Disrupted Recovery

Panellist

%

George Megalogenis

23

Gigi Foster

17

Bill Bowtell

16

Cassandra Goldie

14

Simon Birmingham (15 min CROSS)

12

Katy Gallagher (15 min CROSS)

8

Karen Soo

8

HAMISH MACDONALD

Our recovery has been disrupted. COVID is closing in on two of our key states, while the rest of the nation is opening up and moving on. It’s stirring debate – suppression versus elimination. Is our current approach working, or is it leaving some states behind? You’ve got lots of questions on this, so let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.

Hi there. Welcome to the program. Joining me tonight: epidemiologist Jodie McVernon, whose COVID-19 modelling is helping inform government strategy; CEO of Tourism and Transport Forum Margy Osmond is here in the studio; Greens leader Adam Bandt, whose Melbourne electorate is home to some of the public housing towers that were forced into lockdown; also with us, hip-hop artist L-FRESH The LION, who is from south-western Sydney, where COVID cases are on the rise; and Liberal Senator for Victoria, Sarah Henderson, who lives just outside the lockdown zone. Please make them all feel welcome. And later in the program tonight, we’ll take you to where there are just two active cases of COVID-19 and life is looking rather more normal – we’ll talk to the Northern Territory’s Chief Minister, Michael Gunner.

And remember, you can stream us on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. #QandA is the hashtag. Please share your thoughts. Let us know how you’re getting on. Our first question tonight comes from Dr Stephen Parnis, who you may recognise from this program. He joins us live from Moonee Ponds, in Victoria.

DR STEPHEN PARNIS, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN

Thanks, Hamish. Healthcare workers and many in the population find it hard to swallow political sniping in the time of a global pandemic. In healthcare, we have learned that, when adverse events occur, the answer lies in searching for systemic factors to rectify, not looking for people to blame and sack. Given that errors in managing a pandemic are inevitable, and the likelihood of further outbreaks is almost certain, is it wishful thinking on our part to hope for a greater team effort in dealing with coronavirus?

HAMISH MACDONALD

And, Stephen, before we go to the panel, I think you came off a shift at about 4 o’clock this afternoon, dealt with a number of new COVID cases today. Do you have particular things in mind when you’re talking about the sniping?

DR STEPHEN PARNIS

Well, what I’m thinking, Hamish, is that this is really serious stuff now. It’s life and death. The numbers are climbing and we’re seeing severe cases every day across Melbourne. What I think doctors, nurses and health workers are interested in is having a unified effort – not having attention to who said what and when, but rather having our political leaders act in a relatively unified way and, where criticism is levelled, that it’s constructive, because that will get the best outcomes and save lives, I think. That’s what we’re after.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Adam Bandt?

ADAM BANDT, LEADER, AUSTRALIAN GREENS

Yeah, I think there’s a lot in that question. And certainly, as a federal parliamentarian who lives in Victoria, I’ve been supportive of the approach taken by the Daniel Andrews Labor government. We might have our differences on other things, but...and there’s been some issues, for example, around the public housing lockdowns, where I think they did get it wrong, but overall, I think they’ve done a very good job, and I think part of the reason we’re advanced as a country, and not in a position, say, of the United States, is that we’ve got such strong public health experts and we’ve still got the capacity to get politicians to listen to them.

Where I think there is probably some scope for discussion, though, that I think we should make sure that is had in a constructive way, but isn’t shut down, is around what should the goals of the public health strategy be. So, for example, should we be going for elimination? Should we be going for suppression? Should we be going for other forms of response? So, provided that debate is conducted in a way that is about getting to the answers, then I think we can still have the debate, but I do think this is a moment where... Certainly, my experience in Victoria and in Canberra has been that everyone is willing the people who are in charge to succeed.

HAMISH MACDONALD

It is clear, though, Adam Bandt, isn’t it, that this time around, as parts of Victoria have gone into lockdown again, there has been a lot more ferociousness about the political discussion on this. Do you accept that?

ADAM BANDT

Well, some of the... The general approach, I think, of the Labor government here in Victoria has been a good one, and there’s been... The outbreaks – I mean, no-one would wish them on anyone. And I think everyone here at the moment is willing the government to succeed. But when we’ve had the public housing lockdowns, for example, we saw there, really, I think, a force-led response rather than a care-led response, and police were sent in without also sending in the nurses or the medicines or the food and so on, and we spent several days with people in some...in real distress, in situations that could have been avoided.

So I think, when it comes to the management and execution of it, it is important to be standing up for communities and making sure the government gets it right, especially because, if we don’t go down the elimination road and instead we stick with the current strategy, we’re potentially going to see more and more of these harsh lockdowns again, potentially running for months, if not years. And so there is a lot to be said for thinking about how we do it and making sure we get it right.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sarah Henderson, do you think there should be a bit less political sniping at this point in time?

SARAH HENDERSON, LIBERAL SENATOR FOR VICTORIA

Well, Hamish, good evening. Great to join you on a very important program from regional Victoria at a time when our government is firmly focused on the job at hand. It is a great question, but I have to say, Hamish, led by the Prime Minister and the National Cabinet process, there has been a great deal of harmony between our government and state and territory governments. We have taken the view that we are all in this together. As Josh Frydenberg has said, this is not State of Origin – this is us as a nation, and how we respond. And, yes, there are some very serious situations in Victoria. And, of course, there are some growing cases in New South Wales. And we truly need to understand...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can I just ask you, Senator, are you denying that there’s political sniping going on in Victoria right now?

SARAH HENDERSON

Look, of course there is a little bit of agitation, and I understand that, but from our government and... Prime Minister Scott Morrison has led the way through the National Cabinet process. Our job is to be firmly focused on getting Victorians, New South Welshmen and Australians through this pandemic, opening up the economy, saving lives and livelihoods. There has been very, very little sniping from our government. And that is the way we are going to approach this. And, you know, I have been...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Is that borne out in fact? Peter Dutton was having a go at the Queensland Premier over border closures. There’s been statements made about...from other senior figures within your party about border closures. In Victoria, there is an enormous amount of argy-bargy right now between the Liberal opposition and the Labor government. You’re not denying all of that, are you?

SARAH HENDERSON

Hamish, of course there have been concerns raised, and there have been some legitimate concerns raised, including from Peter Dutton and, of course, we are very concerned about the...what can only be described as the very serious breakdown of the hotel quarantine, which I think has been... You know, I think most people would now regard that as being the primary cause of community transmission in Victoria and the very high number of cases. But the Victorian government has responded with its own inquiry. And the Prime Minister has also responded with a federal inquiry. So, while there are concerns raised – and that is right and proper – the bottom line is, Hamish, we’re not interested in the sniping. We’re interested in working together. We are in this together. Providing the $260 billion of economic support, looking after businesses and workers and health workers and hospitals and the aged care homes – all the things that we have to do to make sure that we can get through this very, very serious situation.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Stephen Parnis, does any of that convince you? You’ve heard from the politicians.

