Media and Misinformation

Panellist %
Barnaby Joyce 23
Antoinette Lattouf 22
Ziggy Ramo 20
Michelle Rowland 18
Niki Savva 10
Sinead Boucher (preRec) 7

HAMISH MACDONALD

Who do you get your news from during this pandemic? Do you even trust the news that you’re getting? Are you clicking your way through social media. or are you keeping it old school? The misinformation is swirling online, and a new report today points to overwhelming whiteness on our television screens. Does it really reflect Australia? Does it really reflect you? You’ve got loads of questions tonight, so let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q&A.

Hey, there. Good evening. Welcome to the program. Joining me on the panel tonight: Nationals member for New England and a former deputy prime minister, Barnaby Joyce; Shadow Minister for Communications, Michelle Rowland, is also here; the author and columnist for The Australian Niki Savva is joining us remotely; hip-hop artist Ziggy Ramo, who is performing live for you later; senior reporter at the 10 Network and director of Media Diversity Australia, Antoinette Lattouf; and a little later in the show, we’ll hear from Sinead Boucher, who’s the CEO of Stuff – it’s New Zealand’s most popular news site, but it’s doing something pretty incredible. Please make them all feel welcome.

Remember, as always, you can stream us on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. #QandA is the hashtag. Every week, we ask our panellists to keep their contributions to the debate respectful, and we do ask that of you at home as well. So, please, if you are on social media, keep that in mind.

Our first question tonight comes from Anhaar Kareem in the studio.

ANHAAR KAREEM

As a person who loves public speaking and debating, when I watch the news, I never see anybody who looks like me. I’ve always wanted to be a journalist, and the problem is I don’t think that Australia would be able to accept someone like me. Do you think that there is a chance in the near future that Australians would be accepting of somebody who is a hijabi journalist, like me, on their TV screens?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Antoinette.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF, DIRECTOR, MEDIA DIVERSITY AUSTRALIA

I believe you absolutely have a place on our TV screens. And I see Dad is with you? That’s amazing. ‘Cause when I wanted to be a journalist, my dad told me to be a hairdresser instead. So, it’s amazing that Dad is here to support you. Look, there’s no doubt there’s a long way to go in terms of our newsrooms being inclusive. I’ve worked alongside some trainees or people doing internships who wear hijabs. I haven’t seen them return to television, especially not in the commercial world.

I believe in Canada, for example, and also in New Zealand, we have seen women, Islamic women, with headscarves on prime-time television. But what our report has found is that Australia has a pretty long way to go in terms of catching up with other Western democracies similar to ours. But you’re in Year 8 – is that correct? So, you’ve got a few years to go. Hopefully, by then. Change is slow, but it’s happening, and I hope, for your sake, but also for audiences who should hear perspective like yours...perspectives like yours, that our newsrooms are more inclusive.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What have you actually found, though, in your report? What have you found in the Australian media landscape?

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And what’s the actual problem?

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

So, what we have found – and some will say it’s a pretty obvious observation – that our television screens are overwhelmingly white. So, our research looked at television news and current affairs, specifically. So, every program, from your breakfast television programs, right through to Q+A. And it looked at who was presenting, reporting, and who was commentating on the programs, and it compared the cultural diversity make-up to the Australian population. That was one component. We also looked at editorial leaders. So, what the boards look like, what state directors...news directors look like, as well as a survey of attitudes of people in newsrooms, and then interviews with newsroom leaders. So, what it found, on our screens, around 75% are of an Anglo background. And when it comes to Indigenous and diverse Australians, less than 6%, even though we amount to about... So, non-European, we amount to about 25% of the population. So, hugely under-represented at kind of the face value of when you switch on your television. But the management was even more monolithic across all of the networks. So, 100% of news directors in Australia are Anglo male. National news directors.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What does this do to the way Australia is reflected back to itself?

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Well, obviously, it has a trickle-down effect on which stories are told, how they’re framed, how they’re...which stories are selected, the voices that are put forward. Too often we see, on all the networks, including the ABC, which we saw on Insiders after the Black Lives Matter protests, panels which were 100% white, commenting on issues that affect multicultural Australia, commenting on refugees, commenting on Black Lives Matter protests, commenting on immigration policy.

And as I... I guess I liken it to a cooking show. You wouldn’t have a cooking show and a panel of experts where no-one is a chef, or no-one knows how to cook. But for some reason, when it comes to news and current affairs, we think it’s acceptable to not have diverse voices. So, I believe that really limits public discourse. Audiences are missing out.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby, what do you think?

BARNABY JOYCE, NATIONALS MEMBER FOR NEW ENGLAND

Well, first of all, congratulations. And I believe that Australia’s an evolving place, and you’re going to have a future if you want it. It’s the egalitarian nature of Australia. I don’t think, to be quite frank – and I’m from the country – I don’t think people give a toss what you wear. They give a toss about what you say. And they want to see balance. If I... What I’d be looking for if you’re on the ABC, I’d say, “OK, I want to see as many right-wing commentators as I see left-wing commentators.” I’m really interested in getting that challenge of views, those challenge of ideas, the proper debate, rather than seeing a sort of suite of people where I listen to one and I’ll go, “And here goes all the rest saying exactly the same thing.” That is what really annoys me. What you wear and what your colour is completely irrelevant. I’m red. How many of those do we have on television?

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Barnaby, I agree with you, and I’d argue that more diversity would lead to more diversity of opinions. Like, just amongst our members... So, we’ve got a national committee, a Victorian committee, a Queensland committee, we’ve got a real diversity of opinion. We have a lot of conservative views, a lot of religious views. And what I found, particularly in light of sort of the same-sex marriage plebiscite and the discussion that was had, to me, it was no surprise the two LGAs in Australia with the highest No vote were...

BARNABY JOYCE

Western Sydney.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

..South Western Sydney and Western Sydney.

BARNABY JOYCE

Mm.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

But that’s where I grew up. They were the conversations I had, was having with relatives who were incredibly religious, who were incredibly close to their culture.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, that’s right. And they don’t want to be belittled by their views. They don’t want to be able to go on and say, “Well, now I have to completely comply with the views of the zeitgeist.”

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Yep.

BARNABY JOYCE

They want to feel that, “I’m entitled to these views.”

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Mm-hm.

BARNABY JOYCE

“I’m allowed to express these views.” And especially on things like a public broadcaster...

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Absolutely.

