Anthony Albanese on Q+A

HAMISH MACDONALD

For much of this year, he’s been the invisible man, sidelined by the pandemic as we were all swept up by waves of crisis. Anthony Albanese still wants to be the Prime Minister, but time might be running out for him to make his mark. Tonight, he’s here to answer your questions on how he’d lead the country. He’s started rolling out policies for the next election – it could be next year. So, can he reboot Labor? Can he make his party relevant? Can he keep his team united? And can Albo get you excited? You’ve got lots of questions tonight, so let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.

Hi, there. Welcome to the program. Remember, you can stream us on iview and the socials. #QandA is the hashtag. We welcome you to join the debate, respectfully, from home.

Before we get started, in the interests of balance, we did ask the Federal Treasurer, Josh Frydenberg, to join us this week to answer your many questions on the economy. He declined. We’ve also extended several invitations to the Prime Minister to come and answer your questions this year. He’s yet to make himself available. But you’re sending in terrific questions for our elected leaders, so we will keep trying to get them to come here and answer them. But right now, I’m very pleased to say that the Opposition Leader has agreed to be here tonight. Would you please welcome Mr Anthony Albanese?

ANTHONY ALBANESE, OPPOSITION LEADER

Thanks, Hamish.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Have a seat.

Now, I should point out, you’ve agreed to answer anything and everything tonight. Nothing is off limits, including the specifics of your policies that you started to outline in your budget reply. We’re, after all, potentially heading to an election next year. And we know how much you like music, so Sarah Blasko is gonna be here to perform at the end, which means that no matter how tough it gets...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

One of my constituents!

HAMISH MACDONALD

..you can’t leave that seat. We plan to get to as many of your questions as possible, so let’s get started. Our first tonight comes from Robyn Cantali in the studio.

ROBYN CANTALI

Thanks, Hamish. Australia’s recent political history has example after example of MPs being caught out for misconduct in their personal lives, some correctly and some incorrectly represented in the media. Do you believe that Premier Berejiklian will be judged differently – specifically, more harshly – than that of her male counterparts, should they be in the same position, because of her gender? Will her strong track record of leadership be jeopardised by today’s revelations? And do you believe this is fair?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Of course, we are talking about the revelations at the Independent Commission Against Corruption.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Look, I certainly hope that Gladys is not judged on any of her personal life. I wish her nothing but happiness in her personal life. And it would have been a very tough day for Gladys today. And I felt for her about those personal issues coming out in the way that they did. It must have been very difficult. At the same time, we do have an issue, and from a federal perspective, we’ve had issues around land deals regarding Badgerys Creek Airport, paying $33 million including GST for a block of land that was worth $3 million, and then leasing it back to the same people for $1 million, and they happen to have given significant political donations to the Liberal Party prior to the last election. So I think that these issues, and issues today at ICAC, revolved around, again, land around Badgerys Creek. One of the things...

HAMISH MACDONALD

To be clear, there’s no allegation against her.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Has she done anything wrong that you can see?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Look, that will be up for others to go through. I was on a plane back from Adelaide. There’s issues with regard to her knowledge of what was going on, and Mr Maguire’s conduct, but she certainly shouldn’t be judged for the fact that she has a relationship with someone. That’s her business, as far as I’m concerned. Consenting adults – that’s no-one’s business except for hers. But I do think, from a federal perspective, I want a National Integrity Commission. I’ve seen enough evidence about a whole range of issues – sports rorts and other scandals that have happened at the federal level – to know that. One of the things that ICAC has done is expose corruption, and we need a National Integrity Commission to restore faith in the political process.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Just to be clear, because Labor in New South Wales is calling for Gladys Berejiklian to resign – are you?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, they conduct New South Wales. My job is to be the federal leader and to...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sure, but it’s just a question of whether you agree with your state colleagues.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I haven’t looked at all of the detail, but I certainly don’t think that she should be judged on any personal issues, I make that very clear. I know Gladys. I’ve known her for quite a while. I wish her well. But I do think there are real issues around her government and what she knew.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’re obviously someone that similarly likes to keep your personal life private. What do you see when you see a leader going publicly, like she did today, and answering questions, deeply personal questions, that she’d always intended to keep to herself? What do you make of that?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, I think some of the detail that I’ve read – and I’ve only read it, I didn’t see the evidence – it isn’t appropriate that that detail be made public.