DR STEPHEN PARNIS

Oh, I think there are some constructive arguments from both MPs. Look, what I would say is that one example that I would remind everyone about was when a state opposition MP tried to character assassinate the chief health officer in Victoria. That was absolutely unacceptable, and it set a low benchmark. So my sense is that people need to be disciplined. Those who say the wrong thing should be brought into line by their leadership. I think governments around the country have been acting well and appropriately, not perfectly. If we expect that, we’re not going to get it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Stephen Parnis, thank you very much, and good luck over the coming weeks. Our next question tonight is a video from Michelle Barth, in Blackwood, South Australia.

MICHELLE BARTH, BLACKWOOD, SA

Would it be economically more viable in the long term to go for elimination of COVID-19 for Australia rather than suppression?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Margy Osmond?

MARGY OSMOND, CEO, TOURISM AND TRANSPORT FORUM

Oh. Look, I think this is one of the big questions of the moment. I mean, for us, we’re trying to talk to government about you can no longer manage just for emergency. You’ve got to risk-manage this as well. We can’t, every time there’s a problem, go back to ground zero, or there are going to be major issues for the economy. And I think, also, for the confidence of individuals, because they keep seeing their life being disrupted and the rug being pulled out from underneath their feet. So, from the tourism industry’s perspective, we’ve been 100% behind every government in the country that’s put health first, and that’s the way it should be. But now we also have to find a way of managing through this process, ‘cause clearly it’s going to be here for a long time and we haven’t actually got it on the run we thought we had.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can we be clear, Adam Bandt – what’s the Greens’ position on this? Do you want elimination?

ADAM BANDT

Yes, we should be going for an elimination strategy. Here in Australia, we’ve got an amazing, unique opportunity – as an island country, we could follow the lead of Taiwan and New Zealand, where they’ve managed to, through restrictions that really aren’t that different from the kinds that we’re seeing at the moment, get community transmission down to zero for a sustained period of time. And when you look around Australia, that’s what is basically the case now in a majority of jurisdictions, and it’s not the case in Victoria and New South Wales. And now, in Victoria, we’re embarking on further restrictions. And the question is, what’s the end goal at the end of that? Is the end goal to just lift those restrictions at some point where we know that there’s a potential flare-up again in another few months’ time, or is it to try and get to elimination? And now is the time we should be having that debate. And at the end, I think...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, we’ve got...we’ve got Jodie McVernon here.

ADAM BANDT

..if we had a bit more...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, I mean, she is the expert on this. Is that feasible?

JODIE McVERNON, EPIDEMIOLOGIST, DOHERTY INSTITUTE

So, look, I think, from the telling experience around the country, we started out with a suppression strategy, and the reality is that most of the country is in a state of elimination, but what the experience of New South Wales and Victoria tell us is that that’s an incredibly fragile state. So, we have seen, as other countries around the world have seen, that, you know, from this position of apparent safety, there were people talking about a post-COVID era, you know, we’re relaxing social and economic measures to try to get the country going again. But it is very, very hard for people to sustain a prolonged behaviour change that reduces risk. And around the country we see increased mobility, and a decline in sort of the personal protection measures and other behaviours that we know will reduce the risk of infection, and the opportunity is still there for the infection to spread. And we’re not willing to close our borders entirely, we’re not willing to stop Australians coming back. That risk will still be with us, and we need to work out a way to get community transmission under control, but then to be able to somehow bring the community along with us to take that journey of keeping community transmission and the levels of infection incredibly low. This is led from the front, from the public.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What’s the problem, though, with an explicit approach of elimination?

JODIE McVERNON

Oh, I mean... I feel like I’m back in March, actually. But, you know, the risk of elimination was always to say we get rid of this thing and our lives go back to normal. And around the country, we basically have got rid of this thing, and people have thought their lives can go back to normal. And what this current situation in Victoria and New South Wales tells us is that that’s not a sustainable way of being able to manage this pathogen, and we need to accept there are going to be ongoing changes. We don’t want to be in this position of, you know, having to come back into lockdown – we know the economic and social harms. But how do we keep the public with us for a longer-term goal?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question tonight is from Genevieve Neich in the studio.

GENEVIEVE NEICH

I have unwavering pride in my postcode. Campbelltown, like many other South Western Sydney postcodes, is abundant in empathy, vibrancy and a brilliant sense of community, despite what some media platforms might have you believe. Do you think that the coronavirus hot spotting has the potential to increase prejudice against certain areas? The reductive and unfair discourse of lazy, drug-addled, immigrant-filled areas doesn’t quite seem productive to me. Isn’t it time that we begin supporting and empowering these communities, instead of demonising them?

HAMISH MACDONALD

L-FRESH, these are your communities.

L-FRESH THE LION, HIP-HOP ARTIST

Yeah, most definitely. And just like you, I share, you know, a passion for where I’m from. You know, I think it’s not new, though, you know, for...for Western Sydney to be, you know, portrayed in a negative light, you know. It’s an ongoing experience, and something that, you know, for people from the area, or from those areas, it’s almost like a barrier you kind of have to challenge all the time. Just perceptions, or negative perceptions about the area, you know?

HAMISH MACDONALD

What’s the reporting of a cluster in your part of this major city done to the community? What’s the impact been?

L-FRESH THE LION

I mean, the impact was felt from the very beginning, you know, as soon as COVID hit, just like across the country. And you know, you walk around the local area and you see local businesses really struggling. And, you know, people were talking about potentially having to close up shop. You know, and your favourite food spots, and all that sort of stuff. And it’s an area, you know, that is so rich in culture, is so rich in just the...the experience and the people out there. You know, it’s definitely had an impact.

I mean, I think, right now, and the concern that I have right now, along with, not just the negative kind of perceptions of...you know, in media, talking about the area in a way that was mentioned in the question, but the other concern I have is, you know, what we’ve already seen throughout the COVID period, is the ways in which, you know, police have...with their discretionary powers in enforcing fines and stuff like that, has disproportionately been in places like Western Sydney. You know, initially, during the outbreaks, you know, it wasn’t the case in hot spot areas, you know, where transmission rates were higher, but we were seeing those fines being put on people from Western Sydney for really minor things. So, you know, that’s the concern I have, is the situation where…again, you know, we’ve seen already, in this period, where, you know, policing or overpolicing in certain areas happens, and it’s usually in areas that are, you know...like those of Western Sydney. So, that would be my concern right now.

HAMISH MACDONALD

When something like this happens, and suddenly it’s sort of being described as a hot spot, rightly or wrongly, do you feel like the finger is being pointed at you in an unusual way?

