that is their home, and they are not isolated. They’re in an aged-care facility. So, Andrew, with respect, it’s a totally different ball game to be talking about COVID-19 in aged-care facilities. The second thing is...
ANDREW LAMING
Couldn’t disagree.
LUCY MORGAN
..is something slightly less acute, and that is the fact that we’re not talking about two weeks off work for a healthcare worker who catches COVID-19. Two weeks is the time for quarantine while you’re exposed or waiting for testing. If you’re a healthcare worker who catches COVID-19, you are going to be off work for a very long time. If you have a significant infection that requires hospitalisation, you are likely to be in hospital for quite a long time. But then, when you’re out of hospital, it takes weeks and weeks to recover, and we don’t really know what the long-term consequences or the long-term tempo of catching this infection is. So, if you’re a nurse or a nurse’s aide, if you’re any sort of clinician, any healthcare worker who catches a COVID infection, you are off the work...out of the workplace and off the front line for a very, very long time. If you’ve been in intensive care, it is weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks before you even feel well enough. And one of the things that I’m seeing in patients who’ve caught COVID and have recovered is that there is a very prolonged post-viral syndrome that has a variety of clinical features, but is characterised almost universally by prolonged fatigue, prolonged depression and anxiety, joint pains, headaches – all sorts of things that don’t relate to catching a pneumonia. But these are so significant that returning to the workplace is almost impossible. So, this is a workforce that’s being decimated by the infection, and will not be back on the front line quickly, and I think we need to remember that as well.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Ged Kearney, I know, very early on in this, you lost your father-in-law to COVID-19. Do you think we sort of owe it as a community to those that have been lost through this to actually step up and do a bit better as this sort of second wave, if we’re calling it that, pushes through the population?
GED KEARNEY
Absolutely, Hamish, we do. And I think one of the dangers in this time is that the statistics become just statistics. You’re right – my beloved father-in-law died very early on of COVID. He was doing all the right things. He had stayed at home. He’d only gone out to the shops a couple of times, and he contracted it and, tragically, passed away. And it was one of the most traumatic experiences, I think, of our family’s life, having to go through that. So, behind every number, there is a grieving family, a loved one who will be sorely missed, and we can’t forget that. And I think that this last spike in Victoria, when we heard the numbers go up, everybody took a deep breath in and everybody was shocked by that. And I really hope that those two things combined…that, you know, everybody needs to do their absolute best, because I do know...I feel very much for everybody who’s been affected by it, and as the numbers grow, sadly, more and more of us will be.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Alright. Hey, Ged, we’re really sorry for your loss as well, and thinking of you and your family.
GED KEARNEY
Thank you.
HAMISH MACDONALD
To both you and Andrew, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We appreciate it.
GED KEARNEY
Thank you very much, Hamish.
ANDREW LAMING
Thank you.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Alright. Let’s take our next question tonight. It’s from John Partridge in the studio.
JOHN PARTRIDGE
Thanks, Hamish. Before I start, I’d like to thank the four professionals here because we are hearing on-the-ground, front-line, tarmac stuff, not controlled stuff from politicians, with all due respect to the politician who spoke. Kerryn Phelps mentioned, in New South Wales, wearing masks. I couldn’t concur more. We are tracking two or three weeks behind Victoria, surely, and it was concurred by both Abbey...
HAMISH MACDONALD
Can we get to your question, please, sir, with respect?
JOHN PARTRIDGE
OK. This virus is moving faster than Usain Bolt. I have four daughters. They don’t necessarily read newspapers, nor do they watch television news, ever, and they’re educated girls. They get their information totally from social media. How are we going to get the message through to them that, as a group, women aged 20 to 29…that they have the highest number of infections? This is a really vitally important question. The highest group is 20-to-29 women.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Kerryn Phelps?