HAMISH MACDONALD

It is not?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But that came out as part of the ICAC process.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Indeed, but it was connected up... Some of... The fact of the relationship was always going to come up, because they were talking on the phone in these taped recordings about events where Mr Maguire – who I’ve never met, frankly – was talking about getting some pecuniary interest from it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But you think elements of what we heard – we all heard today – should not be public?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, I’ve read one thing in particular that I don’t think was...there’s any public interest.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What was that?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

It was a term that we wouldn’t use on ABC TV.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Alright, our next question tonight comes from Mick Leahy in the studio.

MICK LEAHY

Oh, yeah. I’ll start by saying I’m a supporter of the Labor Party and of you personally. However, when your Shadow Treasurer constantly calls the recession “the Morrison Recession”, I think it’s just...just patently unreasonable thing to say, unless Morrison is in charge of the world economy. So, I think his response to the recession needs to be scrutinised, but to just call it the Morrison Recession, it sort of panders to the worst in people, the quick to judge and, “Oh, let’s have a scapegoat. Yeah, it’s his fault,” instead of the, “Let’s be reasonable, talk about what’s actually going on and let’s...you know, let’s get a way out of this.” So, actually, it’s not so much about that, my question – it’s about, I think the reason that people are losing faith in politics is because when I hear “the Morrison Recession” over and over, it makes me not want to vote for anyone. I don’t want to vote for “Go, the Sharkies!” and I don’t want to vote for “Morrison Recession”.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So what’s your question for the Opposition Leader?

MICK LEAHY

Discuss. And hi, Tim.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Look, the fact is, Scott Morrison last week referred in the parliament, on a number of occasions, to “the Keating Recession”. And there were other factors... That wasn’t Paul Keating’s fault that there was a recession during the 1990s. And the fact is also that last year the economy was tanking. The only thing that kept growth going last year was population growth. We had wage stagnation, we had productivity actually going backwards two quarters in a row, we had consumer demand falling, we had business investment falling, and the Reserve Bank continually intervening to lower interest rates and to say that the government needed to do something about fiscal policy to keep growth, and they needed to invest in infrastructure. So I think when, certainly, Scott Morrison presided over, as Treasurer and as Prime Minister, there isn’t a single quarter in which he has had trend growth. It’s always been below what the expectation is, in terms of the trend growth going forward that’s needed to grow the economy. And...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But were it not for COVID, we wouldn’t be in a recession now, would we?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, no, that’s correct, but what we would be...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, isn’t it a COVID recession rather than a Morrison recession?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, the fact is that it’s... Why is it legitimate to call it the Keating Recession? Why is it legitimate to speak about Labor’s debt as if there wasn’t a global financial crisis?

HAMISH MACDONALD

But this moment is not about settling scores. This is about a voter that likes you...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, sure.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..that says, actually, the lines you – both you and your Shadow Treasurer – are using don’t really stand up.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Except that we also have a Prime Minister who walks away from his responsibility, walks away from...pretends he has nothing to do with national borders, pretends that he’s not in charge of aged care, which is where most of the deaths have been, and continually chairs a National Cabinet that isn’t really acting like a cabinet and isn’t really national.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So would you have more success in going after the government on those things, rather than trying to apportion the recession – which you’ve acknowledged is linked to COVID – to him?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, of course it’s linked with COVID. No-one’s saying it’s not. But it is a shorthand that the person in charge at a particular time... I’ll make this prediction to you, Hamish – when we have a first quarter of economic growth, if it is in this term, Scott Morrison will call it the Morrison Recovery.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you buy any of these arguments, Mick?

MICK LEAHY

Well, really, what I’m really talking about is not...not the mechanics of the recession, it’s the reason that people are getting lost with politics. When I hear “the Morrison Recession”, I don’t want to vote for anybody. That’s the thing.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I understand the point...

MICK LEAHY

And it’s just like, you go straight into the mechanics. It’s just patently not true.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Look, I understand the point that you’re making...