L-FRESH THE LION

(SIGHS) It’s a tough one. I mean, you know, I wonder if it’s a situation where we just... It’s kind of like what happened in Melbourne, right? We just... It’s unfortunate that it’s happened. And the reality is that there’s cases coming from the area, that have popped up in the area. So, we’ve got to deal with that reality, right? You know, on top of messaging of, you know, the... You know, painting, you know, places in Western Sydney, South West Sydney with a negative brush is not useful, and it kind of just adds to the...to what I spoke about earlier. Like, this, it’s not a new...a new, you know, experience for people from the area. You know, negative perceptions about Western Sydney and South West Sydney have been around since I was a kid. You know, I’m in my early 30s now, and it’s been around since I was a kid. So, it’s not new, but it’s definitely not helpful.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jodie McVernon, can you get around this? If you’re dealing with the data, and you’re trying to contact trace people, and there are cases in...in locations with, for example, high-density living, is there any way to get away...get around these sort of social impacts that we’re discussing?

JODIE McVERNON

Look, it’s difficult. From a public health perspective, you obviously have to work where the risk is. I think the difficulty is the overlay that’s then placed on that by media or other commentators. And it’s a matter of working with communities to make them feel supported and encouraged and, in those populations that are at greatest risk, to help explain and reduce that risk, but we can’t always control all of the other messaging that might go along with that from other sources.

L-FRESH THE LION

Can I just add to that, as well? Like, in speaking on the culture of places in...like Western Sydney and South West Sydney, community organisations are really strong. Like, the ways in which, you know, we’re able to communicate to our...you know, to those around us in our local areas is super strong. And you know, we saw that again with what happened in the flats in Melbourne. It was the community organisations that stepped up, and know how to speak to our own communities. And just as what was mentioned in the question, you know, I think it’s super worthwhile us working with communities to have that tailored approach for communities, because without that, you know, we see situations…as mentioned in the first question, the systemic, you know, kind of issues where, you know, things just fall through the cracks.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question tonight is a video from Omar Abdu in Tarneit, Victoria.

OMAR ABDU, TARNEIT, VIC

Hi. I’m a 19-year-old of African background from the western suburbs of Melbourne. Why were there hundreds of police officers surrounding the towers of North Melbourne and Flemington? Was it really necessary to have such a flood of police? Why were there more police than public health officers and cleaners? It made the residents feel more intimidated, rather than safe. Why were other areas not receiving the same attention from police as North Melbourne and Flemington were? Why did it seem like authorities were targeting these areas instead of helping them out? Thank you.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sarah Henderson.

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, Hamish, I have to say I think the police have done an extraordinary job. They have an incredibly difficult job and, of course, the Commonwealth is providing more than 1,000 ADF personnel to support the efforts in a whole lot of different ways. And I can understand the concern, particularly with the public housing towers, but the concern, the public health concern was that this was going to lead to a very, very substantial number of cases. It is very tough.

But I was really impressed by what L-FRESH said, actually. He talked about the power of community, and I certainly saw that with the public housing towers in Flemington and North Melbourne. Despite the fact that there were real issues accessing food and getting the care, and... And there were real difficulties. There’s no doubt about that. There was also an amazing sense of community...

HAMISH MACDONALD

What were the difficulties...what were the difficulties as you saw them?

SARAH HENDERSON

Let me just...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Because, with respect, I think we do need to get an answer to Omar’s question, which is about the imbalance that he saw – more police, more force than there was support. Do you recognise that was a problem?

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, I’m talking about the difficulties that Adam saw firsthand, in terms of some residents not being able to access food quickly, or care that they needed. And, obviously, public health officials and the police, and the Department of Health and Human Services, had to work very, very quickly.

But just let me go back to the point that I was just wanting to finish on, Hamish. And I’ve seen an incredible response in Colac. There’s been the Colac Abattoir that’s had a number of positive cases. And in our region, in the Geelong and Colac region, we now have 28 active cases today. So, we are concerned about what is happening in regional Victoria. But again, we are seeing a great community response.

But police have got to do their job. They have been incredible. And while it may feel that people were being targeted, let’s not forget that there are many thousands of people living in those towers, and they did need a great deal of support, and also vigilance, to make sure that community transmission did not continue any more than it has. I mean, we have a very, very serious situation in Victoria. Let’s not forget that we were effectively at zero community transmission cases at the beginning of June. That has now run out of control, as I mentioned before, not just with the hotel quarantine issue, but also with the issues with contact tracing. But we’ve done it before, Hamish, and we can do it again. And as I say, led by the Prime Minister and the National Cabinet, working shoulder to shoulder with the Victorian government, we will get back there, and we will be able to reduce these cases, hopefully, back to almost zero.

HAMISH MACDONALD

L-FRESH?

L-FRESH THE LION

Yeah, I can totally appreciate, you know, it’s not easy for police and front-line workers at this particular point in time. Definitely felt it was unnecessary for that many police to be sent to the towers. And just following my social media feed, a lot of, you know, artists, musicians were across a lot of this. Melbourne’s hip-hop scene was definitely across a lot of this, and volunteering in this space, as well. And, you know, there were reports coming back about, you know, just how challenging it was to get support to people in the towers from the volunteers and the amazing community support. There was reports of, you know, people having confrontations with police and...and the government-appointed workers over there, and just a complete mismanagement of that situation. And it was really distressing. I mean, what I saw, from the feeds that I was seeing from people who were directly there, it was really distressing to see. And I could only imagine and really empathise with the people in those towers, because, you know, to see that, you know, fresh-air, you know, time was allocated in spaces that were caged... You know, there was cages set up for them to have fresh air, is what I saw on social media. You know...

ADAM BANDT

That...that point... Sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt. That point about...that sense from the question about, “Why were we...why was it presumed that we would do the wrong thing?” was certainly the sense that I got from speaking to a lot of the public housing residents. It’s like, “OK, we...” Pretty much everyone that I spoke to who lives in those North Melbourne and Flemington flats says, “Yeah, we get the rationale. We understand that we’re in a health fight, that this isn’t a political thing, that we’re in a fight to ensure that everyone stays safe. But they came in, they locked the doors, and they locked the doors without having food and medicines on the other side.” And that wonderful community support, and the organisations that stepped up – like, we, myself and Ellen Sandell, the state MP, we were working till 10, 11 o’clock at night ‘cause that food was getting stopped at the doors by government officials, saying, “No, you’re not allowed to get it in.” And there was just, I think, a lack of planning.

There was no pandemic plan for public housing. And there was no sense of using, as have been referred to before, the enormous resources of all of the people who were inside, who wanted to help do the right thing, who had these amazing networks. And it was just this sense of, “Well, we’re not going to allow you to ferry food from the front doors up to people in the flats,” for example, and I think there’s a lot to learn from next time. And again, it comes back to the simple point – don’t have a...a force-led response, have a care-led response. And I think that’s got to guide us in the future.