KERRYN PHELPS
Thank you so much for that question. I think it’s really important, because we do have to get the message across to young people in that age group that they have a great community responsibility – they have a responsibility to themselves, to their friends, to their family, to their older relatives and to the community generally. And if they want to get their lives back on track and not face the kind of strict lockdowns that we’re seeing in Victoria in the longer term, then they need to play their part, and playing their part means doing everything they can not to catch that infection.
So, whether that means wearing a mask when they go to the supermarket or when they’re in a lift or on public transport, whether that means not going to a crowded bar, whether that means not having a party or trying to get away with something, then that’s what they need to do. And we also need to get the message across that just because you’re aged between 20 and 29 doesn’t mean you’re not going to suffer one of these serious consequences that Lucy here is talking about, because you can be young and become very sick and die from COVID-19.
HAMISH MACDONALD
But is there a problem here – and I’m interested, Lucy, in your thoughts on this – in confronting the really difficult reality of this, which would be saying to young women, “You can’t actually live the life that you want for quite some time”? Lucy?
LUCY MORGAN
No, we can’t live the life that we used to live. It is confronting. I guess, for clinicians working every day, that’s our normality. We’re not working from home. We’re seeing it every day. Even for all of us, there is a certain degree of COVID fatigue. It’s not about forgetting to wear your masks, but it’s just thinking about it constantly. And that’s happening for all Australians, I suspect. Even our kids who might be at school might not be reading the papers, but they know what’s going on. Yes. Yes, it’s confronting. Yes, it’s never going to be the same, but...
HAMISH MACDONALD
But how do you communicate that to a mass population? How do you say to every young person here that’s, you know, possibly had to pull out of education or doesn’t have a job because they just can’t get one or they’ve lost their cafe job, “You know what? With all this spare time, you can’t go and have a party. You can’t do the things you want”?
LUCY MORGAN
Look, it’s very, very difficult. I don’t know that I’ve got the answers. Kerryn might have some better suggestions than I have, actually.
KERRYN PHELPS
I think there’s two things. One is we have to speak in the language of young people, and that means that they need to speak to each other. We also need to go to where young people are getting their information from – from TikTok, Facebook, wherever they are communicating with each other. We need to be going through the universities and saying, “OK, university... Yeah, it’s really tough that you can’t go to university events, that you have to do your university tutorials on Zoom for months and months, that you can’t get involved in the normal kind of university debates and politics that people love going to university for.”
But it’s also... If we get this right, it’s a temporary measure. If we don’t get this right, it’s going to go on for much, much longer. So, I think that the message to young people is, if you want to nail this, if you want to help us get this under control and eliminate COVID-19 from Australia, which I believe we can do... We’ve done it once. Went very close to eliminating it. We can do it again, but we have to commit to it, and everyone has to commit to it. And if you do commit to it, then you have a chance of being a part of that solution and of ending this period of time for Australia.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Abbey, you’ve been pretty prolific on the socials.
ABBEY FISTROVIC
(CHUCKLES) Yeah. Look, I want to agree with Kerryn completely. In targeting a younger audience, we do need to be quite strategic. I was quite vocal on Facebook. I did put a plea to the front line, I guess you’d call it, and that was because I realised that the community was disengaged and I guess not really listening to the restrictions, and the best way for me to get their attention was through Facebook.
I also want to address the elephant in the room that, as a young person, I want to speak to the other young people and I want to say that this virus does not discriminate. I have been in the room when we have intubated 30-year-old people. We’ve put them on ventilators, we’ve sent them up to the ICU. They are critically unwell. So, I don’t want the young people of today walking around believing that you are invincible to this. You are just as susceptible, and, yes, perhaps not as susceptible as our elderly, but they’re our...they’re our...they’re our history. These are the people that we need to do the right thing for, so that we can take care of them but also ourselves. We have a community responsibility to do the right thing.