BARNABY JOYCE

..it’s very important. On a private organisation, well, they’ve got to make advertising revenue. And so... And you’ve both worked in them. They don’t make advertising revenue, they won’t be there, no matter what colour people are.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Michelle Rowland, do you think actually the media does have a responsibility to reflect the population more? I mean, there’s been pretty strong pushback to Antoinette’s research, or the group’s research, today – news directors from the commercial networks saying it’s faulty research, it ignores the work of people like Brooke Boney on the Today program, and that they are making advances. Where do you sit on this?

MICHELLE ROWLAND, SHADOW MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS

Well, the media has an absolutely vital role to play in terms of reflecting our character, our culture and our identity. And that’s not just me saying that. That is actually the law saying that. That is one of the objects of the Broadcasting Services Act. And whilst technology may change and while society may evolve, that principle remains very much constant.

And I must say, for our guest here, I say in all sincerity, I have absolute confidence that you are going to achieve your dreams. You’re one of those people whom I have the absolute privilege to visit when I’m able to go to schools in my electorate in Western Sydney, who tell me what they want to do. They are articulate and they are driven. And I have no doubt that you are going to achieve your ambitions. And also, I think...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But just on... I mean, this is all lovely and very positive in terms of the reinforcing message. The director of news at the Seven Network, Craig McPherson, responded to all of this data today, saying that the reason they don’t have more diversity is that these people are not applying.

ZIGGY RAMO, HIP-HOP ARTIST

Well, sorry to jump in, but I think what is so interesting about that... So, from an Indigenous male, right, I have as likely of a chance of being incarcerated than I do from finishing high school. So, if these networks are putting money into university scholarships, and that’s the avenue in which we’re going to be represented within the media, but half of us are being locked up, then how is that going to support cultural diversity? How is that actually building infrastructure that’s going to give you a platform, when the systems in which we are to be able to achieve that platform, we’re not even represented within? You know? And I think what’s really interesting about what Channel Nine said about Brooke, for example, she’s one of four on this show, right? If she...

HAMISH MACDONALD

On the Today show.

ZIGGY RAMO

On the Today show. If she is one of four, she can only speak on her lived experience. So, she can’t represent all minorities. So, having one is not cultural diversity. And then, on top of that, is it cultural diversity, or is it performative cultural diversity? Because, for example, on this show today, the song that I’m going to perform is called Stand For Something. The song I initially was going to perform was called April 25th, and this is a song that I was not allowed to perform. Like, I was basically censored in the fact that the ABC said that it was not appropriate. So, is it performative? Because me sitting on this panel ticks off a box for the ABC that is cultural diversity, but if I’m not able to express my perspective, is it performative or is it actual culture diversity? Because, as Barnaby said, it’s important that we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression. So, if we have seats at the table, but then we’re not able to express our lived experience, are we actually having cultural diversity, or is it performative?

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, I have to go in to bat for the ABC here. It all... I imagine when you say April 25th, we’re... What, are we looking at Anzac Day or something like that?

ZIGGY RAMO

Mm-hm.

BARNABY JOYCE

Well... Yeah... Look... I don’t know...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Just to be clear, I think it’s worth shedding a little bit of light on this. The lyrics include the line, “I hate the Anzacs.” It’s repeated. And there’s a lot of context, which we did want to talk to you...

ZIGGY RAMO

Mm-hm.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..about tonight, to understand where that comes from. But without context, there may be issues, so... (STAMMERS)

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, look, I’d... (STAMMERS) I’d never thought I’d do this – defend the ABC – but here goes. You’ve got to be careful what you say. You go to a point where you insult people. What about... I could talk Indigenous people where I grew up, when I was out St George, Lenny Waters, and these...there are so many Indigenous people who are part of the RSL movement...

ZIGGY RAMO

Mm-hm.

BARNABY JOYCE

..and what are you saying to them?

ZIGGY RAMO

Yeah...

BARNABY JOYCE

You know? How does that work? What do you say to all the people who are members of Norforce? What are you saying to them? You don’t respect them?

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think it’s worth letting Ziggy explain what he was saying, and what the lyrics do refer to.

ZIGGY RAMO

So, my song April 25th comes from an academic theory, which is the black armband view of history. So, the whole point of the song, April 25th – and this was the issue that I had with the censorship – is that in this song, I say, I hate black culture. I say, I hope black people die. I say, I hope that we tear down Indigenous culture. I say that about 20 times, right? And the whole reason of comparing Indigenous Australia and April 25th is the fact that...

So I, myself, have gone to Belgium when I was 17. I went to the Scots College for my last three years, on academic scholarship. And Dr Aspinall, he is the principal and the founder of the Scots College, right, and his son, Robert Aspinall, died in service in World War I. So I had the privilege to go there, right, and celebrate and understand the sacrifice that people have laid down for this country.

So the whole point of a song about April 25 is saying that I’ve seen this country recognise the sacrifices that have been made so that we could all sit here today. So if I’ve seen us be able to do that, for our non-Indigenous people and our Indigenous people, like you said, who fought in these wars, in 1945, that the ABC is commemorating 75 years since the end of World War II, yet in 1945, Indigenous Australians weren’t even classed as citizens. My father was born before ‘67. So my father wasn’t even classed as a citizen when he was born. So the whole point of a song about April 25... And as soon as I say...after I say, “I hate the Anzacs,” I say, “How wrong is that? How wrong is that? We pick and choose our history, we rearrange the facts.” We fought for a country that didn’t see us as humans. We weren’t seen as humans in our own country.

So the reason why I wanted to talk about this and in my art is that I want to celebrate the Anzacs, and I do celebrate the Anzacs. I’ve gone to the other side of the world on Anzac Day to celebrate what our people have laid down for us. So, if we’ve done that, we can’t just pick parts of our history that we want to recognise and bury the others. If, in World War II, we fought against genocide, yet we don’t recognise the genocide in our own country, that’s a double standard.

So the whole reason why the song says, “I hate the Anzacs,” is to demonstrate that, how outrageous is that? So if we can recognise how outrageous that is, why can’t we recognise that on January 26? Why can’t we recognise that, when we asked to rage...raise the age from 10 because 600 kids last year were locked up, right? And we’re 2% of the population. We make up 65% of those kids incarcerated. That’s 349. So if we can’t recognise it, then... Like, do we not understand hypocrisy?

HAMISH MACDONALD

And just to be clear, we did invite you on to explain all of that context and explain the reasons behind your lyrics, so I just think that needs...that point needs to be made clear. Our next question tonight is from Bala Sugavanam.