JODIE McVERNON

Yes, Adam, I think you made an important point there, which was, there was no pandemic plan for this to happen, because none of us envisaged ever needing to have a measure like this in place. And that’s what we’re seeing time and time again with COVID – that the extent of spread, the speed of spread, and rapidity with which responses have to be implemented... We’re having to do things we never, ever imagined doing in a country like Australia. And clearly, there were many aspects of that response that weren’t ideal, but I can assure you that there has been a lot of reflection and learning, there’s a much stronger push to community engagement. All the benefits of engaging those communities has been really recognised, and, you know, one of the...the good things about our federated system is, I sit on the national committees, and all the state and territory chief health officers learn and reflect from each other because they want to be better prepared. They want to know how to do these things they’ve never had to do before, if this should be a problem in their state and territory.

ADAM BANDT

And maybe we could build more public housing coming out of all of this...

SARAH HENDERSON

And... Sorry, Hamish, can I just...?

ADAM BANDT

..so there’s a bit less overcrowding, and that, you know, we clean those areas more commonly, and we don’t treat people who live in public housing like second-class citizens. We’re going to need a plan to get out of the economic slump that we’re in, find a way of getting people into work. And I... Oh, I think, rather than giving out granite benchtop grants, it would be much better to put money, public money, into building more public housing, so that we minimise overcrowding, and minimise the risk of having to do this again in the future.

MARGY OSMOND

But I do think the future of this is all about the confidence of people in their homes and on the streets. And part of that will be a sense that government knows what it’s doing in terms of this kind of planning in future. And I think this is now the pivotal moment for governments at every level. How do they capture this information? How do they turn it into a strategy? How do they engage the community in it, and give the community a sense of confidence so you don’t see this outcome again, regardless of whether it’s a public housing tower, or whether it’s Toorak?

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question. It’s a video...

SARAH HENDERSON

And Hamish, can I just make...? Sorry.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..from Sally McLean in Geelong, Victoria.

SALLY McLEAN, GEELONG, VIC

Why do politicians and ex-politicians think it’s OK to voice their opinions on issues such as the debunked link between the Black Lives Matter rallies and outbreaks of COVID-19 in Victoria? It is political point-scoring and it divides the community, when aren’t we all supposed to be in this together?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Now, I’m going to put this to Sarah Henderson. But before we do that, last week on Twitter, our program said that Sarah Henderson had linked the current spike in infections in Victoria to the Black Lives Matter protest. And we need to clarify that that is not what Sarah said.

On 21 June, Sarah Henderson, you asked why Dan Andrews was blaming, in your words, “law-abiding Victorian families for doing the wrong thing, rather than 10,000 illegal protesters”. I just wonder what you...what you actually meant.

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, Hamish, thank you for that clarification. And, in fact, the head of news for the ABC, Gaven Morris, did issue an apology on behalf of Q+A because a very erroneous post or two was made in relation to what I said, and I was grossly misrepresented. So I was very pleased...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But...but what did you mean?

SARAH HENDERSON

..that that apology... I was... Just let me finish. I was very pleased that, obviously, that apology was made. But what I was highlighting was the double standard. We had had a number of months where Victorians had not been able to go to funerals, where Victorians had closed businesses, schools were closed and, of course, you know, weddings had been cancelled, and yet there was a real double standard when the Victorian government really did nothing insofar as 10,000 people gathering at the Black Lives Matter protest. And I made the point in that tweet, which you didn’t read out, we are all equal under the law. And I think what really stood out to many Victorians is, “Well, hang on a minute – how can you say I can’t gather with 10 of my family members and yet, basically, there is very little action, or no action, in fact, by anyone in the government in relation to 10,000 people gathering, many of whom, of course, were not observing social distancing and hand hygiene and the like?”

And, today, Hamish, the New South Wales Commissioner, Mick Fuller, made a very important point – he said, “There is no way that I would tolerate that in New South Wales.” They are going to come down very, very heavy on any protest, it doesn’t matter what the subject matter is. Because, he said, that if that type of protest was to happen in Sydney, that could set back the state of New South Wales by five or ten years. So, I think what I was concerned about and I think what many Victorians have been concerned about is that Victoria took no action to stop that protest, and it sent out very mixed messages, and that was really regrettable.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And just to be clear, do you accept there is no link between those protests and COVID-19 outbreaks or spikes?

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, Hamish, the... I’m just interested in the facts. I understand that there have been a number of...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Yeah, so I’m asking you if you accept those facts.

SARAH HENDERSON

Yeah... Oh! Hamish, can you please not suggest that I don’t accept the facts? I understand, and the Department of Health and Human Services has advised, that some six people were positive. Now, whether they actually caught the virus at the protest rally, we don’t really know. And I think we will see from the hotel quarantine inquiry many more facts coming out in relation to the genomic sequencing. But what we certainly do know is that that sent out a really bad message. A terrible double standard. Where, as I say, you couldn’t gather with your family members in your home, but, of course, you could go to a protest and meet up with 10,000 other people. That was a very, very big mistake. And I have a been outspoken about that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can I just... I know what you’re saying...

SARAH HENDERSON

You know, we talked about sniping before. But I have been...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just need to draw your attention to what the...

SARAH HENDERSON

Yeah, I have a been outspoken about that because it was a very...because it was the wrong decision.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just need to draw your attention to what the Victorian department says, though. Currently there is no evidence to suggest those acquired cases of the virus were from the protest. They went on to say that currently no known nor suspected...

SARAH HENDERSON

But... Hang on...

HAMISH MACDONALD

..episodes of transmission...

SARAH HENDERSON

Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..occurred at the protest.

SARAH HENDERSON

But, Hamish, I didn’t... You... But do... Even in asking that question, you’re not actually listening to what I said. I said there...we don’t know whether anyone who was found positive actually caught the virus at the rally. We don’t know that information. And I’m not suggesting that that occurred. But what I am saying is...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Then why raise it?

SARAH HENDERSON

..that it sent out... Because it sent out the wrong message. It sent out the message that all people were not equal under the law. And there’s talk about how the police have come down very, very heavily on people for doing all sorts of things, and yet none of those protesters were fined. And as I mentioned, the New South Wales Police Commissioner has said there is no way that that would happen in New South Wales. His view is that every single person who attends a protest should be fined and there should be consequences. And as I say, the point I was making is that all people, all Victorians, are equal under the law. And unfortunately, that message really did not get out there because of the way the Victorian government treated those protesters.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Adam Bandt, I can see you trying to get in.

ADAM BANDT

Well, are you serious, Sarah? The Liberals have been running around in Victoria calling our Premier a dictator because he wouldn’t let people play golf. I mean, this is coming from a party that has been shouting from the rooftops, saying we need to open up the borders and ease restrictions and get out from under the doona. Your government, at the moment, is out there supporting Clive Palmer in the High Court to say that WA should lift its border restrictions, at the same time as we’ve got this crisis happening here in Victoria and New South Wales and we’re trying to stop it from spreading. So, if anyone has some responsibility for trying to shift public debate in a way that’s saying these restrictions need to be eased, it’s the Liberal Party people who are channelling Trump.