LUCY MORGAN
I think the other... Can I mention, Hamish, that...that there’s no doubt that older people are dying at higher rates than younger people with COVID. But as the numbers of cases go up, there will be younger and younger people. It’s just a numbers game. There will be younger people who do catch this virus, and there’ll be children who catch this virus.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Just... You did speak to the longer-term implications of this. Thomas Hudson wrote in to us this week from South Yarra. He tested positive for COVID. Five months on, he still doesn’t feel right. He’s got shortness of breath, he experiences heart palpitations, he’s got serious fatigue issues – all things that he hasn’t experienced before. I know you’re saying we don’t have all the answers, but do we know what this can do to a young person?
LUCY MORGAN
Well, Thomas’s experience is similar to several patients that I’ve been looking after...and this prolonged fatigue, significant anxiety and depression symptoms are very characteristic. We... None of us, nowhere in the world, has had enough time to have anything more than sort of six months of follow-up of patients with COVID-19. Even the first outbreaks, remember, are only just before Christmas, and it’s only August. So, we don’t know what the very long-term outcomes are going to be, but certainly Thomas’s experience is not unique, and we...clinicians are anticipating a significant burden of this infection that will go on and on, you know, for many months, if not years to come.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Alright. Our next question tonight is from Tom Paterson in Gilberton, South Australia.
Alright. Not sure if that’s going to work. Shall we give it another go? We might give it another try. This is a great question about what we might be all doing by Christmastime. We’ll see if it will fire off again. This is live television, folks. Here it is. Tom Paterson in Gilberton, South Australia.
TOM PATERSON, GILBERTON, SA
My wife and I live in Adelaide, our son lives in Sydney, and our daughter lives in Melbourne. We celebrate Christmas as a family every other year, and our year is this December. They plan to fly in on Christmas Eve and fly home on Boxing Day. What does the panel think is the chance of us being able to celebrate Christmas as a family this year? Thank you.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Vyom Sharma.
VYOM SHARMA
Well, I think the chances of us doing that depend purely on how genuinely devoted the government is to the plan that they say they have, which is this new term they’ve created – “aggressive suppression” with a goal of zero transmission. So, they’ve reaffirmed this, just a few...few weeks ago, and yet I don’t really see the signs that’s what we’re exact...that’s what we’re committed to.
What I do think, I think, to kind of echo the point that Kerryn was making earlier, is that we have a chance right now that if we can get Victoria under control, if we can apply the lessons we’ve learned from Newmarch, as Lucy was saying earlier, and apply them, and the states get their act together and we...we coordinate our strategy nationally, that we can actually drive towards zero transmission, that’s the point at which we can confidently say that travel can...can occur freely in the ways that we might be seeing in New Zealand.
Until that point, we will have uncertainty, we will have huge amounts of risks. You can’t have travel when one state is lagging behind and the others are fine. It’s just not going to work. Another part of it is going to be having excellent kind of isolation for people at risk, and potentially purpose-built quarantine, as we’re seeing this kind of quarantine-at-home stuff is just falling apart in all the other states. It’s just not going to work without genuine commitment to what the government says the goal is, and we’re not seeing them act that way.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Abbey, I just wonder whether the current border closures give people almost a false sense that this is isolated to Victoria. I mean, it is in a sense, but this line, that I suppose for many has become trite – “We are all in this together”...
ABBEY FISTROVIC
Mm.
HAMISH MACDONALD
..it is true, isn’t it? I mean, as far as the virus is concerned, everyone on this continent is in this until we get on top of it.
ABBEY FISTROVIC
We are all very much susceptible to this, and we’re seeing it in New South Wales, who I hope have learnt lessons from Victoria, but they seem to be at the start of perhaps what we were a couple of weeks ago. So, I really hope that you get your trip with your family and you make it for Christmas, but I guess from a front-line healthcare perspective, only when we bring these numbers down, only when we, I guess, adhere to the social distancing, mask wearing, can we even begin to imagine decreasing community transmission and getting back to a normal life and things like getting to family and Christmas.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Lucy Morgan, you make any interstate travel plans for Christmas yet?
