Budget Special

HAMISH MACDONALD

The biggest deficit on record, the biggest debts for a generation – this surely is not a budget this government ever expected to hand down, but tomorrow it will. Debt is expected to exceed $1 trillion, our deficit above $200 billion. We’re about to see the biggest spending package in our history. So, one way or another, this will impact you. It’s designed to get Australians working and spending again. But will it work? Will you win or will you lose out? This is your 2020 budget special, and you’ve got loads of questions, so let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.

Hey there. Welcome to the program. Joining me tonight: senior economist at Deloitte Access Economics, Nicki Hutley; in Canberra, Assistant Minister for Financial Services, Jane Hume, who’s responsible for superannuation; business leader and founder of RedBalloon Naomi Simson is here; also in Canberra, the Shadow Treasurer, Jim Chalmers; and Jane Halton is a former director of the World Health Organization, she was also secretary to both the Finance and Health Departments here at home, and she’s currently leading the global race to find and distribute the COVID vaccine. Please make all of them feel welcome.

And later tonight, a very special musical tribute from Mahalia Barnes and friends – they’re standing by – in honour of a great Australian who died last week. They will be strong, they’ll be invincible, and I promise you they are worth waiting around for.

And remember, as always, you can join the conversation on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram as well. If you’re getting involved on social media, we ask that you do so respectfully. Our first question tonight comes from Rachael Koch, and it’s on a topic, before we get to the budget, that’s captivating the world right now.

RACHAEL KOCH

Hi. My question for the panel is, what do you think the impact will be on Trump’s campaign if he is unable to attend scheduled rallies and debates? Would this help or hurt his cause?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Halton.

JANE HALTON, COVID-19 CO-ORDINATION COMMISSION ADVISORY COMMITTEE

Well, I think the thing we know about Donald Trump is he knows how to use every single means of communication – tweet, do a drive-by today for all his supporters, waving to the crowd. So, I mean, I think unless he’s really, really unwell it won’t make an enormous difference, to be honest. And it certainly looks like he’s on the mend. So I think he will try and turn this to his advantage.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What did you make of the drive-by today?

JANE HALTON

I was actually really concerned by it. I was particularly concerned for the social security...the Secret Service guys who were in the front. I know they were wearing masks, but they were very close together. And we know he’s COVID-positive. So I hope, for their sake, that they’re now isolating for the next 14 days, but I was worried for their health.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Naomi Simson, do you think it’s responsible for a leader to do something like that when they’re COVID-positive?

NAOMI SIMSON, FOUNDER, REDBALLOON

Well, I know that we’re having to work from home and learning completely different ways to work. And I think he needs to too, quite frankly. You know... And, as you say, there’s so many different social medias and other mediums to get... In fact, I think it would be refreshing if there was a different approach to campaigning in the US, especially in these last few weeks. You know, in Australia we have the media silence, you know, 24 hours before. Maybe media silence seven days before...

HAMISH MACDONALD

We’re talking about America!

NAOMI SIMSON

Yes!

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nicki Hutley?

NICKI HUTLEY ECONOMIST, DELOITTE ACCESS ECONOMICS

Oh, you’re talking about a man also with an ego the size of a planet, basically – the Zaphod Beeblebrox of our day. He’s... You know, there is no stopping him, and he will do whatever he wants because everything is about him. It’s completely irresponsible, what he did. I don’t think it’ll stop him in his tracks at all. And I wouldn’t write him off, no matter what the polls are saying.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume, you’ve seen the way leaders in this country at every level have played this pretty responsibly by and large. What did you make of seeing the United States President do that?

JANE HUME, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND SUPERANNUATION

Well, I think, so they should play it responsibly. And, you know, I echo the Prime Minister’s sentiments in wishing President Trump and the First Lady a speedy recovery. I think it probably will set the campaign back a little bit, but he is unstoppable.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jim Chalmers, a speedy recovery, but should it not be in a vehicle, just maybe a speedy recovery in a hospital bed?

JIM CHALMERS, SHADOW TREASURER

Oh, look, we want for President Trump and Mrs Trump the same speedy recovery we want for the other 7 million or so Americans who’ve contracted the virus. I thought that the presidential motorcade was a bit disturbing, and it was a bit disappointing. I think leaders should set a better example than that. Obviously, the President’s SUV is bulletproof, but it’s not virus-proof. And I have the same view that Jane has – Jane Halton has – which is that I hope that the others in the car are being provided the appropriate level of care.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Let’s take our next question tonight. It’s from Robert Millgate in the studio.

ROBERT MILLGATE

My question is to Minister Jane Hume. Insecurity is one of the worst things anyone can suffer, especially the insecurity of what a government may do. Why won’t the Morrison government publicly...guarantee publicly that Australia’s most disadvantaged, especially people on the Disability Support Pension or JobSeeker, won’t be scapegoats as a result of COVID-19? After all, it wasn’t them who created it or introduced it to society.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume.

JANE HUME

Robert, thank you very much for your question. And I can assure you that the Morrison government is committed to looking after all Australians from...and from all backgrounds. I think that what we’ve seen throughout this crisis is an unprecedented level of government support, whether it be for those who are employed or employers, through the JobKeeper program or through the JobSeeker program, the doubling of support in JobSeeker. Now, that program has been extended beyond the six months that it was originally set out to...to apply. It’s been extended to the end of December. And I think that that should give some comfort to a number of people that are still looking for work. But it’s important to find the right balances between incentivising people to get back out to work and go and look for work as well as providing that important social safety net that’s underpinned by a sense of decency and fairness.

NICKI HUTLEY

Yeah, Jane, I don’t think anyone would think that $40 a day is at all decent. And you know that we’ve recently done some modelling on behalf of ACOSS that shows that removing the supplement too early, as is currently planned by the government, is actually going to create, you know, $145,000...145,000 job losses, both this year – financial year – and next, massively detract from economic growth. So, we also know that people on Newstart, their standard of living has gone backwards, relative to everybody else, including pensioners, by 40% over the last 25 years. 40%. We are absolutely marginalising these people, who not only are greatly disadvantaged but, if we give them more permanently, they actually stimulate the economy. So it’s a win for dignity and it’s a win for the economy. It’s... And creating uncertainty by not extending it is actually making it harder for those people to make decisions.

JIM CHALMERS

I think they’re really good...

JANE HUME

Well, Nicki, I think that the Prime Minister has already said that that will be considered later in the... And Minister Ruston has said that. And I think that your report...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume, just on that, can you just explain why it’s not in the budget? Obviously, there is this level of insecurity for people that might be wanting some clarity on that. Could you share with us why it’s not part of the budget?

JANE HUME

Well, the extended amount, of course, is...is...is in the budget. What the permanent amount will be, you know, the change in the structure of...of...of JobSeeker will be will be announced later in the year. And that will, you know, take into account the economic circumstances that we find ourselves in in the time. I think you’ve seen that...in the past eight or nine months that this government has an ability to act swiftly and in response to the circumstances that it finds themselves in, and that’s an appropriate response to do so.

I am concerned, though, at looking at JobSeeker, just in an individual silo. And particularly in the context of the budget, of course, when you’re trying to generate aggregate demand, it’s not just about one single measure, but it’s how those measures interact. And that’s why the budget will contain not just information about JobSeeker, and the extension of JobSeeker, but also JobKeeper, infrastructure investments, support for businesses, ‘cause it’s about creating an aggregate demand rather than just, you know, the effectiveness of one single measure. And, in fact, the report that you did only really concentrated on that one single measure.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, Jane Halton, at this point we don’t know what either major parties...