And I think, in this country, at the moment, we need Scott Morrison to be more Jacinda Ardern and less Donald Trump. We need less of this push to say everyone needs to get out from under the doona, and we need to have a health-first approach. We’ve heard the health evidence about the Black Lives Matter protest. Can I say, I’m more concerned about the fact that, you know, in New South Wales, at the moment, 300 people can gather without masks in a pub. That seems, to me, on the health...a risk to be posing a potentially greater risk. And I think it’s shades of Peter Dutton and talking about African gangs in Melbourne, it’s trying to use an issue that you disagree with...

SARAH HENDERSON

Hamish, I might need to cut in here, I think.

ADAM BANDT

..to push a barrow that’s really got nothing to do with the health response at all.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, Adam, I think...

MARGY OSMOND

I thought we’d just established that this kind of political point-scoring is what we don’t want to hear.

SARAH HENDERSON

Yeah, look, I might... If I could just respond there, Hamish.

MARGY OSMOND

From Sarah and from Adam. This is what the public have said they’re not interested in.

SARAH HENDERSON

Yeah, exactly.

MARGY OSMOND

You’ve given us the perfect example, both of you, of what we don’t want to hear.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, let’s take our next question. It’s a video from...

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, let me... No, Hamish, I would like to respond to that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Go for it. Make it quick – we’ve got to move on.

SARAH HENDERSON

Yeah, I was critical about the Black Lives Matter protest, but I think the way that Adam has responded is very inflammatory. That is not the focus of our government. We are all about working with state and territory governments to make sure that we can get through this with our health response, our economic response. And as the Prime Minister said today...

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’ve made those points a few times, so I think... You’ve made those points many times.

SARAH HENDERSON

But as the Prime Minister said today, we have an open account and we are here to stand by you and to stand by all Victorians.

HAMISH MACDONALD

The next question is a video from Desmond Campbell in Darwin.

DESMOND CAMPBELL, DARWIN, NT

Here in Australia, we saw the Black Lives Matter protest concentrate on Aboriginal deaths in custody. In the Northern Territory in June 2019, the ABS told us that 83% of the total prison population was made up of Indigenous people. With the elections of the Northern Territory government coming up in August, does the current Gunner government accept that the rates of incarceration of Indigenous people is unacceptable and the current justice system creates pathways to prison for Indigenous people?

HAMISH MACDONALD

On that note, I’ll bring in the Northern Territory’s Chief Minister, Michael Gunner. Good evening to you. Thanks for joining us live from Darwin. How do you respond to that question?

MICHAEL GUNNER, CHIEF MINISTER, NT

Well, it’s not good enough. It’s a national shame. It’s definitely a shame here in the Northern Territory. No-one’s born bad. No-one’s born to do the wrong thing. It’s not defined by religion or race. And the overrepresentation of Aboriginal people in our justice system, in our jails, is not good enough. I was born in the Territory. I grew up in Tennant Creek and Alice. Kids I went to school with – in jail, dead, chronic illness, unemployed. Some have gone on to success, but many haven’t as well. It’s not been good enough.

But I got elected to try and break that cycle. To make a difference. It’s not going to be fixed by next week’s Q+A. It’s going to take a lot of work. I am prepared to do that work, and we’ve got to go back to the things that really are leading to this, and that’s the overcrowding in public housing – you talked about that a bit earlier – the disempowerment that we’ve seen. There are things that we can do to change this, to invest in our kids right at the very beginning, to make sure we make a genuine, long-term, meaningful difference to our incarceration rates. ‘Cause it ain’t good enough.

HAMISH MACDONALD

On that, when the Don Dale royal commission findings were handed down, you stood in parliament in the Territory and said, “We cannot let this report sit on the shelf gathering dust like so many that have come before.” But the Don Dale Centre was... It was recommended it should be closed by that royal commission. Why hasn’t it been?

MICHAEL GUNNER

We’ve gone through quite a few sites to try and make sure we found the right one to build the right building, and we’re doing that now. It took longer than I would like, but we got there and we’re going to get on with that and make sure we do it. But I think the important thing is, we don’t want kids to end up there. What we had, when we inherited this system, was seeing young kids, young offenders, essentially go on to become adult criminals, and the choices can’t be Don Dale alone, or jail alone. You’ve got to have other consequences in place that actually break the cycle.

So, we’ve spent a long time this term making sure police, before it even gets to courts, or Territory families, even earlier in the system, so it doesn’t even end up with a crime being committed, is having a place for these kids to go that genuinely makes a difference. You know, bush camps, getting involved with the traditional elders, making sure we are doing things – send them to a job, send them to training – doing things that genuinely make a difference, and mean that we don’t see that kid commit a crime again. So, there have to be options on the table that aren’t Don Dale. That can’t be the only option. ‘Cause all you’ll do if you do that is create more adult criminals.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, our next question is a video from Emily Anyupa Butcher in Alice Springs.

EMILY ANYUPA BUTCHER, ALICE SPRINGS, NT

My name is Emily Anyupa. I’m a Luritja, Pitjantjatjara, Warlpiri woman from Papunya and Yuendumu, west of Alice Springs. Chief Minister, if you are adamant to be strict about border closure, then why is Uluru open to interstate visitors, including workers from hot spot areas who regularly come to the APY lands via Yulara Airport, close to Mutijulu community, on Anangu lands? Who is at the most risk of this virus?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Michael Gunner?

MICHAEL GUNNER

The Yulara Airport opens again on August 2. We rather it didn’t open. We have got a policy where you can’t come into the Northern Territory from a hot spot. If you do, we’ll essentially put you in a room for 14 days at your own expense to make sure that you are safe, that we don’t see any community transmission here in the Northern Territory. If you arrive at Yulara, that makes it really difficult for us. We’ve got to get you to Alice Springs, essentially, so we rather it didn’t open on August 2, that airport. So for us, we support the traditional owners at Mutijulu. We don’t want to see the airport reopen. That would be a stretch of our resource. We will manage, we will make sure we get it covered if we have to. But I’d rather the airport didn’t open.

But can I absolutely reassure you, doesn’t matter where you enter the Northern Territory, if you come from a hot spot, you will spend 14 days in a quarantine facility, supervised, and we’ll make sure we do everything we can to stop community transmission of coronavirus here in the Northern Territory. At our borders, we don’t have a wave-through policy. We have police stationed at our borders. If you come, you’ll spend five to ten minutes getting questioned by the police. The onus of proof is on you. You need to prove that you haven’t come from a hot spot. Credit card receipt, something you’ve got to show that you don’t come from a hot spot. You sign a stat dec. If you lie to us, that’s three years in jail. So, we’re going to make sure that we do everything we can to keep Territorians safe and make sure coronavirus does not get here.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can I clarify, ‘cause you talk a lot about hard border controls, but your borders are actually not shut, are they?