BALA SUGAVANAM

Thanks, Hamish. As a brown Australian, and a Tamil born in Chennai, India, where Kamala Harris’s mum was from, I was horrified to see the racist cartoon suggesting racist tokenism published in The Australian. It was even more disappointing to see the editor-in-chief defending it. On the surface level, it might seem like the lack of diversity in the Australian mainstream media is a problem, but isn’t it more deep-rooted and complex than just that?

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, we’re just looking at that image now. I’m interested to hear your response, Bala, because the editor of The Australian said the intention of the commentary in the cartoon was, in fact, to ridicule racism, not perpetuate it. Did you...do you not find that plausible?

BALA SUGAVANAM

I think when it says that “little brown girls”, that it was taken out of context and it’s sort of, like, you know, it’s reductionist, and it says...it perpetuates the same message that when a person of colour, when they...they’re successful, when they achieve something, it’s not seen as based on merit, it’s seen as, you know, based on tokenism.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, just to be clear, in your view, the cartoon was racist?

BALA SUGAVANAM

Yep.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Niki Savva?

NIKI SAVVA, COLUMNIST AND AUTHOR

Look, I... That cartoon was based on something that Joe Biden had said. And he made the remark about little black girls and brown girls. And I have to say that when I heard him say that, I cringed. I think Kamala Harris is an outstanding candidate, and for so many reasons. She’s smart. She’s tough. She’s accomplished. And, you know, she, I think would make a brilliant Vice President. But the things that we should be focusing on are those characteristics, not the other things that, you know, people keep referring to, like gender, like race, like religion, like age. All of that. So I thought that Biden had a poor choice of words there. I don’t think he should have said that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, to be fair...

NIKI SAVVA

I think he should have said...he should have said...

HAMISH MACDONALD

..he didn’t...he didn’t describe her that way.

NIKI SAVVA

..that he had chosen the best candidate that he could find for the job, and that was enough.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

I have to disagree.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, Niki Savva, just to be clear, he wasn’t describing Kamala Harris that way. He referred to...to young women that might be inspired to become a president or vice president because of her. Isn’t it stretching reality somewhat to say that he described her that way?

NIKI SAVVA

He... The...the cartoon was a sledge against Biden. It was not a sledge against Kamala Harris.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

I would say it was a sledge against both.

NIKI SAVVA

That’s how I saw it. When...when I saw that cartoon, that’s how I took it – that he was having a go at Biden.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Did you take it that way, Antoinette?

NIKI SAVVA

And like I say, when I heard Biden say it, I cringed.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

I don’t believe... I think it was a swipe at both. I don’t think the “little brown girls...” He wasn’t using that to describe his running mate. He was using that to talk about the historic appointment, and the fact that that will lead to little brown girls, little black girls going, “I can do that,” ‘cause you...you can’t be what you can’t see.

And I know, for example, when I...when I was growing up and if I saw anybody diverse on television, that to me made me think, “I can do that. Perhaps there’s a way.” And so, if we’re talking about context, the context was a stretch. I don’t believe he was using the same words, or using Biden’s words. And I think it diminished Harris as a running mate. I think it re...it reduced her. I mean, I don’t think it’s the most racist thing to come out of News Corp cartoons, but I think the doubling down of the editor-in-chief and sending a memo to all staff, rather than reflecting, this is where...

And to your point, is this just about lack of diversity? No, but I think there’s a component. Had there been more diverse people in that team, in that editorial leadership team, the conversation and reflection, I think, would have been different. I’m not saying, “Bring down the cartoon.” I’m not saying, “Stifle satire and don’t push boundaries.” But I reckon there would be more reflection if it wasn’t four white blokes going, “Hey, John, what do you think?” “Oh, I don’t think it was racist.” “Peter, what do you think? And Michael and Andrew?” “Oh, we all agree. We all agree.” “Ah, so it’s just fine.”

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby?

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, Look, I...I don’t know. Look, there’s a special place for cartoons. I’m sure that The Guardian has absolutely smashed Trump at times. I’m sure CNN has absolutely smashed Trump at times. I’m sure the Fairfax Media have give... You could bring out umpteen cartoons which would take certain traits...

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

But is there a place for racism?

BARNABY JOYCE

..of a person on the other side of the political field. Now, my view on the presidential race, if you haven’t got a job, you should apply for President of the United States, ‘cause that job’s vacant. But, you know, I’m absolutely certain, if Colin Powell stood, people would go, “Hooray, there we go.”

HAMISH MACDONALD

Michelle Rowland, do you find that cartoon racist?

MICHELLE ROWLAND

I do, and I think the fact that the editor needed to explain it...

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Yeah.

MICHELLE ROWLAND

..in such a way, almost like, “We had to be racist in order to expose racism,” I think, says it all. But also, I represent a community where half of my local residents were born overseas. And the vast majority of those born overseas are from the Subcontinent. And I don’t need talking points or, you know, anyone else telling me what to think on this, because I’ve actually received feedback from my own community. When that sort of language is said in that context, it’s saying that about people’s sisters, their daughters, their mothers. And your point...the point to merit is correct. Like, it actually doesn’t speak to the merit of someone who could very well be the 2IC to the leader of the free world.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

And Hamish…

BARNABY JOYCE

Could be the...could be the boss.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Michelle, can I add, I’ve spoken to a lot of people, a lot of people of colour, and I’ve had mixed feedback as to whether they found it racist or not. But I would put to The Australian, and to the editor-of-chief, is that when they say, “Context is everything,” well, I say context within The Australian in the context of Black Lives Matter matters, because I feel that the publication did its best to try and link the Victorian cluster to Black Lives Matter, even when the health authorities and the facts said the opposite, clearly. So, just a couple of weeks later, that cartoon being placed in a publication, for me, that...that context matters. And I think that’s also why so many people took issue with it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, our next question tonight is a video from Robert Cananzi in Essendon, Victoria.

ROBERT CANANZI, ESSENDON, VIC

Hi. I’m Robert and I’m a Year 12 student in Melbourne. My question for the panel is, as somebody who is exposed to numerous online forms of media every day, I see journalists fight for their viewership through having the most groundbreaking article or catchy title. So I wonder where the line will be drawn between the right to know and invasion of privacy. Moreover, who arbitrates as to what is in the public interest to report on, and what prevents journalists from chasing a profit under the guise of the public interest?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Niki Savva?

NIKI SAVVA

Well, it’s a very fine line at times, isn’t it, between the public’s right to know and a person’s right to privacy. And I think judgements have to be made almost every day on these issues. And sometimes the media gets it wrong and other times it doesn’t, you know? People do have the right to know...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Who holds the media to account...who holds the media to account when they do get it wrong? Is there any accountability?