JANE HALTON

No.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..are committed to longer-term in terms of this social safety net. Do you see any excuse as to why we can’t know, from both of these major parties, what they want to do?

JANE HALTON

So, Robert? Robert, $40 a day is not enough to live on.

ROBERT MILLGATE

Absolutely not.

JANE HALTON

It’s not enough to live on. We’ve known that. I’ve been saying this now for the last couple of years. It is just time we actually got with the program and actually dealt with it, because we cannot ask people in this day and age to live on $40 a day. And I understand the need to be fiscally responsible, but we’re looking here to give people confidence as we come out of what’s been a really difficult time for people. And I...so I really feel for people who are really worried about December, because they fear going back to $40 a day.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What should the rate be, do you think? I mean, you were head of the Department of Finance. What do you think it should be?

JANE HALTON

Well, it’s certainly not $40 a day. And it probably is something a bit lower than we’re seeing now, in terms of the JobSeeker amount. I mean, I think if you look at the issues around poverty and where the numbers are, we’ve had to do what we’ve had to do, and I really support what the government has done. But it’s probably... As the Assistant Minister has said, it’s somewhere that still provides incentive, but enables people to live with dignity, look after themselves and look after their kids.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Naomi, can you put a figure on dignity?

NAOMI SIMSON

Well, I think there’s two words that I want to pick on. One was ‘confidence’, and the other thing is the ability to plan, Robert. So, it’s very hard for your particular circumstances, our community circumstance, but also our small businesses to be able to plan. Many of our small businesses who have worked very hard for a very long period of time now find themselves out of work, obviously through no fault of their own. But with the structures going on between the different states having different sets of rules, whether you’re a business that’s serving national customers, international customers, local customers or within a state, they too cannot plan with that ever-changing landscape of different regulations, different levels of governance. So, on a very...on a personal level, on a family level, for people who are living on disabilities, but then there’s also those who have for a very long period of time worked very, very hard for this country, to provide employment, and they too can’t plan. And, you know, we’d like to see that we can kick-start this economy by providing jobs, as well as support and dignity, I think is a very, very important word.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jim Chalmers, I know you’ve been trying to get in. What will Labor commit to in terms of the long-term rate for Newstart, or whatever it’s going to be called in the future?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, we need to see, Hamish, what we inherit from the government, as Jane Hume said. There’s no clarity yet until towards the end of the year on what the new rate of JobSeeker will be. We agree with all the other panellists that it needs to be higher than $40 a day. I thought Nicki’s contribution, in particular, was absolutely bang-on. This is about dignity for people, it’s about being able...people being able to support themselves while they look for work, but it’s also good for the economy, which has been starved of spending power, not just during COVID-19, but before that as well. So Jane Hume talked about...

HAMISH MACDONALD

With respect, though, Jim Chalmers, I think the government is now acknowledging it will be more than what it does. So there’s no argument there. And I’m just wondering how long it’s going to take for Labor to show its hand and tell us what it thinks the amount should be.

JIM CHALMERS

Well, the point that I’m making, Hamish, is the government has the opportunity in the budget this time tomorrow to tell us what kind of rate Labor would inherit if it came to government and also tell us the conditions of the budget. We still don’t know what the final budget position is. And so, those are important things for us to factor in. The point that I’m making – I’m trying to agree with Jane Hume here in saying it does matter how much demand is in the economy. And one of the consequences of pulling out JobSeeker, cutting JobSeeker from the last weekend of last month, and also cutting JobKeeper, is that hundreds of millions of dollars fewer per fortnight are circulating in our economy. And our economy’s not strong enough to deal with that yet. So we’ve got to make sure that, as the government cuts this support, it doesn’t actually cruel the recovery before it even gets going.

But, to finish on Robert’s question, Robert was actually asking about the Disability Support Pension and other types of support, not just JobSeeker. And I think it’s important to recognise, Robert, if you’re anything like me, it probably drives you crazy, as it drives me crazy when I hear people say that this virus doesn’t discriminate. Sure, as we’ve seen with President Trump, anyone can catch COVID-19, but it does discriminate. The effects of this virus hurt the people who were already most vulnerable and the people who were already most insecure in our society, and the budget tomorrow night needs to recognise that too.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, let’s take our next question. It’s from Daniel Barnett in the studio.

DANIEL BARNETT

Hi, guys. If the government’s proposed stage 2 tax cuts are passed in full, someone on $200,000 a year would get a 4.5% tax cut, but people on $45,000 a year will receive a cut of just 0.5%. It’s estimated that these cuts will cost upwards of $20 billion in the first two years. Does the panel think that tax cuts for the rich is really the best way of stimulating the economy at a time when 1 in 10 people are out of work and JobSeeker is being cut?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Naomi Simson, tax cuts.

NAOMI SIMSON

Yeah. The thing that I see is that what business needs now is customers. How are we going to get customers so that they can spend? And it’s actually very cyclical. So we hear, “We need jobs.” So, first of all, we do need to create jobs. The only way to create jobs is to have confidence in the economy. And the thing is that when we think about tax cuts, we have to give businesses confidence that they can invest in the future. And then it becomes cyclical.

So, one tax element like that in isolation without looking at all of the tax structures... So I think about payroll tax. So, at a certain point in a small business’s life, it is a disincentive to grow. All of a sudden, you get so big...like, I’m not talking that big, but the governance and the requirements, and you can...is quite material. So, payroll tax was invented in 1941 for child endowment, to support people who needed...you know, their husbands had gone off to war and they needed to raise their children. In 19... And then it was nationalised and sent to the feds and sent back to the states in 1971. And I think, if we want to stimulate the economy, we’ve really got to look at how we have an overall tax restructure.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think it’s easy to justify that, though, when you are cutting things out – when you are reducing JobKeeper, reducing JobSeeker? There is the insecurity that we heard about then. Is it still justifiable to say to someone on $100,000 or $150,000 or $200,000 a year that you’re going to get a tax break?

NAOMI SIMSON

Well, for a start, we do know that there is job growth in certain areas, and there is massive job losses in other areas. So, there are... And we need to reskill our people. So what I would like to see is that we’re investing in an apprenticeship program that is beyond what they called for yesterday, which is about 100,000 apprenticeships. I would like to see that they move it beyond the trades and into technical skills.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, Nicki Hutley, do the tax cuts make sense?

NICKI HUTLEY

Look, I personally am not in favour of them, and for the reasons that you’ve outlined. I mean, you know, the old saying – “lies, damn lies, and statistics.” You can manipulate the way you present these tax cuts to say that they’re fair, and that even under stage 3 that the top 10% will still be paying a certain percentage of the tax base. But they’re actually earning more of... So it’s how much you’re paying proportionate to how much you’re earning that I want to look at. Stage 2 – look, I wouldn’t die in a ditch over it, but it wouldn’t be my first thing. And I certainly wouldn’t have it at the expense of everything else. Stage 3 – you know, if you the flatten the tax rate, by definition it is less fair, it’s less progressive.

JANE HALTON

But this isn’t... But this...

NICKI HUTLEY

So, you know, is that who we want to be? And particularly in a time when we’re worried about revenue, we’re getting...raising debt, we’ve heard we’ve got massive deficits.