MICHAEL GUNNER

No, no. What we say is, if you come to our border, with our hard border control in place, if you come from a hot spot like Victoria, Sydney... Today, we added Batemans Bay and we put Canberra on watch. We said, if you come from there and you want to enter the Northern Territory, you have to go spend 14 days in a quarantine facility that we supervise, and it’ll cost you $2,500. That way, we can guarantee the safety of the Territory, and we can allow people from Western Australia or South Australia – where those hot spots are – access to the Northern Territory. There’s no public health reason to say no to WA.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Margy Osmond, what do you make of all of these measures?

MARGY OSMOND

Well, I think the industry has made it very clear from moment one that health has to be every government’s number-one priority. I do think that... And in the case of the Northern Territory, I will say that the Chief Minister and his government have worked very hard to support the tourism industry up there and give them some certainty. I would say to you, though, that this is an issue in terms of that certainty, and I think it’s one that there needs to be a decision made on very quickly.

HAMISH MACDONALD

In terms of what?

MARGY OSMOND

Whether it’s going to be open. Whether Yulara airport’s going to be open or not, and what that’s going to look like, and how it’s going to operate, so that the operators up there, who employ loads and loads of local people and generate a great deal of economic outcome for the region, know exactly what they’re doing.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, I mean, we’ve discussed tonight, you know, the realities of this suppression strategy that Australia has. There are going to be spikes at various times. Can Northern Territory, given all the very particular circumstances there for remote, Indigenous communities, actually open up to the rest of the country?

MARGY OSMOND

Well, look, I think this is a conversation that the industry and the government had been having, and the indication was that, yes, it would be something that the government view very positively. The issue now is giving the industry certainty. Is it going to happen or is it not going to happen? What happens if people go to Alice Springs Airport instead of Yulara? What are the implications of that? And I think it also highlights a problem, from a discussion point of view with industry and government, that the ground is changing so quickly under government’s feet, they’re having to make decisions very quickly. Quite often, industry has almost no notice of what a government has had to make a decision on. And one of the challenges of the future of this process, because we’re all going to have to learn to live with it, is how we try and take some of that uncertainty out of the discussion.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Michael Gunner, you’ve got two active cases in the Northern Territory, as I understand it, currently. Do you call your strategy suppression or elimination? What is it?

MICHAEL GUNNER

Well, it was a suppression strategy that led to an elimination outcome, but I think we have to face the reality – we don’t know if or when there’ll ever be a vaccine. I think we’re going to be living with this situation for a year, two years, three years – a very, very long time. So, we have to find a set of, essentially, health policies that save lives that we can live with for a very long time. And in doing that, we’ve got to make sure we save jobs all the way through that. I get it, but it’s got to be health-driven, we’ve got to make sure that everyone out there knows that you’re doing this to save lives first. That’s what gets the public confidence that then leads you to be able to do the things that you need to do to save jobs too. But essentially, everyone out there, every Territorian, I’m going to do everything I can to save your life first. That’s my absolute priority. And then, as a result of that, as a result of those decisions about saving your life, I then have to work to save your jobs. I get it, but your life comes first to me.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You talked about three or four years – is that how long you envisage hard border controls in place?

MICHAEL GUNNER

We’re planning for this indefinitely now. I think we’re going to be in this phase for a very long time. How long we might need hard borders? Let me just say this – I’ll do whatever it takes. If the police have to stay at the borders, they’ll stay at the borders. We’ve got our hot spot policy in place now to make sure we can be nimble and make those decisions we need to make to keep Territorians safe, but I can’t see a quick end to this.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Are you going to talk about sort of formalised processes at borders, then? I mean, you talked about having to show credit card details to show where you’d come from. Do you want something more specific, more formal, if this is, as you say, indefinite?

MICHAEL GUNNER

Well, we’ve got the best process we can have at the moment right now, in terms of the border arrival form and how you fill out the information you give. The onus of proof is on the person coming through. We might move to a process later down the track, as a National Cabinet, as a government, that makes it easier for that movement across state borders. I think it’s going to be a reality that, while we’ve got this threat here and while we’re doing everything we can to keep everyone in this country safe, we have to work out how we can safely manage across borders.

HAMISH MACDONALD

L-FRESH, this suddenly sounds a lot less like one united country, doesn’t it?

L-FRESH THE LION

Yeah, it’s a challenge, isn’t it? I mean, I don’t envy being in the position of decision-makers at this particular point in time. You know, it’s really tough having to balance, you know, the expert advice, as well as, you know...you know, the economic factors. And, you know, I definitely take what the Chief Minister’s saying about putting health first, and I think that’s really important. You know, without people, there’s no economy, right? So, you’ve got to put the people first, and I can appreciate that approach.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jodie McVernon, is this the right approach?

JODIE McVERNON

Look, I think we’ve recognised the need to try to balance, you know, the public health principles and the protection of the public with the economic implications, and we completely appreciate the absence of certainty. That is a feature of our lives, living with COVID – that we just simply can’t predict when or where it might come up again. And so this need for responsive, reactive measures is going to be with us for a while. How we can best navigate that, how we can find the things that can underpin our certainties – that’s really where we need to work creatively with communities and with, you know, sustained risk mitigation measures to try to minimise the likelihood that these kinds of outbreaks take off and lead to these disruptions. Clearly, we want to be able to have a much more stable and sustainable state. But that is challenging, and looking round the world – you know, Hong Kong, Singapore, all these countries...

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’re not surprised, then, to hear the Northern Territory Chief Minister say, “Look, this is...this is indefinite. We’re talking about borders in place for the time being”?

JODIE McVERNON

Look, we don’t have a clear exit strategy and there isn’t a clear end in sight. We have a pandemic raging round the world. We see countries that haven’t gone for anything like the degree of suppression that we have, and they’re reopening their economies due to necessity, and we see the death tolls that accompany that. So, clearly, that’s not where we want to be. It would be wonderful to have vaccines in sight, and enormous amounts of money are going into parallel development of, you know, Phase II trials and manufacturing capacity with billions of dollars of investment. This is an unprecedented effort to get these sorts of interventions out. But there are no guarantees, and in the meantime, these are the measures that we have, and we have to work out how to live with them.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question is from Rudi Kolkman.

RUDI KOLKMAN

Thanks, Hamish. There’s an axiom that prevention is better than cure. Looking at Victoria and the more recent outbreaks in Sydney and beyond, why aren’t governments across Australia mandating the use of face masks in public spaces, particularly where social distancing isn’t practical – shopping centres and on public transport?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Adam Bandt?