NIKI SAVVA

Well... Of course there is accountability. We have law courts, we have shows on the ABC that hold all sorts of outlets to account. Our readership also. I mean, newspapers and TV and whoever relies on credibility, right? Credibility and trust. So, if their readership believes that they’re telling them things that they need to know, and telling them in a fair way and an accurate way, then of course they will respond to that. And they will respond also if they think that they’ve been misled by an organisation.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby Joyce?

NIKI SAVVA

So it’s all about accountability.

BARNABY JOYCE

I don’t...I don’t agree with you, Niki. Look, I think that it’s quite easy to draw the line, Niki. If a person is in the public view that is paid for a job where they’re in the public.... You’re in the public, you’re paid for a job. I’m in the public, I’m paid for a job. But if a person is a private individual that is not paid, then they’re not...it is not in the public interest. And it’s all very well to say, “Oh, it’s a fine line.” It’s not. It’s to sell a paper, Niki. Be straight. And, you know... And people bend that line and say, “Oh, you can take them to court.” No-one’s got pockets bigger than Murdoch. You’re not going to take him to court for defamation. He’ll keep you in court forever. He’s... It’s...

NIKI SAVVA

Well, I think we’ve had quite a few defamation cases lately, actually, where that’s...

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Unless you’re really aff...unless you’re really affluent...

BARNABY JOYCE

You’re not gonna... It’s ridiculous.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

..defamation generally, those who are more litigious are politicians, people with deep pockets. So for the...the average Australian, defamation often...often isn’t an avenue, just because it’s too costly.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yep. That’s correct.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I know...

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Barnaby, I didn’t think we’d agree so much tonight. (LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

Niki, I know you’re trying to respond.

NIKI SAVVA

No. That...that’s fine. Look, my...my sphere is politics, right? And we have fights all the time between politicians and media about what should and shouldn’t be published when it comes to politicians and their private lives. And I think Barnaby is maybe taking this a little bit personally.

BARNABY JOYCE

I’m not, Niki. I’m just...I’m just saying the bleeding obvious. I’m a public figure. Go... Absolutely go after me. You’re...you’re allowed to do that. He’s a public figure and, Niki, you’re a public figure. But if you are just a private individual who’s not actually paid for a public job and you think you can flog a newspaper by sticking them on the front page, well, you’re having yourself on if you say, “Oh, I’m...I’m...I’m more righteous than others.” I mean, that...just call it for what it is, and that’s fair enough. And, you know, I’m going to call it out because I don’t care – that’s all in the past, what happened to me. But I don’t want that to happen to somebody in the future. I think...I think it’s a fair call.

NIKI SAVVA

Well...I don’t know what...what...

BARNABY JOYCE

And it’s not...and it’s not about me, it’s about...it’s about a private individual walking across the road. You take a photo of a pregnant woman walking across a road, put it on the front page and give yourself a Walkley. I mean, come on.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think we probably just need to explain, for the audience that hasn’t followed every detail of all of this, you’re speaking from personal experience here.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Your partner was photographed and placed on the front page of a tabloid newspaper.

Do you think, Michelle Rowland, that Barnaby Joyce has a right to be angry, frustrated, upset, even out for this publication, given what they did?

MICHELLE ROWLAND

No, I can completely understand, actually, where Barnaby’s coming from. And I mean, I’m in the public eye as well, but I put myself out there, and the fact is that media scrutiny is the price that I pay for being a politician and serving a democracy, and that’s a price that I’m willing to pay. In other cases, though, let’s be very clear, also, politicians always want to look like real people. And we need the media, as well, for ourselves. And there are times when we do seek out the media in order to let people know we are actually human, that we do share similar stories.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But also, you perhaps use families in photo opportunities, or...

MICHELLE ROWLAND

Many people do, and I’ve done that, but I have certain rules about the extent to which I did. And I’ll give you a very personal example. I’ve gone through a recent wellness transformation, if you can call it that, and I was...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Come on, boast to the...boast about it, because it is pretty remarkable.

MICHELLE ROWLAND

(LAUGHS) Oh, well, Barnaby didn’t recognise me when he walked in.

BARNABY JOYCE

No, I didn’t.

MICHELLE ROWLAND

But, you know, it took a long time, but I managed to significantly turn my health, my life around and become much fitter. And I decided I would tell my story to Annika Smethurst. And at first, I was very unsure about it, because whilst politicians... You know, a lot of politicians are very cautious about how they come across – they don’t want to look silly. And of course, I didn’t want that to happen to me either, but I did feel comfortable after chatting to her about it, that, you know, we are living in really depressing times, and this might actually give some people a bit of hope for what they can do, because, look, if I can do it, anyone can do it. You know, that was my whole thing about the whole article.

But, you know, once upon a time, privacy was the right to be left alone. Privacy cases were primarily that of...they were in tort. They were about lights in people’s backyards shining onto other people’s verandas. These days, it’s something extremely different. And when we talk about privacy, we are talking about data collection, but we are also are talking about exposing individuals. And it is a sad reality that, in the last couple of years, we’ve had a recommendation for a tort of a serious invasion of privacy. We’ve had the ACCC reaffirm that that’s been called for, but nothing has happened. So, until that happens... And, you know, who knows whether that could have been argued in that case? But it certainly – at least, I’m guessing from your viewpoint, Barnaby – could have given a better avenue...

BARNABY JOYCE

I…I definitely would support a tort of privacy. And just to reaffirm, because I know they’ll be out there in the Twitterati, it’s not about me – I’m a public figure. I put myself out as a public figure. You put yourself out as a public figure. You do, you do, you do now – you’re on this show. But if I went after your partner, or you had a partner and I just decided that that was a good yarn, I think that person has a right to a tort of privacy.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby, you had campaigned on family values.

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, go after me. Go after me. Go after me. That’s the difference, Hamish.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But didn’t that tell us a different story about those values?

BARNABY JOYCE

That’s... You go after me on that. You don’t... If you’ve got a partner... I don’t know who it is, right? But if I put your partner...

HAMISH MACDONALD

He’s great. You’d love him. (LAUGHS)

BARNABY JOYCE

OK, if I put your partner on the front page just because it’s your partner, is that fair on him?

HAMISH MACDONALD

No.

BARNABY JOYCE

Of course. Thank you.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Let’s take our next question. It’s from Rita Jabri-Markwell, from the Australian Muslim Advocacy Network.