JANE HALTON

But this isn’t about stage 3, let’s be clear. And there’s a whole lot of a conversation we could have about stage 3, which...

HAMISH MACDONALD

There’s some reports tonight saying that stage 3 won’t be included...

NICKI HUTLEY

Yeah.

JANE HALTON

Yeah. So... So... And for those who weren’t across what Stage 3 was, it takes out a whole layer. But, to your question, we know people on lower incomes, if you put money in their pocket, they’ll spend it. We know that if you put money in the pocket of people on higher incomes, they’re more inclined to save it. So, if we’re on about stimulating the economy, you target people on lower incomes. That’s just the facts of the matter. There is, however, a problem we have in Australia, which is this issue of bracket creep. And so, what those tax cuts are trying to do, I think, is balance those two things. The question is, where are your priorities? And it goes to Nicki’s point. If your priority is about spending, you target on lower-income people and not necessarily on higher incomes.

NICKI HUTLEY

Yeah, we know that people will save. We know that the savings rate went up to 20% in the June quarter. It’s not... If you’re simulating the economy, and I guess that’s the point, is, what’s your objective in all of this?

JANE HALTON

What’s your objective?

NICKI HUTLEY

Is it something you should be bringing forward if you’re worried about stimulating the economy? No. Give it to people who spend it. And we have absolutely seen that in spades. We’ve had the data broken down for us that shows that it’s the...it’s all the supplements that the government has provided – that’s what’s got spent in the economy and kept us, you know, from being in an even more dire state than we are, so...

JANE HALTON

And it’s $12 billion. Let’s be clear, though, what the tax cut... I understand the numbers are about $12 billion. So, whilst you’re bringing down JobKeeper and JobSeeker, $12 billion will come back through tax cuts. The question is – how much of it will be saved and how much of it will be spent?

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, Jane Hume...

JIM CHALMERS

Just on that point, Jane...

JANE HUME

Hamish, I think it’s really important to come in here... Yeah, if you don’t mind, if I can come in here, because let’s face it, these tax cuts are in fact already legislated. And the government makes no apologies for...ever will make any...no apologies for wanting to allow people to keep more of the money that they earn.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sure. But with respect, this is about the timing...

JANE HUME

We took that legislation...we took that legislation to the last election...we took it to the last election...

HAMISH MACDONALD

This is about the timing, and whether you should bring it forward. So can you explain why now? Why are you deciding to bring this forward?

JANE HUME

Well, I’m not going to speculate about what might be in the budget tomorrow night, but what I will tell you is that those tax cuts have already been legislated. Labor supported those tax cuts and supported the legislation. And what we know is that the progressivity, you know, the progressiveness of the tax system remains. We will still find that the top 5% of taxpayers pay the...you know, by far the most amount of tax...

NICKI HUTLEY

Because they earn the most!

JANE HUME

..the top 30% of tax.

NICKI HUTLEY

Yeah.

JANE HUME

But that’s exactly right. And simplifying the tax system by removing that 37-cents-in-the-dollar bracket will, in fact, benefit... 94% of Australians will pay no more than 30% top marginal tax rate. That’s got to be a good thing.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you...?

JANE HUME

We’ll never apologise for allowing more Australians to keep more money in their pockets... It actually brings about financial resilience and confidence in the economy.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jim Chalmers, a lot of Australians have had a pretty tough year. Is Labor going to stand in the way of some tax cuts, potentially by Christmas according to some reports tonight?

JIM CHALMERS

We support the first two stages of the tax cuts and we support stage 2 being brought forward, so long as there’s additional tax relief for low-income earners as well, for all the reasons the other panellists have talked about. If there are going to be tax cuts, if they’re directed at people on low and middle incomes, they’re more likely to be spent in the economy, and people are more likely to need that additional help. So, yes, we support the first two stages. We haven’t been supportive of the third stage, because that third stage is the least responsible, least affordable, least fair, and least likely to be effective in the economy. We’ve made those views clear for some time now.

Jane Halton talked about the withdrawal of JobKeeper and being replaced in some part by these tax cuts. It’s really important to remember that for a worker who might be getting $50 a fortnight out of this...these tax cuts, if we’re predicting what might happen tomorrow night, many of them, millions of them, have actually just lost $300 a fortnight in JobKeeper. So they’re $250 in the hole. We need to remember that. Naomi talked about...

JANE HUME

JobKeeper has... Hang on. Jim...

JIM CHALMERS

Just let me make my final point there.

JANE HUME

Job... Hang on. JobKeeper has not been cut.

JIM CHALMERS

My final point is...

JANE HUME

It’s been extended, and you know that. It’s just tapering down.

JIM CHALMERS

It’s been cut by $300 a fortnight, Jane.

JANE HUME

And you agreed with the tapering down of JobKeeper six months ago.

JIM CHALMERS

No. We said it had to be tailored to the conditions in the economy, and the economy is still weak. It’s been cut.

JANE HUME

And it’s been extended as well as tapered.

JIM CHALMERS

It’s been cut. Jane, it’s been cut from $1,500 to $1,200 a fortnight.

JANE HUME

It’s been extended as well as... It’s been extended for more than six months, Jim.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane and Jim, I don’t think we need a repeat of the Trump-Biden debate, so let’s move...let’s just move...

JIM CHALMERS

No, but I need to make my final point, Hamish, that Jane interrupted. It’s gone from $1,500 to $1,200 a fortnight. But my final point is this...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s make it brief, please, Jim.

JIM CHALMERS

..and it’s to agree with Naomi. It’s to agree with Naomi. Tax cuts on their own aren’t a substitute for a more comprehensive plan for the economy. We can’t have the budget tomorrow night to just be another grab bag of headlines. It needs to be a comprehensive plan, and tax cuts on their own are not enough.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question. It’s from David Coddington, via Skype, in Victoria. David, thanks for joining us. I know you and you partner, Marco, have found yourselves in a pretty difficult set of circumstances. Can you just explain where you’ve found yourselves?

DAVID CODDINGTON

My partner, Marco, he works in hospitality. He’s here on an immigration visa. We’re doing the partnership. So, anyway, obviously, COVID hit, he lost his job in March this year. I’m in the fitness industry – I also stopped working around that time as well, because gyms are closed in Melbourne. So, since then, the only thing we’re getting is...the JobKeeper for myself, and Marco’s eligible for nothing.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And I know you’ve had to make some choices. You’ve had a bit of help with your rent. But you’ve also had some difficult conversations. Where’s that led you?

DAVID CODDINGTON

Well, he’s sort of like he’s stuck in a situation now where he’s got no family, no friends, no job, no money, no chance of getting back to Italy. And a couple of weeks ago he said he didn’t want to live like this anymore. And that whole conversation got a little bit darker into his mental health. Since then, he’s a little bit better. But that was a really rough couple of weeks to go through.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And tell me about the decision to withdraw super. Was that done because you wanted to use your money to invest or something like that? Or was it more out of the sort of desperation that you found ourselves in?

DAVID CODDINGTON

Well, you just know, on $1,500 a fortnight and paying rent, living in a major city, that’s not going to go far enough. And so we need that to live on until hospitality or PT opens up again. It will be nine months by the end from when we lost or job till maybe working again.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And so, your question for the panel tonight is about your decision to withdraw super. What’s your question?