ADAM BANDT

Yeah. Well, we’re seeing that here in Victoria, and we support those steps that have been taken. And the health advice, as I understand it, was that the jury was out for a while about the utility of them, and it’s increasingly clear that they do make a difference. And so, if governments want to take steps towards saying people should wear health masks...wear masks, then we support it. And I guess it comes back to that question, and links into the earlier question as well, about what’s the goal now for Victoria and New South Wales? And I think the goal should be to take the steps that we need to, which is probably just going to be a combination of things that have been taken around the country already, including things like masks, for Victoria and New South Wales to try and get to where the Northern Territory and Western Australia and Tasmania and South Australia and, to an extent, Queensland are. And if we get to that point, including by having to wear masks, then we’re going to see the ability to have some more discussions about border...greater interstate travel, perhaps less hard borders in between the states. But to do that, I think we need to set a new goal in Victoria and New South Wales of getting towards elimination.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Michael Gunner, do you have a view on masks?

MICHAEL GUNNER

We don’t need them here. I understand why Dan’s done it down in Victoria, but here, the advice that we’ve received consistently is the 1.5 metres is enough. The hand hygiene – you know, don’t shake hands. If you’re sick, stay home. We haven’t got community transmission here. I think I’d struggle to convince Territorians to wear masks at the moment. It’s not needed.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jodie, you were trying to get in there.

JODIE McVERNON

Yeah, look, I completely agree, and, you know, WHO guidance came out in early June with, you know, recommendations around masks in clinical settings and other places, and with guidance for the world recommending that, in places where there was community transmission and people could not physically distance, any kind of mask might offer some additional protection. And, you know, a homemade mask might reduce your risk by maybe 10%, 20%. But in that environment, anything that you can do to add is worth adding. So, we’ve consistently said, in areas where there’s no community transmission, mask wearing is unnecessary.

The concern is that people may actually view it as a panacea. You know, everybody wants the magic bullet. “Oh, now it’s going to be a mask and then we can have life as normal.” That’s not the answer either. The mask is the bottom of the hierarchy of protections. It’s been introduced in Victoria because we have all the public health measures. We have lockdowns. We have everything else. It’s the last thing we could add.

And I would say, practically, you know, the thing of having to stop and put a mask on before you leave the house is a reminder that it’s not necessarily safe out there and the threat is not eliminated, in the same way that having your temperature checked at school or at the workplace isn’t going to turn up every case of COVID, but it’s that extra check to say, “Actually, am I symptomatic, and should I be here?” So, I think... I endorse the way it’s being used now, but we certainly shouldn’t be overly reassured by masks, and should make sure we’re wearing them safely and not increasing the risk of infection by doing so.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, we’re going to say goodbye to Michael Gunner at this point. We really appreciate you joining us tonight from Darwin, and we hope that your absence of community transmission remains exactly what it is.

MICHAEL GUNNER

Thank you very much.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question tonight is from Alexander Lau.

ALEXANDER LAU

Our government has yet to manage to work out how to hold parliament remotely, and instead will cancel parliament for at least another fortnight. As a teacher, I, and tens of thousands of teachers like myself, was expected to implement online learning, often within days. Often, it involved dealing with students who did not have adequate access to devices or the internet. This pandemic has been upon us for months, yet our federal government doesn’t seem to be capable of figuring out how to effectively govern during 2020. Is this how we want our federal government to nationally coordinate our response to COVID-19?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Margy Osmond, you deal with all sorts of businesses that have made all sorts of changes to their operating model this year. What’s your view on parliament?

MARGY OSMOND

(LAUGHS) Well, I can recommend a whole range of great conferencing facilities that can solve this problem for them. And, look, they’d be happy for the business right now, to be perfectly frank. And I think that probably one of the most impressive things out of the whole COVID exercise has been the innovation and the new technologies that have been developed to deal with this problem, and the fact that everybody’s terribly comfy hopping on their computer now and having a conversation like this. So, I think it’s... It’s an interesting choice by the government. I think they probably would have sent a very good message to the wider public that, yeah, you can operate remotely. We can get on with managing the country the way we need to, in terms of the parliamentary process, by trying a little technology on for size. But this is now the challenge. Let’s hope the next sitting has this digital option.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sarah Henderson, the UK’s managed it, Canada’s managed it, Albania, Angola, Belgium, Georgia, Mongolia, Spain. Why can’t we have parliament running in some way virtually?

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, Hamish, let me just say that the government has been working night and day. So, the current challenges that we do have don’t stop the government working like we never have before. This has been an incredible effort led by Scott Morrison, Greg Hunt, Josh Frydenberg and the entire team. But we have actually passed a resolution which would allow online connection and the parliament to sit remotely, but we do need consent across the board. But the bottom line is, it’s quite complex, Hamish. And we received very strong advice from the Chief Medical Officer, Professor Kelly, that the risk of everyone coming together to Canberra would be too high, particularly with the extent of community transmission in Victoria and now the increasing transmission in New South Wales.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But this is... It’s not a question of...

SARAH HENDERSON

So we’ve taken that advice, and that’s how we’ve always operated. We’ve always operated taking the best medical advice.

HAMISH MACDONALD

With respect, Senator, Alexander’s question is not about why you’re not travelling there. It’s about why you haven’t been able to do what everyone else has done, and figure out a way to do it remotely. I’m not really clear from your answer what the reason is.

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, as I say, there has been a resolution passed by both houses of parliament that would allow for the parliament to meet in other ways, but it is very complex and the decision has been made... In the time available, the decision has been made that it is best to suspend or cancel these two weeks of parliament, and then to resume sitting on August 24. I mean, we have managed in the last few sittings really well. We have, of course, all the social distancing and all of the protocols that were in place in parliament so that we could sit and obviously make very quick decisions and pass legislation. But given the time frame and given the complexity of parliament meeting online, it was decided that it was just too complex within the time available, and hopefully the community transmission in Victoria will be more under control and we will be able to meet in person on August 24.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You said “complex” three times. Could I ask you to be a little more specific?

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, I’m just simply conveying to you that it is very, very complex. We don’t currently have that capacity. We do need the consent of the opposition to put in place other arrangements. I think…without reflecting on Labor, I don’t think they were very keen about this, and the decision was made, with consultation, that we would meet again on August 24.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alexander, what do you make of that response – “It’s very complex”?

ALEXANDER LAU

As I said in my question, this pandemic has been upon us for months. You know, when we’ve...we went to online learning in March as teachers and we’ve been doing it since March with, you know, New South Wales going back...Victoria going back to online. And for all the complexities that you talk about, legislation needs to be passed in order to pass through the packages that you say you’re working night and day on. When you went to pass JobSeeker or JobKeeper, they took in excess of a month, six weeks before payments flew...started flowing. When you talk about HomeBuilder, the only state that has allowed HomeBuilder to be allowed to be signed up on is Tasmania. No other state, and that’s still sitting around. So, this is not a timing that is so complex because we’ve had months to go on. These are things that are happening that we know happens very quickly in Australia in 2020 that can’t sit around waiting for you to recall parliament in one month’s time. You have the means to do it, you have the technology to do it, so why don’t you do it?