RITA JABRI-MARKWELL, BRISBANE, QLD

In a week’s time, the Australian terrorist who murdered 51 New Zealand Muslim men, women and children will face sentencing. Australian research has shown that anti-Islam conspiracy theories, portraying Muslims as a subhuman, incompatible, existential threat to society, are now really common online, and have been for many years, and that it is a major gateway to right-wing extremism. This disinformation is often carried out by malicious third-party websites and amplified through social media platforms. We’re really pleased the Australian government has announced a disinformation code, that it’s doing one with the tech industry. However, we would like to ask whether that code will focus on this particular type of harm, and if it doesn’t work, what should the Australian government do further to protect Australia from the public harm of disinformation?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ziggy?

ZIGGY RAMO

It’s a really, I think, interesting question because, you know, everything that we’re talking about... Like, within representation within media, and mainstream media, when I was growing up, I didn’t see people like me in these spaces. So, you know, during my life, because I’m 25 now – pretty big life – but the social media has been a way for me to be able to go to the primary source of marginalised communities, and get representation from the primary source. So, I think it’s such a delicate balance between wanting to allow these...like, myself, as a marginalised community, to be able to share my story and my information in a space when I’m not often being represented in marginalised communities, but then, also, still having correct protocols to govern and to...to stamp out this misinformation.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But haven’t these social media companies proved that they are incapable of actually doing that?

ZIGGY RAMO

Well, I think that...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Because they opened it up, everything is there.

ZIGGY RAMO

Yeah, and I think that’s these next steps in what is really important in demonstrating that, yes, you are a free market, in the sense that you’re on the internet, but there still has to be protocols that are governed, because if we are having... Just because it’s on the internet, it doesn’t mean we’ve lost all forms of society.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Antoinette?

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Look, I think Trump has succeeded in one way. While he hasn’t succeeded in navigating his country through this pandemic, he’s succeeded in really undermining mainstream media and the credibility of mainstream media. And for some outlets, or some journalists, that criticism may be fair-go. A lot of people are relying on other sources online. Anybody with a camera who can sit behind a desk, and with an editing app is putting things together, and we saw that during... You know, we’ve seen that really escalating during COVID-19. So, misinformation is one thing – sharing something you haven’t fact-checked – but the orchestrated disinformation is incredibly dangerous, and it’s growing. And the tech companies aren’t keeping up with the flow of information.

And I see, otherwise, you know, intelligent, reasonable, nice people believing this stuff – this hurtful, divisive stuff – and sharing it. And just as a journo – you know, I’ve been a reporter on the road for several years – never have I copped so much abuse from randoms, just for being the media. I’m not doing anything – I’m just standing there. “Fake news.” And, you know, “Defund the media!” And, “Blah, blah, blah.” There’s so much hate and animosity towards the media, and that makes those...these disinformation networks that are really sophisticated a really dangerous but attractive alternative.

BARNABY JOYCE

Antoinette, we’ve got to try and almost give kids a course that Twitter...

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Yes! Media literacy.

BARNABY JOYCE

..Twitter is the ambit scratchings on the back of a lavatory wall.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

(LAUGHS)

BARNABY JOYCE

It’s not...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think you might need to give kids a lesson on what that means, to be fair.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

(LAUGHS) Yeah. I need a lesson on what that means.

BARNABY JOYCE

You know, it’s...it’s not...it’s not media. But, you know, if you want the most vile rubbish about you, then Twitter is the place to go. You know, I think I’ve got about 100,000 followers on Twitter, or something like that – I don’t know – and about 99.9% hate my guts.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

OK.

BARNABY JOYCE

And...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, why are you there?

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, I don’t read it. Most of my staff do that stuff, so...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Oh, right.

BARNABY JOYCE

To get basic messages out. But what Twitter and Facebook and Google are doing is they’re absolutely wrecking the other media stables because they’re dragging all their advertising revenue off them.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Mm, agreed.

BARNABY JOYCE

And they don’t have a bureau in Canberra, and they don’t have regional newspapers, but they do take the advertising revenue. I think Google, basically, wandered off to Singapore with about $4.8 billion worth of cash. They paid $100 million in tax. Whoopee-doo.

ZIGGY RAMO

Mm.

BARNABY JOYCE

I bet you they made more than that. And in the meantime, all your newspapers are going broke in regional areas.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. I want to talk about this more, but I want to introduce someone else to the conversation right now. Sinead Boucher is in Wellington. She’s the CEO of a New Zealand media business. It’s called Stuff. Now, Sinead was an executive at the company when the Australian media group Nine Entertainment was trying to offload it. She paid one Kiwi dollar, and is now the CEO of one of New Zealand’s biggest media organisations.

Sinead, welcome to the program.

SINEAD BOUCHER, CEO, STUFF LTD

Good evening, Hamish. It’s nice to be here.

HAMISH MACDONALD

How did that moment shape the way your business, and you particularly, see the social media platforms?

SINEAD BOUCHER

Well, obviously, that day in March, last year, in Christchurch, was one of the worst days in New Zealand history. Something we absolutely couldn’t believe happened on our shores. And for our media business, I think the fact that that massacre was livestreamed on Facebook was one of the more shocking elements of the day. And it made us really assess our own relationship with Facebook, a platform that didn’t seem to be too concerned about really putting its efforts into stamping out this kind of behaviour. I think the reality is, if that happened again this week, the same sort of thing could be livestreamed again.

So, we made the decision then to not advertise or pay Facebook for any services at all, back then, because we didn’t want to be part of the problem by funding a platform that allowed that sort of content to be streamed. And that started, actually, what’s sort of been a year-long process of us reassessing our whole relationship with the platforms, particularly Facebook, which culminated, about six weeks ago, with us withdrawing our content from Facebook altogether. So, we don’t post anything there now.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’re really being portrayed as this sort of tiny media business in the far corners of the Earth that’s taking on the tech giants. Is that actually what you’re doing?

SINEAD BOUCHER

Well, we don’t see it as taking on the tech giants. What we do is see it as doing something that is true to the values we have as a company, and the things that we want people to believe of us. So, we have set growth in public trust as the most important metric for us as a company, and we just felt that being part of a platform that allowed the livestreaming of massacre, that allowed the spread of conspiracies, you know, fake news, hate speech, was just not compatible with what we wanted to achieve.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I do want to sort of point out, though, that if you... Any of these companies, they will all point to their improvements in policies, the actions they are taking to actually stamp some of this stuff out. Are you saying that, ultimately, you just don’t believe them?