DAVID CODDINGTON

Well, we sort of had no other choice. So, put yourself in Marco’s shoes. He pays taxes. He is an Australian person, he’s living here. Why isn’t the government sort of helping them out more? And where’s that leave us in the future? ‘Cause we’ve had to bite into it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nicki?

NICKI HUTLEY

Yeah. Look, I’ve been against this policy right from the start, because I think accessing super, particularly young people who are taking it out, means that they have, you know, just blown away their future retirement savings. When we had restrictions in place, they were for a damn good reason. But government-imposed restrictions mean that government has to help people out. There are far too many people who have fallen through the cracks.

There are many people who have the same sorts of stories like you. And I can tell you, in my own family, my son-in-law lost his job very early on. He worked in hospitality. He’s been lucky enough to find something since. But because his...my daughter, his partner, earned just to the cut-off, he was entitled to nothing. And there are so many families where two-income households are necessary to pay the rent or the mortgage. And that’s where these people get into trouble. There’s 98,000 temporary visa holders who are entitled to nothing. The charities have been overrun by trying to help them. There are too many Australians who have fallen through the cracks and we’ve stopped talking about them. We’re arguing about JobKeeper and JobSeeker and things being cut back and we’ve kind of forgotten... We were outraged at the start there were so many people who weren’t getting support. We need to remember that there are a lot of people getting absolutely nothing at all.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume, do you accept that there are some people, like David, who...and Marco, who’ve made these decisions really out of desperation rather than being strategic with their finances?

JANE HUME

Can I first of all say, you know, David and Marco, I feel for you. Coming from Victoria myself, I know the pain that Victorians are going through. In fact, the vast majority of correspondence that I have to my office, which is in Bridge Road in Richmond, which is, you know, it’s like tumbleweeds going down that retail strip these days... The vast majority of the correspondence I have to my office is actually asking for a third tranche of superannuation to be made available. Now, the early release of superannuation scheme has...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But doesn’t that say something...but doesn’t that say something about the supports that are already being made available by the government, if these people are in such desperate situations in Victoria that they want a third tranche of early access to super?

JANE HUME

Yes, I think that the second round of lockdowns and the excessive restrictions in Victoria have been so damaging, not just to people’s businesses, not just to people’s livelihoods, but also to their mental health as well. Certainly, the early release of superannuation scheme has been very successful – around 2.8 million Australians have taken out about $33 billion of superannuation in the past nine months alone. Now, to put that into context, $33 billion is about the same amount of money that the superannuation industry charged in fees last year alone. It’s just over 1% of the entire system. And it is about a quarter of the amount that Australians put into superannuation just last year. And we know that the vast majority of people overwhelmingly use that money to pay down debt, you know, pay for bills, pay off credit cards. We know 137,000 credit cards were cut up...last month alone.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. With respect, Minister...

JANE HUME

They’ve done the right thing.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..we’re pretty familiar with these points that have been made, and I asked you whether you accept that some people really have done this out of desperation. Do you acknowledge that?

JANE HUME

We put that in there... The reason why the early release of super scheme was initiated was a part of a safety net package for people that wanted to access their own savings. Now, we know that it comes at a trade-off. That trade-off… You know, we’ve directed as many people as we could to the ASIC website, that MoneySmart website, so they could see exactly what it would cost their retirement savings in the future. We know that a lot of young people accessed their superannuation, as Nicki said. The good news about that, of course, is that they have potentially 40 years in the workforce that they could make up the difference. Our focus now has to be on getting those young people back into work, so they can continue contributing to superannuation and make up the difference and to give them more opportunities to do so.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Jane Halton, if this is a trade-off, is it worth it for the individual? What’s it worth for an individual longer term?

JANE HALTON

Yeah, so, I mean, the cost to people’s retirement savings, I think, is very significant. But in David and Marco’s case, and I... David, please give our very best to Marco, because he’s been placed in an invidious position. There are many, many people around the country who are here on temporary visas – my daughter-in-law is one of them – and eligible for nothing. And so you’ve probably, without knowing all of your circumstances, done what is the prudent thing in the context. Because you’ve had to put food on the table. We understand that. And let’s be honest, your health and your welfare is the most important thing.

But I think the longer-term cost is something we’re going to be considering for a really long time. And so I am disappointed that, at a time, particularly when we discovered that these programs ended up costing less than was estimated at the beginning, that there wasn’t some flexibility shown for this category of person. Because this is really hard. And, David, I might be doing you a disservice, but I’m guessing you’re not that young a person, so you don’t have as long to make up those retirement savings. But in the short term, can you please focus on your wellbeing and Marco’s wellbeing.

NICKI HUTLEY

People are making up extra in their superannuation for the shortfall. It also means that they’re not spending as much for a much longer period of time...

JANE HALTON

That’s right. That’s right.

NICKI HUTLEY

..so you’re dragging on growth, if I could just make that point.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So...but what’s this going to cost us as a country if we have a whole raft of people that, down the track, have less in their... You’re saying this is a big impact on their individual retirement savings.

JANE HALTON

That’s right. That’s right.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What’s it going to cost all of us longer term?

JANE HALTON

So, essentially, if you look at what’s happened to the pension arrangements, and people have said... And there’s a whole argument which undoubtedly people will want to have about whether we should increase compulsory superannuation savings. But you’re starting to see the impact of those changes. So you’re now starting to see many more people who are actually on a combination of a pension and some private retirement savings. So that means they’ve got a better quality of life in their older years, which is fantastic. What we really are now...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So do you accept the government’s argument, just make up this difference...

JANE HALTON

For some people they won’t be able to. We know that. For some people...

JANE HUME

Certainly for older people we think that it will be much harder to make up. But I think you also have to consider the counter-argument, Hamish – I mean, what is the alternative? Potentially, if people couldn’t access that, you know, bit of financial buffer or something to pay down their debts or pay down their bills, when they, you know, found themselves suddenly unemployed, they potentially might have gone to a payday lender or they would have taken out, you know, credit card debt or sold an asset that was valuable to them. People have been...have been given a choice whether they want to access their superannuation, and some of them have taken that up.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

JIM CHALMERS

Some people have no choice, Jane, and that’s the point really that David is making about Marco. No doubt, David, you’re a tremendous source of support to Marco, but we’ve got responsibilities to him as well. And too many people in this recession have been left out and left behind, and they have had to turn to their superannuation in desperation. And the Minister for Superannuation just spoke about early access as if it’s something that she’s proud of. It’s something that the Minister for Superannuation should be ashamed of, the fact that so much damage has been done to people’s retirement incomes. A young worker who’s taken out $20,000 might be $100,000 worse off in retirement. That’s something that the Minister should be ashamed of. We have a Minister for Superannuation whose only achievement seems to have been to destroy the retirement incomes of too many workers. And the reason that that has happened is because the government hasn’t supported enough workers in our economy – Marco’s situation, but also aviation workers, arts and entertainment, a million casuals, all left out and left behind by the government, having to ruin and raid their nest egg in response. And it’s not something that the Minister should be proud of.

JANE HUME

Well, I am proud of it, Jim, and I take umbrage to that. I find that quite offensive. In fact, this program has been very successful. The vast majority of correspondence I have received has been from people that have been grateful for the ability to access some of their own savings – let’s recall this. It’s not the government’s money...