ADAM BANDT

Hamish, Alexander is dead right.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Well...

ADAM BANDT

Democracy should not be a victim of this pandemic. Like, everyone else in the country has been asked to work out ways around the appropriate health restrictions, and parliament should be able to as well. It’s very disappointing that the government has chosen to cancel parliament with the opposition’s support. We’ve got a number of crucial issues, and what we’ve...what we know is that every time parliament has sat, we’ve managed to include more people in some of the government’s support measures to make sure that fewer people are left behind. And we’re facing a cliff in a very short period of time, where JobKeeper and JobSeeker are due to run out, or be cut, and we’ve got to work out how to protect people as...as we head into September.

And the second point is that...it comes back to this elimination and suppression. The Prime Minister has been telling us for a while to expect repeated outbreaks across the country, but then he’s also said, because there is an outbreak in Victoria, we can’t have parliament sit. Now, if you take that logic through, on the Prime Minister’s approach, we may have outbreaks across the country for months or years to come, and we can’t cancel parliament every time there is an outbreak somewhere in the country. We have to develop a workaround, and I think it is wrong that the government, after many, many months has not developed a feasible alternative way of parliament meeting to discuss the business of dealing with this pandemic.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I should point out, we looked up to see how things were going in the UK parliament remotely, and the vision that we were able to track down showed this session in parliament...

MARGY OSMOND

A cat tail!

JODIE McVERNON

Yep.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, it hasn’t all gone according to plan!

MARGY OSMOND

I think that might be an improvement! That’s good!

ADAM BANDT

That’s 2020, isn’t it?!

MARGY OSMOND

I like the cat!

ADAM BANDT

I mean, everyone...everyone’s had kids running in...

SARAH HENDERSON

Hamish...

ADAM BANDT

..and I think the phrase “You’re on mute” has probably become the most uttered phrase in the English language! And there’s no reason politicians should be exempt. We should be operating on the same rules, too.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright, I’ll put you all on mute for a moment.

SARAH HENDERSON

Well, Hamish, just to be...

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’ve had a fair go on this question, Sarah Henderson...

SARAH HENDERSON

Just to cut in for one moment...

HAMISH MACDONALD

..so we’re going to take one more question.

SARAH HENDERSON

Alright.

HAMISH MACDONALD

It’s from Gurvansh Bhatia.

GURVANSH BHATIA

As a Sikh man, I’ve been incredibly proud of how my community responded to the COVID-19 crisis, both here and overseas, providing meals to the people who need it and helping wherever they can. With the government focusing on the economic recovery, what do you think the future holds for us...for our society culturally? Is live music dead? Is going out and meeting friends a thing of the past?

HAMISH MACDONALD

L-FRESH?

L-FRESH THE LION

Yeah, like, man, the industry has taken a massive hit in terms of the live music industry especially, and it’s probably one of the sectors that’s going to take a longer time to recover post-COVID, if we get to a stage of post-COVID. You know, it’s put so many people out of work, so many events.

You know, even...even if we get to a state where restrictions are eased back, you know, a 500-capacity venue may only be allowed, say, 150 people or whatever. It doesn’t become financially feasible for them to...to...to run that event, because they’ve still got to, you know, have the same amount of staff and whatnot, and run the facilities in the same way as if it was 500 people. So, you know, it’s a challenging time. There are people innovating in this space, like the Delivered Live initiative and many other live events doing live streaming.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Parliament can’t sit, but you’ve managed to launch an album during all this.

L-FRESH THE LION

Yeah, I released an album on Friday. I mean, and just touching on the teachers, I mean, talk about complex – you’re talking about different states’, you know, educational systems and teaching students remotely... My brother is a teacher as well, so it’s not... I mean, if there’s anything complex, that’s really complex. If they can do it, I can’t see why parliament can’t.

But, you know, just back to the music industry, it’s going to take a long time to...to recover. And, you know, the arts industry is a...is a...you know, a massive contributor to the economy, and, you know, the government has made certain announcements, but it feels like it’s...it’s going to need more for the arts industry to come back. And, you know, so many people are kind of falling through the cracks. So, hopefully we get to a point where, you know, things can be to some semblance of normal, but I think inevitably it’ll be the new normal.

MARGY OSMOND

And I think one of the really big problems with this too is that the performing arts are critical not just because of what they contribute to the economy, it’s because of the innovation they stimulate...

L-FRESH THE LION

For sure.

MARGY OSMOND

..in the business community itself. And in addition to that, from the tourism industry’s perspective, so often the reason that people return to different cities or destinations is ‘cause there’s a great show on. And I think if there’s anything good, if there’s a legacy out of COVID, it’s the attention that’s actually been focused on the performing arts industry and the really critical role that it has. So, from a tourism industry’s perspective, we’re really keen to see additional support go into the performing arts sector.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Right.

ADAM BANDT

And we’re all relying on it to get through the lockdown.

MARGY OSMOND

You bet!

ADAM BANDT

Everyone is watching...watching and listening and bingeing, and it’s times... It’s arts that is getting many of us through the lockdown, and I think it’s incumbent on us as politicians to do much more to support the arts sector.

HAMISH MACDONALD

On that note, L-FRESH, you’re going to perform for us in a moment. This is all about connecting with your own roots, essentially. Just in a snapshot, what is this all about?

L-FRESH THE LION

Yeah, this song is called Mother Tongue. The whole album is really a journey that...and a series of messages I wish I could pass on to my younger self, my 13-, 14-year-old self in South West Sydney. And one of those is represented in this song, which is, you know, I wish I’d kept strong on my language.

Punjabi was the first language I spoke as a kid, and...and through the pressures, you know, society around me, and conditioning, and, you know, by-product of, you know, assimilation kind of rhetoric, I bought into that conditioning and let my language go. I’m now re-learning it. And one of the greatest regrets I have is not being able to communicate freely with my grandmother before she passed away, in language, you know? So, you know, it’s a song that kind of touches on that sentiment.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright, well, it’s great to hear from you again. That is your cue to go and get set up. Thanks to the rest of our panel tonight: Jodie McVernon in Melbourne, Margy Osmond here in the studio, Adam Bandt, and also to Senator Sarah Henderson. Thank you very much, all of you.

SARAH HENDERSON

Thank you, Hamish.

MARGY OSMOND

Thank you.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And thanks to those of you here in the studio, and to those of you at home who have asked questions tonight, and also to those of you streaming us on iview. Next week, we’ll look at the government’s economic plans and what’s happening with JobKeeper and JobSeeker. There will be some very big news between now and then, so we’ll be discussing all of that.