SINEAD BOUCHER

Yeah, I guess that is what I’m saying, because I haven’t seen any real evidence of mass change or a strong will to change. There’s been lots of tinkering around the edges, the odd program here and there. But, you know, look at what’s been happening, even in the last sort of month or two – the spread of the COVID conspiracies, the rise of the hate speech around, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement. There isn’t really any significant change now than there would have been a year ago. So, I don’t think enough has been done. I don’t really think there is the will there to make the change.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question tonight comes from Andy Leach, in Marrickville, New South Wales.

ANDY LEACH, MARRICKVILLE, NSW

There are multiple examples of big tech companies altering their algorithms, lowering the reach of content, and having a devastating effect on other media outlets. What is to stop the big tech companies doing the same when the government brings in this new code? Essentially, instead of paying big media companies for their content, the tech firms just alter the algorithm, and in turn, lower the reach of the media content, killing off online-media ad revenue.

HAMISH MACDONALD

This is the point that the tech giants are making now, that they actually help your business, or did when you associated with them.

SINEAD BOUCHER

We have had a drop of audience. We were expecting that, but it’s been in the low single digits, and, you know, hardly any page impressions have dropped at all.

HAMISH MACDONALD

A web question we’ve received tonight points to Google releasing an open letter today, warning Australians that the way they use Google is at risk as a result of the news media bargaining code that we’re talking about. “Why should large…?” This is the question – “Why should large news agencies be protected over and above Google when there’s such a high concentration of private ownership for news in some questionable hands?”

SINEAD BOUCHER

Yeah, look, I think I’ve seen some of the comments that were related…released by Google today. I think, you know, ultimately, the value that the journalism produced by companies like our own in New Zealand, or our former owners, Nine News Limited, adds enormously to the business models and the experience that Google gives its customers, its readers, anyone using its products, the same for Facebook, etc. It’s hard to see an argument where Google is somehow…you know, its business model was at risk by the fact that they might have to pay for some of the content, or that reflects the value that that content has given their business models over the last sort of 10 years.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sinead Boucher, it’s been delightful talking to you tonight. And some unique insights from across the ditch. Thank you.

SINEAD BOUCHER

Thank you.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright, let’s take our next question tonight. It’s a video from David Foster in Tamworth, New South Wales.

DAVID FOSTER, TAMWORTH, NSW

Mr Joyce, you’re my local member. I’m a member of the Tamworth community. And I’d like to know that you thought whether it might be possible to set up a virtual border around our region to protect our communities against the COVID-19 threat. This idea is no longer implausible. There are already communities within and outside major cities which are coming up with plans to isolate their towns and suburbs from the threat of the virus.

Visitors and passers-by travelling from the many hotspots in Sydney and Victoria use the New England Highway. It’s a thoroughfare for anybody passing through on their way to Brisbane or returning from Brisbane to Sydney. Tamworth is a very popular stopover. Do you have any ideas which could be implemented?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright, before we go to Barnaby Joyce, Niki Savva, is this border issue getting away from the government a little bit now?

NIKI SAVVA

Well, we’re breaking down into fiefdoms. We’re no longer one country, we’re a whole collection of, you know, separate states and separate areas within those states. And I can understand the fear of people in the present environment, but I don’t see how that is going to help us deal with this problem in the longer term.

If everybody breaks down into little segregated communities, I think that’s a very dangerous and worrying development. And I think the Prime Minister needs to take a much greater hand in this, and he just seems to be a bit powerless at the moment. None of the premiers are listening to him on reopening borders. People are wanting the borders to stay closed. While the premiers think that they’ve got the voters on side, they’re not going to open up. It’s just, I think, isolationist, and also a bit insulting.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But isn’t it protecting some lives? I mean, if you’re on the border with Victoria, wouldn’t you say that those border closures currently are doing a lot for you, and probably for your business?

NIKI SAVVA

Well, to an extent, yes. But, say, in the ACT, we have no community transmission. We haven’t had a case for weeks and weeks, and yet Annastacia Palaszczuk, because it’s a popular thing, says no-one from Canberra can go to Queensland. OK, fine. Some of us don’t want to go there. But I just think it’s a populist measure by some of the premiers to enhance their standing in the lead-up to their elections. And I think they’ve just gone over the top.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Barnaby, this was a question for you.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, I think states in their current form are way past their use-by date. They were probably relevant in 1901, but there’s no way that North Queensland feels any affection towards Brisbane, or Central Queensland does. New England wanted its own state in 1967. I think it’s brought to light a bigger issue, and the bigger issue is that you hear everybody, but no-one wants to say it, because state politicians support state governments, and state bureaucrats do...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Well, the premiers are popular at the moment.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, because they’re a necessity, ‘cause you’ve got states. I think that Australia has developed now into a vastly bigger place, and greater representation in those specific regional areas should be allowed to be given. That’s why I suggested regional senators to try and give some voice to it, but...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, what about David’s idea?

BARNABY JOYCE

Look, it’s a balancing act. First of all, there’s no capacity for that to happen, because we’re run from Sydney, which people in New England don’t like. And the second thing is, you’ve got to balance it off with tanking your economy. I think one of the big issues for Australia going forward is how on earth we repay this debt that we are mounting up. It is exponentially growing, as I said it would back in 2010. And whether we’re in government or the Labor Party are in government, the biggest issue in the future will be how on earth do we start paying this back. So, you’ve got to be careful.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Borders – your view, Michelle?

MICHELLE ROWLAND

Well, I think we should always take our advice from the medical officers in charge, and my understanding is that that is what the premiers and chief ministers have been doing. And I think the fact that Queensland and WA have seen what I understand to be a downward, or a flattened, at least, trend does demonstrate that the actions that they’ve taken – and in South Australia as well – the actions, you know, that have been taken by various states have in fact worked.

And I also think that, you know, it is incumbent on premiers and chief ministers... I mean, we’ve heard a lot about this National Cabinet. I think it’s incumbent on them, but it’s also incumbent on the Prime Minister to respect those views. And whilst I take Niki’s point that, you know, a lot of this is political, there are some tweets that will not age well, Hamish, about the actions that some of these premiers and chief ministers have done, because they have done quite an effective job.

In the meantime, you know, my personal view is that, in New South Wales, we should be wearing masks as much as possible. I was walking down the main street of Blacktown today. A week ago, nearly everyone had a mask on. Today, very few people. So, I don’t know what has changed in people’s psyche. Maybe they think that this is getting under control. Yes, Western Sydney is a big place, but there have been some really terrible clusters that have spread very quickly from specific spots, and that is what is worrying me.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ziggy, just to the borders question. I mean, for an artist who would normally, I assume, travel around the country all the time performing, do you have a view as to whether you think the borders are right to be closed?