JIM CHALMERS

You’ve given them no choice, Jane.

JANE HUME

..it’s not Labor’s money, it’s not unions’ money, it’s not even the funds’ money. It’s their money. It’s their savings. They worked for it. They earned it. They saved it.

JIM CHALMERS

It’s their retirement, too.

JANE HUME

And they have chosen to access that money. They have chosen to access it.

NAOMI SIMSON

What I see is...what I see is that small businesses too have had to dip into their superannuation to not just keep their families afloat, but to try and keep their businesses afloat. Very hard when they don’t know, particularly in Victoria or Queensland, where they’re desperate for tourism from other parts, and also Western Australian tourism. Very, very difficult. But what people forget is that small business has a choice. They don’t have to show up when they’ve decided to open the doors. They closed it. Right. Business is now closed. You can no longer... To your point, hospitality and personal training, Marco and David, they just...they’re closed. Well, this is not a sustainable way for us to move forward.

Now, with these businesses, all of them are going to require governance, compliance, retraining, and also many are going to require stock. I walked into a store in Sydney, ‘cause I can do that. I said, “Oh, you’ve got no stock.” They said, “We didn’t order any, ‘cause we didn’t know if we’d be open.” So these businesses are beginning to say, “It is too hard.” I got a letter from one of... It’s actually an email – we’re quite modern now! I got an email from one of our chocolate high teas, and he’s in Collins Street in Victoria. And I’ve worked with him for six years, and he does this beautiful... He’s Belgian, he’s a master chocolatier. And he wrote to me... And we’ve been supporting him throughout this, trying to transition his business to being online. He says, “But, Naomi, the chocolate is so beautiful, it will melt.” And I said, “It’s winter in Victoria – perhaps not.” So he said, “Look, I just don’t know if I will ever get foot traffic again. I’ve worked in my business for decades. It’s time for me to retire. I didn’t think I’d do this for 10 years.”

This is 10 years that he won’t be contributing to his superannuation. It is pressure on our social services system, maybe not particularly him – I don’t know his personal circumstance. But when we think about small business, as the largest employer, if small business is unable to employ and get Marco and David back to work, which is what they want to do, then not only their superannuation will be decimated, but so will the small business owners’, and it is a cycle that will end us in a long-term disaster. We need small businesses to be able to plan, to be able to open, and to be able to do business. And if one more person says, “Well, go online...” I promise you, not every small business can go online.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question tonight. It’s from Zaki Haidari in the studio.

ZAKI HAIDARI

My name is Zaki Haidari. I am a refugee from Afghanistan who escaped the Taliban. Despite being recognised as a refugee, I have only been granted a temporary protection visa. It makes it hard for me to gain permanent employment, and excluding me from the JobKeeper and the JobSeeker. It’s much harder for others in my community – men, women, children have been left to rely on charity to survive. None of this makes sense to me. Prime Minister Scott Morrison said, “We’re all in this together.” But will this budget continue to leave us behind?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume?

JANE HUME

Zaki, can I say, you know, your story is indeed heartbreaking and, you know, my sympathies are extended to you. And, obviously, you know, there has been some hiccups in settling into Australia. I’m so sorry that after the experiences you have gone through that you’ve now entered our country to find us in this unprecedented health crisis. Temporary visa holders more broadly, not... (STAMMERS) ..temporary protection visa holders, but temporary visa holders, when they come to Australia, are, unfortunately, expected to be able to pay their own way. That has always been the case. I think that temporary protection visas should be considered differently. And, Zaki, if you wouldn’t mind, I would like to take your case offline and speak to you after the show, get the producers to connect us and I’ll have a chat with you.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume, just on this, I mean, we’ve had questions about this sort of thing right throughout the pandemic. I’m wondering why charities is the only thing that we as a nation can offer people in this situation? Surely, given all the spending... I mean, we’re about to embark on the biggest spending spree as a nation that we’ve ever undergone – why can’t we include some of these people?

JANE HUME

Well, Hamish, I wouldn’t call it a spending spree. What we’re looking to do is to cushion the blow for as many people as we possibly can to recover from the pandemic and to rebuild the economy.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s not debate the semantics. What about the people? Let’s focus on them, please.

JANE HUME

Yeah. I mean, as I said, temporary visa holders have always been understood to have to pay their own way in Australia, and that...the vast majority of support that the federal government provides has been for Australian citizens and permanent residents. There has been some supports provided by the states, certainly by universities, I know, for international students, and also by community groups...

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

JANE HUME

..for temporary protection visa holders, and temporary visa holders.

NICKI HUTLEY

The problem is, those...those charities – and I know this firsthand from a lot of my friends who are working at the coalface – are saying, “We don’t have enough money.” That demand has gone up 300%. And, unfortunately, the donations are going down. Welcome to our country, and I apologise that you’re going through this. I wish I personally could do something to change it. I think it is disgraceful and, you know, I am deeply sorry. I’m moved.

JANE HALTON

And let’s be clear, there’s a history to this, which we don’t need to go over here. But it’s not the case that this was always so. There were reasons that these arrangements were put in place – to disincentivise people to come. That’s not the situation we’re in today. It’s hard to get here in any way, shape or form, including Australians who want to come home, can’t get here. Again, I would argue that this is a time for some compassion.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question tonight. It’s from Lara Czysnok, who’s here in the studio audience with us. I’m going to come and join you but stay at a safe distance under COVID rules. What’s your question for the panel tonight?

LARA CZYSNOK

My question for the panel tonight is that pursuing gender equality outcomes has become out of reach and is exacerbated by COVID-19. In August 2020, the gender pay gap sat at 14%. To mitigate the impact of COVID-19, all levels of government have taken unprecedented action – unlocking funding and equity. In the case of superannuation, this has serious implications for women. My concern is that it has been a stop-gap. It has not addressed high levels of uncertainty around our economic sovereignty, institutional financing, and foreign policy. As a young professional woman, I am genuinely concerned about my future and that of our generation. What is the government doing, and what will the new budget do, to sort of future-proof and ensure that all women get a fair go in the post-COVID recovery?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume, to you first.

JANE HUME

Yes, thank you, Hamish. And thank you for that question. Do you know, at the beginning of this year, you know, one of the...I think the...the proudest things for me was that we had a higher level of female participation rate in the workforce than we’d ever seen before. And we’d seen that gender pay gap come down from the mid-17%s down to 14.2%. That’s...you’re right, that’s exactly right. We know that when more women participate in the workforce, not only do we get higher levels of productivity, but of course, the gender pay gap comes down, the gender retirement cap comes down...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane, I suspect the questioner knows all of this. So, I just want to point you to the actual question, which is about THIS budget. Should... It sounds like you want a guarantee about... or some kind of indication of how women will be recognised in this budget.

JANE HUME

In fact, there is a women’s economic statement that is going to be issued by Marise Payne soon after the budget. And there will be more to say in that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But not in the budget?

JANE HUME

Well, I... The budget is not gender specific. It will affect all Australians. I think there’s been some good news, though, in that the 458,000 jobs that have come back in the last three months, 60% of those went to women and 40% went to young people. That’s got to be a good thing.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jim Chalmers, what would Labor do to make sure that women are prioritised in the COVID recovery?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, I think it’s really important to recognise, as the question does, that this COVID-19 crisis has accelerated some of the challenges that we had in the economy when it comes to wage disparities, when it comes to superannuation. I think it’s still the case that women, on average, retire with just over half the superannuation balances of men, partly because of the way the system is structured, but also because of broken work patterns and the fact that it’s harder and harder for women to participate fully in the workforce for the length of their career. So ideally, in the budget, we’d be recognising, for example, when it comes to women’s participation, that there has been issues with childcare, for example. There have been issues with costs of childcare, childcare workers were among the first thrown off...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, what would Labor do on childcare?