LUCY MORGAN
No. I think there might be camping on the Murray, or something. We might all drive, and...in our own little tents. Look, I think it’s going to be a very long time before we’re travelling internationally. And we live in a very big country. I think it’s going to be a long time before we’re going to be able to fly as frequently as we’ve all become used to doing. I would hope that by Christmas you’re able to get together with your family in Adelaide, but I don’t know that anybody will be flying in on Christmas Eve and leaving on Boxing Day.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Do you think we will sort of live with some form of quarantining, really long-term? Is that the reality, Kerryn?
KERRYN PHELPS
I think we’ll definitely be living with a form of quarantining. We haven’t got very good at quarantining yet, and we’ve heard about people breaking self-isolation and putting other people in the community at risk. I’m concerned that there are still planes coming in from Melbourne to Sydney without any checking and with people just being asked to self-isolate in Sydney when they arrive. We don’t know how many people are actually doing the self-isolating when they arrive. I believe there are 17 planes coming from Melbourne to Sydney tomorrow. That’s not a closed border. That’s a very leaky sieve. And, so, you know, when we know that there are thousands of active cases in Victoria, there could be up to 10 times as many people who are infected who don’t know it, and yet we’re just letting people get on planes without having a test before they get on the plane, arriving in Sydney and dispersing into the community. I mean, what could possibly go wrong? I mean, it’s...it’s obvious that New South Wales is on a precipice, and unless we take this seriously and unless we actually have an effective closed border, we are going to see leakage of these cases from Victoria over to New South Wales.
HAMISH MACDONALD
Alright. Well, that is all we’ve got time for tonight. A huge thanks to our panel: Lucy Morgan, Vyom Sharma, Kerryn Phelps and Abbey Fistrovic. Please put your hands together. I hope for all of your sake that by Christmas, you know, you can see your families, and I know you’re probably among our most popular panels all year, if not ever. From all of us, thank you for all of the hard work that you and all of your colleagues are doing. I feel genuinely quite honoured to...to sit with you tonight and have this conversation, so thank you very much.
LUCY MORGAN
Thanks, Hamish.
KERRYN PHELPS
Thank you, Hamish.
LUCY MORGAN
Thanks for having us.
HAMISH MACDONALD
And thanks to those of you here in the studio and at home for sharing your questions. Thanks for your company to those of you as well streaming us on iview. We will leave you tonight with a woman of many talents. She’s an artist and a trained doctor. Here’s Gordi with the song Volcanic.
GORDI
# Was it in a vacuum?
# Is it that it’s only you that runs as deep?
# Trying to find something to climb that doesn’t feel so steep
# Am I burning us out to keep your interests piqued?
# Go down with me
# I have these moments where I panic
# When I shut down and go manic
# So eruptive and destructive like within I am volcanic
# I’ve a head that won’t stop aching
# And a voice that’s tired of breaking
# And I’d snap myself right out
# And tell you what it’s all about if I knew
# I’m pushing you to give up
# And I’m lying about leaking here
# I don’t want to sound ungrateful
# But I just don’t feel like speaking, dear
# And it’s all words and bookmarked lines
# Leaving us all undermined and wrung out
# I have these moments where I panic
# When I shut down and go manic
# So eruptive and destructive like within I am volcanic
# I’ve a head that won’t stop aching
# And a voice that’s tired of breaking
# And I’d snap myself right out
# And tell you what it’s all about if I knew
# Am I starving you out?
# Am I starving you out?
# Am I starving you out?
# Am I starving you out?
# Am I starving you out?
# Am I starving you out? #
Panellist
Lucy MorganPanellist
Vyom SharmaPanellist
Kerryn PhelpsPanellist
Abbey FistrovicPanellist
Andrew LamingPanellist
Ged Kearney
They’re in our emergency departments, aged care homes and guiding our community response... seeing first-hand how quickly this virus can slip beyond our control.