ZIGGY RAMO

Yeah. Like, for me, I’m an artist, but first and foremost, like, I always say I never want to be a better artist than I am a better person. And at a time where we are in a pandemic – like, this is very serious, this isn’t something to be taken lightly – I think it’s very easy to be reactionary, and, you know, being angry and frustrated is totally understandable, but it’s hard to know what is the right thing to do in this specific moment, because...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But it looks different if you’re in Queensland than if you’re in the ACT, where Niki is, doesn’t it?

ZIGGY RAMO

Exactly. ‘Cause you look at even outside of Australia, how different countries have handled this. For example, Sweden has been going with herd immunity, and there’s been critiques of is that the correct way, or is the way that we’re doing it more correct, going into a lockdown. And I think it’s hard to say, because we don’t have hindsight. We’re living in it right now.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you like the Sweden approach?

ZIGGY RAMO

I think it’s interesting. And again, it’s hard to say, right? Because we are living it right now. I think for me, obviously for the music industry, it is decimating it, and artists are feeling the impact of that. But personally I see my responsibility as someone who will survive this. If I get it, I’m not that susceptible and vulnerable. However, we do have vulnerable people within our community.

So, if you have the privilege – and I’m talking about you can stay inside, you have a roof to stay inside, you have running water to stay inside, you have access to food – then I think we have an obligation to exercise our means to do that. In saying that, I do think we do have to look at a bigger picture of, yes, there are these deaths that are going to be attributed to COVID, but what is further reaching than that?

The rates of domestic violence and women who will be vulnerable because of these lockdowns. The rates of kids who are going to fall through the gaps of the education system. So, knowing what is the exact right course is, obviously, tricky. And just within Australia, within the states, you’ve seen different reactions, and I think we have to be on the same page, in a sense. Like, this is about us coming together as a country.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright, let’s take our next question. It’s a video from Alex Robinson in Armadale, Victoria.

ALEX ROBINSON, ARMADALE, VIC

My question is to Barnaby Joyce. When you were the special drought envoy, you claimed to have sent an awful lot of reports to the PM. When asked for more information about this, you claimed you sent reports of the drought to the Prime Minister via text message. When asked to release these reports, your government refused. This is just one example of your Coalition government not being truthful nor transparent with the Australian people. My question is, do you think Australians deserve better than this?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s deal with some of the points made there. Did you send the reports via text? Is that what happened?

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, I’ve sent them in a range of ways. In actual written reports, and in texts. And I was in continual contact with the Prime Minister. And the reason I said that is people said, “Oh, you haven’t sent a report.” As you know, I talk pretty direct.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Yes.

BARNABY JOYCE

And maybe some people didn’t want to read the directness without it all being redacted. I don’t pull a punch when I’m trying to get issues through, and, you know, that’s... My correspondence is to the Prime Minister. It was directly to the Prime Minister. If the Prime Minister, like any other letter, decides that he doesn’t want to put it out, or have it into the public forum, then that’s his right. But I was just telling people the truth. I was talking direct because I believe in that circumstances it’s what the Prime Minister needed to hear.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Michelle, should this sort of thing be made public? Do we have a right to know what Barnaby did as the drought envoy?

MICHELLE ROWLAND

I would love to read what Barnaby did as the drought envoy.

BARNABY JOYCE

I bet you would. (LAUGHS)

MICHELLE ROWLAND

And I think this goes to a bigger issue of transparency. I think, particularly at a time when, you know, parliament is not meeting as regularly as we usually do, we’ve also seen this government use really new tactics in order to avoid transparency in a number of ways. And just to give you some examples – you know, it is increasingly apparent that, in the Senate estimates process, in some of the committee processes, the government is relying on either public interest immunity or other reasons to deny FOIs out of that.

And I realise that this is not something that solely happens with THIS government, but it is certainly one that’s being exacerbated, and I’ve seen that over the last couple of years. I think that it’s very clear that the Right to Know coalition has better access to freedom of information requests on its list of things to do.

But I think the Australian public demands and expects that there is that transparency. You know, just as we talk about the fourth estate having an important role to hold governments to account, we also have processes that are supposed to be holding governments to account too.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Niki Savva, should we, as the public, know what Barnaby did in that role?

NIKI SAVVA

Look, I think, the more that we know about what government does and how government comes to its decisions, the better off we’ll all be. They do need to be more accountable. They do need to be more transparent. And the only way, really, that we can avoid mistakes being made or mistakes being perpetuated is if we know more about how decisions are made, and I think they should be more open and they should be more up-front with Australians about how they come to decisions.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’re shaking your head, Barnaby.

BARNABY JOYCE

And that’s not going to happen.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But why?

BARNABY JOYCE

What you’re asking for is government by Zoom conference, like where everybody can...

NIKI SAVVA

No, no, no! No.

BARNABY JOYCE

If, every time, I write a letter, I think someone else is going to read it, guess what – I’m going to stop writing you letters!

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

He’s gonna send it on WhatsApp.

BARNABY JOYCE

Yeah, I’m just going to send it on Signal.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Encrypted.

BARNABY JOYCE

I’ll send it on WhatsApp. I’ll send it on telegraph. But I’m not going to send them a letter.

HAMISH MACDONALD

To be fair, though, earlier on in the program, you were sort of talking about privacy and the fact, as a public figure...

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, that’s privacy.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..you were fair game, that we should ask as much as we want, we should know as much as we want.

BARNABY JOYCE

But we’re living in a mythical world if we think that every piece of correspondence in the government is going to be up for public discussion, because you’re going to and fro. If it’s going to be honest and succinct, that’s the way you’re going to do it...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But there was no final report deliverable as part of this role.

BARNABY JOYCE

There absolutely are reports. I’m trying to work out if the final one was public, but I know that there was times I wrote pages within a report about exactly what was going on. But if everything you’re suggesting in government is going to be there for public...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But this isn’t everything. This is just a few specific things.

NIKI SAVVA

We’re not suggesting everything.

BARNABY JOYCE

OK. Well, you agree with me.

NIKI SAVVA

We’re not suggesting everything. Obviously, there are some discussions...

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, which ones?

NIKI SAVVA

..and some papers that need to remain secret...

BARNABY JOYCE

Thank you.

NIKI SAVVA

..that involve national security.

BARNABY JOYCE

We agree on that.

NIKI SAVVA

We’re talking about drought funding. We’re talking about droughts. We’re not talking about terrorism.