JIM CHALMERS

..JobKeeper. We’ll have more to say in...you know, between now and the election when it comes to childcare. But I guess the point that we’re making is we need to recognise that women have been disproportionately impacted by this crisis. That has implications for salaries and wages, for superannuation, for participation in the workforce. One of the disappointing things – as my colleague, Amanda Rishworth, has pointed out repeatedly – is that childcare workers were actually the first thrown off of JobKeeper. That is clearly an issue that needs to be addressed by the government.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Lara, what do you do?

LARA CZYSNOK

I’m a law graduate.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. And I suspect you’ve just been told a lot of stuff you already know.

LARA CZYSNOK

Mm.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you have much optimism out of what both sides are telling you?

LARA CZYSNOK

I know a lot of me and my cohort are very disillusioned going into the graduate workforce, and it’s...a lot of slim opportunities. And I know that women are...have been disproportionately affected by COVID-19 and, yes, we know it’s just very bleak looking at the future.

HAMISH MACDONALD

The government’s paying for, or helping to pay for, apprenticeships. Would you take up an apprenticeship?

LARA CZYSNOK

I think I’ve come this far, I can’t turn back now! But it’s just very disillusioning to look at...knowing we’ll graduate and we’ll have less super, and what...do we want childcare, and all these things we have to sort of rethink now, even though I’m only 21, knowing that the government doesn’t think that women are being disproportionately affected or isn’t addressing it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, this is being described as a pink recession. Do you think the recovery is pink? Do you think the plans that you’ve heard...

LARA CZYSNOK

I think it’s very colour-blind, yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let me put that to the panel. Jane Halton, are women being sort of recognised equally in the way that we’re planning to come out of this crisis?

JANE HALTON

Well, I think the points that have been made are absolutely right. Women lost jobs disproportionately as we went into this recession. Now, the upside is that the women are getting jobs earlier in the recovery, but they’re part-time jobs. And the kind of jobs that we’re looking for, for women, are regardless of where you are in the workforce, there should be women there. So I’m looking to see whether those apprenticeships that we’re hearing are going to be announced. I mean, wouldn’t it be great if 50% of those apprenticeships went to women? You can immediately...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Will they?

JANE HALTON

Well, you tell me, Hamish. I’m guessing no.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I mean, all of the news coverage, all of the photo ops, don’t seem to particularly include...

JANE HALTON

Yep.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..women. Am I just missing something here?

NICKI HUTLEY

Well, to me, this is...this is not just a COVID issue. This is well before COVID.

JANE HALTON

That’s right.

NICKI HUTLEY

So, I’m involved in something called the Financy Women’s Economic Progress Index, and we have a whole load of pillars that we measure women’s progress versus men. The biggest area of disadvantage – and this shows that we are 32 years, or an entire generation, away from equality and that’s if we keep making the progress on some of the fronts that we have been making. And, of course, things will likely slow as we get closer to the end. So, the biggest thing there is the ratio of paid to unpaid work. Women who work outside the home do twice as much work as men who work outside. In a, you know, hetero-normative couple, um...you know, because that’s the way the stats work, unfortunately.

But... So what we need to do is systemically, we actually need to look at, well, why do girls pursue particular careers? Why are we told that we’re crap at maths when we...when we start out? Why don’t...? Why aren’t we doing...? Why aren’t there more women who will take up...? You know, we talk about the tradies, and everyone says, “Oh, well, there’s going to be a blue recovery because only men are tradies.” Why can’t women be tradies? Why can’t we be anything we want? Why can’t our employers be more flexible? Why can’t we have superannuation when we go on parental leave? Why aren’t men going on parental leave more? And lots of big firms are starting to implement these policies...

NAOMI SIMSON

There’s another point here too, which is about youth and coming out of university, which I’m sure it was not an inexpensive degree that you’ve managed to, you know, work very hard to get. And there’s a request that I make of employers I know that, in placing one job ad for a graduate person, 250 applicants for that role. And that it just takes respect to make sure you get back to everybody. You know, respect is a very important thing as we are more challenged than we’ve ever been before.

And the other thing to say is that if everybody took on one graduate – every small business took on one graduate – we wouldn’t have this issue at all. So, I would like to see in the budget some stimulus, to my point, of extending the apprenticeships, not just being to the traditional trades, but to how do we use that law degree in different ways?

NICKI HUTLEY

And can we have some better childcare, more affordable childcare, and the tax breaks that don’t maybe...? When you work the fourth and fifth day, you’re penalised.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. And just a reminder, ABC News is also taking your questions this week about the federal budget. You can head to abc.net.au/news. To get involved, help shape our coverage, use the hashtag #QandA and I’ll try and get some answers for you on that. Our next question comes from Peter King.

PETER KING

Thanks, Hamish. Is COVID-19 now endemic in Australia and indeed around the world, and if not, is it inevitable, similarly to chickenpox and malaria, that it will be? I’m also interested to know the panel’s opinion with respect to the reality of a vaccine being discovered and distributed worldwide in some of the time frames we see reported in the media. On a daily basis, we hear 6, 12, 18 months, including one world leader suggesting even sooner. What is the reality of these pronouncements becoming actual reality?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane, we’re told that this budget factors in a vaccine...

JANE HALTON

Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..sometime next year. Is that wise? Can we trust that?

JANE HALTON

I’m told that as well. We’ll see, won’t we, what the assumption is when we see tomorrow night. Look, I’m...I’m moderately optimistic that we will actually succeed in discovering or creating a vaccine for COVID-19. There are some 23 vaccines that are currently in human trials around the world. The not-for-profit that I lead globally has nine of those vaccines. It is absolutely the case that some of those vaccine candidates will fail. We’re now at the point where the rubber is hitting the road, so I’m not expecting... And, remember, there is not a human coronavirus vaccine that has ever been created.

So, in terms of timetable, if some of the leading candidates were successful... And Australia’s got supply agreements in relation to two specific candidates – the Oxford candidate, which I’m sure you’ve all heard of, and then the University of Queensland. They’re on different timetables. If the Oxford vaccine succeeds, there would be some vaccine imported early next year, and then CSL will supply and manufacture. University of Queensland later. And then the COVAX facility, which I co-chair with Dr Ngozi, will actually pool-purchase a vaccine. So, I’m optimistic we will get there on a vaccine, but when is the $64 question. Let’s go buy a lottery ticket, shall we? But, at the moment, I would say middle of next year, we should be moderately optimistic, but it’s still got a way to go, so...

HAMISH MACDONALD

And just with your sort of Department of Finance hat on...

JANE HALTON

Yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..that you once had, if you get the assumption wrong on something like this, what does that do to the budget and the numbers that we’re looking at? Does it blow it out of the water?