Victoria has hit a new record with 723 cases, with Melbourne health care workers increasingly getting infected themselves.
In NSW, hospital staff are bracing for a second wave, and dealing with recovered patients with significant post-viral syndromes and Queensland is trying to contain its first community transmission cluster in months.
It’s clear we will be living with COVID for quite some time, and these are the people we will be relying on.
What are the lessons learned so far? Are we becoming too complacent? How are the hospitals and the frontline staff holding up? What is different about this second wave?
Discuss the Questions
Here are the questions our panel faced this week. You can discuss their answers on the Q+A Facebook Page.
STATE OF DISASTER
(02:48)
Margaret Healy asked: A state of disaster has now been declared. In hindsight, perhaps Victoria should have taken this hardline to begin with. Does the panel think the community is too divided to follow the rules this time and if so, what can the authorities do about it?
COVID POSITIVE – NOT ISOLATING
(07:12)
Naim Melhem asked: We have seen what happened in Victoria and it is on the increase, yet we have the Army and health official door knocking the people tested positive for COVID-19 and find them not isolating. They were outside home. This should be considered a criminal matter. This is what the other states should learn from and why aren’t they going hard and seriously on this matter?
ST BASILS AGED CARE
(13:20)
Spiros Vasilakis asked: The mandatory requirement for aged care staff to wear PPE was not brought in until the 13th July. But why wouldn’t aged care providers implement the wearing of PPE mandatory for all staff much earlier, of their own initiative, given they are dealing with such a vulnerable group- it wouldn’t have hurt anyone to wear PPE but the consequences of not wearing it have caused a disaster. Why would they not act in a preventative and proactive way?
ST BASILS AGED CARE
(13:20)
Christine Golding asked: Why wasn’t Australia (both federal and state governments) better prepared to manage the tragic consequences of COVID-19 outbreaks at St Basil’s and other aged care facilities, given what we saw happen at Newmarch House in NSW and what we observed in Italy, Spain, UK and USA?
INCOME PROTECTION
(16:55)
David Hart asked: Many of these coronavirus cases have occurred because part time or casual staff could not afford to self-isolate because they were not included in the government's paid pandemic leave. Many of these casual workers also had several jobs requiring them to travel to different employment making "ring fencing" almost impossible. If any casual or part-time employee is told to self-isolate will the federal government immediately offer the same pandemic leave income protection as you have for Victorian casual employees from today?
POLITICAL MESSAGING
(20:58)
Peter Morris asked: As a Doctor in Victoria, I am obviously concerned about the increasing threat of coronavirus. I am appalled by the behaviour of several of the most outspoken Victorian Opposition MPs who are continually undermining the governments COVID advice and safety messages. This has led to complacency among some Victorians. These politicians often use Twitter to spread their political messages, when they should be encouraging people to: stay home, get tested if they have symptoms, to wear a mask and socially distance in order to stop the spread of the virus. My question is to Andrew Laming and the panel: As an elected MP, regardless of your party, shouldn’t the needs of your constituents and their safety be the most important priority ahead of this political rhetoric?
SOCIAL MEDIA MESSAGING
(31:32)
John Partridge asked: This virus is moving faster than Usain Bolt. I have 4 daughters, the youngest being 22. They don’t read newspapers or watch TV news. They get ALL their information from social media. How are we going to get the message through to them that as a group women aged 20 to 29 have the highest number of infections? This is VITALLY important.
CHRISTMAS 2020
(53:16)
Tom Paterson asked: My wife and I live in Adelaide. Our son lives in Sydney and our daughter lives in Melbourne. We celebrate Christmas as a family every other year and, our year is this December. They plan to fly in on Christmas Eve and fly home on Boxing Day. What does the panel think is the chance of us being able to celebrate Christmas as a family this year? Thank you.