BARNABY JOYCE

Well, if I’m going to have a direct conversation and an honest conversation, but alternatively, I think it’s going to be read, I’m going to sanitise it, or more to the point, I’m going to pick up the phone and ring them.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Are you telling us your texts to the Prime Minister are a bit colourful?

NIKI SAVVA

Well, have a direct conversation with the Australian people as well.

BARNABY JOYCE

I don’t think that’s going to be surprising to anybody.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright, our next question is a video from Nick Coxon in North Melbourne.

NICK COXON, NORTH MELBOURNE, VIC

Where should the line be drawn in comedy between causing significant offence or hurt and fair game for harmless laughter? How should this be navigated?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Antoinette?

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Oh, look, this is a really interesting one, as somebody who grew up watching Eddie Murphy Delirious and all those things. And all the jokes that he makes then that I thought was hilarious as a, I don’t know, 13-year-old – however old I was – now that in this context, I can see how it’s incredibly inflammatory and offensive to some groups. I’m not particularly a fan of erasing history or cancelling Chris Lilley for things…or Fawlty Towers, or things that were produced in the past.

I think, you know, comedy needs to push boundaries. It always has. I think we can be critical of current content and I think we’re certainly in a different place in the use of the F-word and the N-word. And, you know, context matters. We learn from hindsight. Things that were once acceptable are no longer acceptable now. So, it’s interesting. We need comedians to make us kind of gasp and then laugh.

I think that’s an important role they play and we can’t sanitise too much, so I under... Yeah, so I guess my view, to summarise, would be don’t cancel the past – we can learn from it. Don’t punish people for a tweet they sent in 2007. But certainly, in this day and age, you know, the cultural, the political climate has changed, and politicians should tap into that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Michelle, are there things that should be cancelled, do you think, from the past?

MICHELLE ROWLAND

I’m not a fan of cancel culture either, but I also think this goes back to the answer I gave to the first question, which was media, including what we see in terms of comedy and what we see on our screens and what we hear, this is supposed to reflect Australian character, our culture and our identity, and it does change over time. You wouldn’t see Kingswood Country on TVs these days, so we certainly have evolved.

But I think we also need to respect that, you know, we have a pretty high bar in Australia when it comes to free speech, because we value our democracy. Yes, there are limits on it – there always have been – be they in defamation or codified in the law, but we do set quite a high bar, and I think the tolerance level of Australians, by and large, is actually quite high. And we do push boundaries, everyone from… If we’re talking comedy, everyone from Hannah Gadsby, you know, to people like Chris Lilley. So, I that think...

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

But I think there’s a place to be self-deprecating, and Aussies are quite good at that. I think when you’re emulating other cultures…

ZIGGY RAMO

Yeah.

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

..that’s when it can become quite problematic. If you are a sexually diverse person or a black person or an Arab talking about, you know, strict parents or Islam or whatever, poking fun, I think you’ve got more liberty there. If it’s somebody else poking fun at another group, I think that’s where you get into dangerous territory.

MICHELLE ROWLAND

I think that’s why Hannah Gadsby was so successful, because here was a person who identifies as she does...

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Exactly. Yes.

MICHELLE ROWLAND

..allowing herself to be so exposed in a comedic way at the same time. Australians are innovative, you know? Australians actually do push the envelope and boundaries.

HAMISH MACDONALD

We are going to have to wrap this up. I know you were trying to get in, Ziggy, so if you can make it brief...

ZIGGY RAMO

Yeah, well, what I was just going to say is I think it ties so much into what your report has found. Like, it says that if it’s not coming from the source, it’s going to be misrepresented. So, I think an example of, like, Chris Lilley – he’s making jokes about a lived experience he hasn’t had, so I think that’s where it falls short. So, in the same way that, in our media, we need cultural diversity so people can speak on their lived experience...

ANTOINETTE LATTOUF

Or make fun of their lived experience.

ZIGGY RAMO

Or make fun of their… I think it’s the same thing with comedy. Like, if you’ve lived that experience, you actually understand the nuance and the humour within that, rather than just the stereotype of that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. That’s all we’ve got time for tonight. Ziggy’s about to perform for us. That is your cue to go and get set up. Thanks to the rest of our panel: Barnaby Joyce, Michelle Rowland, Niki Savva and Antoinette Lattouf. Please put your hands together for them all.

BARNABY JOYCE

I’m gonna clap you, Michelle.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And thanks to those of you here and also at home for your questions tonight. Thanks for your company. Thanks to those of you streaming us on iview tonight as well. Now, over the next fortnight, we’ll bring you two special programs exploring both the young and the old. Next week, the young, who are bearing the brunt of this crisis. Then we’ll hear the wisdom of the years with a panel of respected elders. To take us out tonight, though, here’s Ziggy Ramo and his band performing Stand For Something.

ZIGGY RAMO

# You can feel my rage, yeah, I’m red-hot

# You either get my point or you get point-blank shot

# I ain’t forgot you see black lives as nuisance

# Broke your own laws, suspended constitutions

# I’m fuelled by hate, strapped up, ready for war

# But Mamma told me love’s the only thing worth fighting for

# But I ain’t felt hope in a long time

# Black lives ain’t meant nothing in a long time

# So I’m all up on your face

# On your palate, how it taste?

# Will it take another life to go to waste

# Before you get up to date

# With the state of inequality between race?

# It’s not about black and white

# It’s about all humans getting basic human rights

# So I, so I, so I

# I swallow my pride and look you in the eyes

# Give you my time

# You see

# I stand for something

# I stand for something

# I stand for something

# I stand for something

# Knock-knock, I’m standing at your door like Jehovah Witness

# See, I could be the greatest just like Hova spittin’

# And I don’t really care if you’re not ready to listen

# ‘Cause our people losing lives, forget the system

# The government, they never really care about us

# They sold our youth, so now we’re drowning in the fountain

# And black voices never heard upon your TV

# Black thoughts brought to your ears

# So now all of you people hear me

# And how we’d save so many lives with gun laws

# But I’m shooting holes like pool
# Damn right, I save my black balls

# Please, won’t you Aborigines be polite?

# Only white life’s worth saving and that ain’t right

# So, stop it, this discussion is disgusting

# My mind racing

# Next racist’s wrists I’ll slit and have gushing

# I’m locked in a cell and my education means nothing

# Even though they said sorry it never changed nothing

# Stand for something

# I stand for something

# I stand for something

# I stand for something

# Over half my peers more likely to see prison

# Than to get an education, how’s that life worth living?

# How’s that life worth living?

# I stand for something. #