JANE HALTON

So, I think we might have all heard Mathias Cormann, our retiring finance minister, who I work with very closely, saying this morning – and I agree with him completely – “You can only make a budget based on assumptions that are correct at the time you make it.” Everything from the iron ore price through to the modelling that you can do based on what you know now. So, the truth of the matter is we will look at the budget tomorrow, there’ll be a bunch of assumptions in it. If circumstances change, the numbers will change. Let’s hope that they’re optimistic and they’re right.

NICKI HUTLEY

Jane, can I... Sorry, Hamish. Can I just ask...? ‘Cause my understanding is that, whilst we might have a vaccine developed, the logistics of getting it out to everyone, that it’s possibly going to need two or three doses...

JANE HALTON

Yes. Two doses, probably.

NICKI HUTLEY

So, what does that timeline...? ‘Cause all of our forecasts absolutely hinge on that.

JANE HALTON

Yeah, so, global manufacturing... So, if everyone thinks about this – that there are 8 billion people in the world. Assume some people don’t want it. Fine. But let’s assume you’re going to make vaccines for about 8 billion people. So, just do the math about how long that takes. Quite a long time.

One of the reasons we’re saying that, round the world, the most vulnerable should be vaccinated first, as opposed to wealthy countries vaccinating the whole country first, if you vaccinate wealthy countries first, you will cut deaths by a third. You vaccinate the vulnerable around the world, you will cut deaths by two-thirds. Two-thirds. But this is why we have to target that vaccine. Some vaccines are fast to make. Some vaccines, not so. The AstraZeneca vaccine, we would probably get enough probably by middle to the...towards the back end of next year for us.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Just on pandemic preparedness, Jim Chalmers, I believe Labor is going to have something to say this week about a Centre For Disease Control. Are you saying that, were this to happen again and Labor were in government, we’d have a very different set-up?

JIM CHALMERS

Yes, Hamish. I think we need to catch up with every other country in the OECD and have a Centre for Disease Control, or an equivalent. And what that would recognise is that we weren’t as well-prepared as we should have been for this pandemic. We need to learn the lessons from that and be better prepared for the next pandemic. This time around, we didn’t have enough equipment. We were over-reliant on global supply chains. We hadn’t run a drill for something like 12 years, and so we need to learn from that. We need a Centre for Disease Control which can manage the stockpile, interact with the states and with global best practice, run the drills, be on top of this situation, so that if – heaven forbid – we get another pandemic of this scale, or even worse, that we’re better prepared for the next one than we are for the last one. The vaccine...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But how would having...? How would having a Centre for Disease Control actually change the scenario we’re in currently?

JIM CHALMERS

Well, it would change our ability to interact with manufacturers of equipment. It would better be able to manage the stockpile of equipment. It would be a permanent body which would interact with the states and with global best practice. It would run those drills, which are really important and haven’t happened for a dozen years.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Is that right, Jane?

JANE HALTON

Yeah. Look, so, Jim makes a really important point. In my day, we actually did practice for these things, and the stockpile was created when I was secretary. But there’s a thing that he’s missing. One of the things that we know is... People are saying, “A 100-year event.” Well, let me tell you, it could happen tomorrow with another virus. And we know that people are living more closely together, and that makes us more vulnerable, but we don’t invest in what we call the priority pathogens, the things that are at risk, because there’s no market in them. So, the CEPI, that I chair, one of the reasons we were set up is to actually spend money on these pathogens that we worry could turn into this kind of event.

So, the other thing we need to do – and Australia needs to be part of this – we need to make sure that we tackle this pandemic with all of our effort and all the science that we can muster. But at the same time, we need to spend money actually preparing not just the stockpile, not just the logistics, but that we do the research work on these other pathogens that we worry about.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question. It’s from Raymond Trau in our studio.

RAYMOND TRAU

Thanks, Hamish. The higher education sector not only contributes to the intellectual capital of this country, it also makes an enormous economic contribution to our country. We see job losses and reduction in courses or programs in the sector. My question to the panels are, how do you think the higher education sector will contribute to the economic recovery? And why is the federal government refusing to save the sector?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume, and... Jane Hume, you’re refusing to save the sector, according to Raymond.

JANE HUME

No, not in the least. In fact, I think we’re doing an awful lot for the sector. In fact, we’ve guaranteed them $18 billion in funding this year. Obviously, the universities... And let’s face it – they’re multibillion-dollar institutions. If they were listed on the ASX, they’d be in the top 200. You know, these organisations have relied very heavily on international students in the past, and yet they haven’t risk-managed for the potential loss of those international students. That’s why we’ve provided them with $18 billion worth of guaranteed funding this year to get them through the crisis. We know that they’ve lost some staff...

HAMISH MACDONALD

You did cut them out of JobKeeper, though, with respect.

JANE HUME

No, no. Actually, universities qualified for JobKeeper if they met the criteria. We know that...

JIM CHALMERS

Yeah, you made the criteria too hard for them to meet.

JANE HUME

Well, we know that they have lost around 2.4% of their staff. Now, the rest of the economy’s lost 4.2%, so they’ve actually been disproportionately affected on the upside. What we have done, though – and I think this is important – is establish the Job Ready Graduate Program, which will increase the number of university places next year. And, in fact, it will increase the number of university places by 100,000 places by 2030. And it will make getting a university degree much cheaper for around 60% of students – either cheaper or it will stay the same – and it will prepare graduates for the jobs outside in the workforce, the jobs of the future, whether they be in teaching or nursing or science or IT. And it’s not just the courses either. It’s the units within courses. So, even if you do a course that doesn’t necessarily meet that criteria, you can pick electives that will make your degree much cheaper.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let me bring Naomi Simson in. Do you believe in this Job Ready idea? Do you think the changes being made are actually going to mean that employers can take more people on?

NAOMI SIMSON

I think that all the universities are at very different stages of how they engage with the community they serve, which is also the businesses and the corporations. I know UTS, for instance, has a very robust internship and program...

HAMISH MACDONALD

You have some involvement with UTS?

NAOMI SIMSON

Yes. Well, it is across the road. It’s not very far. So, yes, working with them. But I also work with the University of Melbourne in the business and economics faculty, and one of the things is that undergraduates there see small business or being business owners as an attractive career path, which is also something that, traditionally, they may not have looked at. And that is a very valid career.

So, there’s a lot of conversation from the likes of Scott Galloway on how tertiary education is about to be disrupted, because it is...it is expensive for young people to start in our society with a debt and then home ownership and things become even harder, especially if it’s a long journey to find something in their career. The more that business can work closely with tertiary education... So, what is it that businesses need? We need data scientists, we need programmers, we need UX, we need logistics. You know, let’s look at what we really need a lot of, and how do we add those...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, price signals to students – do you think that’s the answer?

NAOMI SIMSON

Pricing for students?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Price signals. Make it more expensive to do the things where the jobs aren’t?

NAOMI SIMSON

No. I don’t think so. I would hate to think that curiosity and people’s ability to learn is limited only by an economic outcome or a job. Otherwise, we’ll never discover anything new. So, that would be not the role of tertiary institutions. However, I do think that the... the outcome has changed from pure academia and research to how are we supporting the community...

JANE HALTON

But we... But we also need research.

NAOMI SIMSON

We do need research.

JANE HALTON

We actually also need the research sector in universities, and we need business to actually work with universities as well. So, there’s the student outcome, which is really important. But where’s our prosperity going to come from in the medium-term? And partnering between business and universities, if we lose the research, those early researchers, they’ll never come back. So, I think there’s another priority we need to focus on.

NICKI HUTLEY

Can I just say, Bruce Chapman, who is the father of HECS, has done the modelling on the government’s policy, and says that the pricing will do nothing other than disadvantage some students and advantage others. It won’t actually change people’s choices.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Our next question tonight is a video from Cath Murray in New South Wales.

CATH MURRAY, WOOLLAHRA, NSW

I still get emotional listening to I Am Woman. It makes me feel proud and powerful. I was reminded of it when Helen Reddy died this week. I think what it means to be a woman is different for every woman, and we should take pride in that. Sometimes I actually feel sorry for men and the struggle they have in the limited definition of what it is to be a man. I’m so grateful to the women that have forged a path that allows me and my daughter to be the women we want to be. My question is, why and how are these lyrics still relevant today?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Nicki Hutley?

NICKI HUTLEY

This is... I wasn’t really familiar with Helen at the time, but I’m very proud to be an active member and on the board of 1 Million Women, which is a...a climate and sustainability organisation – everyone sign up, please. And that collective voice of women making decisions every day to make a better environment, women are... We are absolutely amazing, and despite all the problems that you raised earlier tonight, we just keep going and we don’t give up. So, a fantastic anthem that is as relevant today as it has ever been.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Halton?

JANE HALTON

Oh, I remember first hearing this and seeing my mother’s copy of The Female Eunuch... on a table in the living room. It was just before I was a teenager. It really, really, resonated. And when she sang this at a rally, I think after Trump was elected, it resonated just...just as much. And I think it would also be a shame, Hamish, if we didn’t also acknowledge Susan Ryan, another domestic leader for women. And it is a shame...

HAMISH MACDONALD

A Labor politician who died.

JANE HALTON

A Labor politician. But it is a shame that these lyrics are as relevant to us today as they were, you know, in...in that time, and that we haven’t made more progress.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jane Hume?

JANE HUME

I love this song, not just because I can belt it out at karaoke, but...but mainly because of that...that sense of empowerment that it gives women. That it’s not about sort of whingeing. It’s about strength, and, uh... and that’s what I think I love about it most of all. It’s not about, you know, equality of outcomes. It’s about equality of opportunity, which is so much about what this government is about too.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jim Chalmers, is this your feminist anthem?

JIM CHALMERS

Look, I think it was really sad to see Helen Reddy pass, and in the same fortnight that we lost Susan Ryan and also Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I knew Susan Ryan. I didn’t know Helen Reddy. I was... Susan Ryan was someone that I knew and admired greatly. When it comes to that song – and I’m looking forward to hearing Jane Hume belt it out – but when it comes to that song, we played it for my little three-year-old daughter, Annabel, over the weekend, trying to explain to her that the women that came before her... And also to my little boys as well. And I think it’s remarkable, all these years later since that song was released, the impact that it has on...it has on people, and the opportunity it has for all of us to remember the contribution of women like Helen, like Susan, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg and so many others.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Naomi, one final thought?

NAOMI SIMSON

Yes, I remember my mother going off in her business suits to work in computers and I just wanted to be like my mum. And when I heard that song, Mum...I didn’t know, and she said, “She’s Australian.” And I remember being so immensely proud of being Australian. And she said, “You can do anything,” and always have followed her words of wisdom.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Well, we’re pleased that you’ve done that. Just stay tuned for the music. That’s all we’ve got time for tonight. Please put your hands together for our panel: Nicki Hutley, Jane Hume, Naomi Simson, Jim Chalmers and Jane Halton. Please thank all of them.

Thanks to those of you here in the studio and you at home for sharing your stories and questions tonight. And thanks to those of you streaming us on iview as well. Before we leave you tonight, a quick word. We did ask the Federal Treasurer, Josh Frydenberg, to join us next week in a one-on-one to answer the steady stream of questions that you’re sending us on these unprecedented economic times. He did decline that request. Throughout the year, we’ve also invited the Prime Minister to join us on several occasions. He’s yet to make himself available, but we will continue trying them, trying to get them here to answer your questions. We know how important your questions are.

Next Monday, the Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese, will be here. He’s unveiling Labor’s policy agenda in his budget reply on Thursday night. So, get your questions in early. You can also register to join us in our studio audience.

To close tonight, it’s my great honour to introduce Mahalia Barnes and her band, Ben Rodgers and Clayton Doley, backed up by an all-female choir, formed just for tonight – Prinnie Stevens, Joy Yates, Juanita Tippins, Lyric McFarland and Rebekah Jensen. They are strong, they are definitely invincible, and they’re here to pay tribute to the one and only Helen Reddy.

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am woman, hear me roar

# In numbers too big to ignore

# And I know too much to go back and pretend

# ‘Cause I’ve heard it all before

# And I’ve been down there on the floor

# And no-one’s going to keep me down again

# Oh

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Yes, I am wise

MAHALIA BARNES

# But it’s wisdom born of pain

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Yes, I’ve paid the price

MAHALIA BARNES

# But look how much I’ve gained

# If I have to

# I can do

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Anything

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am strong

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Strong

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am invincible

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Invincible

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am woman

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Ooh

MAHALIA BARNES

# You can bend but never break me

# ‘Cause it only serves to make me

# More determined to achieve my final goal

# And I’ll come back even stronger

# I’m not a novice any longer

# ‘Cause you’ve deepened the conviction in my soul

# Oh

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Yes, I am wise

MAHALIA BARNES

# But it’s wisdom born of pain

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Oh, yes, I’ve paid the price

MAHALIA BARNES

# But look how much I gained

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# If I have to

MAHALIA BARNES

# I can do

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Anything

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am strong

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Strong

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am invincible

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Invincible

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am woman

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Ooh

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am woman

# Watch me grow

# See me standing toe to toe

# As I spread my loving arms across the land

# But I’m still an embryo

# With a long, long way to go

# Until I make my brother understand

# Oh

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Yes, I am wise

MAHALIA BARNES

# But it’s wisdom born of pain

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Yes, I paid the price

MAHALIA BARNES

# But look how much I gained

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# If I have to

MAHALIA BARNES

# I can face

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Anything

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am strong

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Strong

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am invincible

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Invincible

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am woman

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# I am woman

MAHALIA BARNES

# Oh, yeah!

# Mmm!

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Oh, yes

MAHALIA BARNES

# You know that I

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# I am woman

# Oh, yes

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am woman

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# I am woman

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am woman

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Oh, yes

MAHALIA BARNES

# Oh, oh-oh, oh, oh-oh

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# I am woman

MAHALIA BARNES

# Ah

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Oh, yes

MAHALIA BARNES

# You know, you know that I

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# I am woman

# Oh, yes

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am strong

# I am strong

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# I am woman

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am invincible

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Oh, yes

MAHALIA BARNES

# Hey, yeah

# Oh, yeah

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# I am woman

MAHALIA BARNES

# I am a woman

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Oh, yes

MAHALIA BARNES

# Hear me roar

# I am woman

# Oh, yeah

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Oh, yes

MAHALIA BARNES

# Oh

# Oh, you know that I am strong

# I am strong

# I am invincible

# Oh, you know that I

# I-I-I

# I am a woman

PRINNIE STEVENS, JOY YATES, JUANITA TIPPINS, LYRIC MCFARLAND AND REBEKAH JENSEN

# Ooh

MAHALIA BARNES

# Oh, ooh-ooh-ooh. #