MICK LEAHY

There is recession everywhere.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

..but using that term is not saying...is not dismissing COVID, it’s not doing that – everyone knows about COVID and the pandemic and the impact that it’s had. And we argued for economic restrictions. It is just shorthand that the person who is in charge at the time... That’s all it is. Nothing more should be read into it.

But also, it’s got to be said that, during the global financial crisis, we acted to intervene in the economy. We acted with a Keynesian response of infrastructure investment, we invested in social and public housing, we invested in public transport, we did give payments to people, including pensioners and welfare recipients, to keep the economy going, and the Coalition of the time voted against it all. One of the things that we’ve done during this period is to be responsible. We’ve been constructive. We’ve voted for every one of the packages, even though we had some issues with them – we said that super would be abused, and it has been. We said that JobKeeper was...the wage subsidy system, we think that there’s issues there whereby some companies, that you’d be aware, when you pick up your paper, they have 16-page wrap-arounds, but they’re getting JobKeeper, they’re getting public subsidies.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Which companies are you talking about?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, Harvey Norman and some of the biggies. That’s the truth – they are all getting JobKeeper.

HAMISH MACDONALD

They shouldn’t?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, I tell you what, they shouldn’t while people in the arts and entertainment sector, and probably the people who are casually employed here ‘cause of the nature of the industry, who are operating the cameras tonight and are working on this program, many of them wouldn’t be. And the fact is that the whole sections, casuals...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, just to be clear, you’re saying Harvey Norman shouldn’t be advertising in the newspapers...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, of course they should be, but it shows...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So what is the point you’re making?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

That the design of the wage subsidy system has seen a whole lot of people miss out who needed it, and other companies get substantial benefit from it who, clearly, are doing very well.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sorry, but I’m just not clear – do you think a company like Harvey Norman should be getting JobKeeper for its employees?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

My concern isn’t those who are getting it. My concern is people who are being left behind. People like the dnata workers...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Then why point them out? I mean...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

‘Cause it’s just... Because the government, the way that they designed the scheme meant that some people got it and some people who were casuals for 12 months working...some of my son’s friends who are working casually for just a few hours a week for a bit of pocket money, they got it, so they got an increase in their income. At the same time, if you’re a single mum trying to look after a couple of kids, you’d been in a casual job for 11 months, you didn’t get it and you just missed out. So the way that it was designed meant that a whole lot of people were left behind, and that’s something that we pointed out from the very beginning.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, let’s take our next question. It’s from Oscar Dean.

OSCAR DEAN

Thanks, Hamish. Thanks for coming down tonight, as well, and answering our questions, Albo. With government debt expected to hit nearly $1 trillion, it is young Australians – those now and of future generations – who’ll be forced to foot the bill for our economic recovery. These same young Australians have been locked out of the housing market, they’re faced with rising costs of education, have been some of the hardest hit in terms of unemployment amidst COVID-19, which will limit their career prospects and potential well into the future. Mr Albanese, what will you and your party commit to doing to ensure our young Australians have a hope-filled future?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, the first thing we have to do is to address the issue of future job creation, and where they’ll be, and to provide skills for them, provide training for them, whether that’s support for TAFE or support for universities, some form of training, so we identify... One of the things that we’ve said – indeed, the first policy I announced in Perth last year – was the creation of Jobs and Skills Australia. So, you have a body that includes private sector representatives, a bit like the model that we created for Infrastructure Australia, that looks at where the jobs of the future will be and makes sure that we establish training to enable them to get those jobs.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s just go back to the start of that question, though, which was actually about the debt that young Australians are going to have to...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Sure.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..pay down. Are you saying, with the things that you announced since the budget, that you’re adding to that debt? Or are you going to be accruing less debt if you were in government?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Now, what we’ll do is we’ll put out all our costings well before the election, but it’s true that the real problem I have with...isn’t the spending of money...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But the things that you’ve announced, is that on top of the debt that already...is already outlined by the government?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

We’ll have a whole range of...we’ll have a whole range of savings that we’ll make, Hamish, and we’ll make all of those economic positions very clear before the election, but my concern is...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But will one of the savings be the Stage 3 tax cuts?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, that’s one of the things that we’ll look at. The Stage 3 tax cuts are $130 billion. Josh Frydenberg, on Insiders on Sunday, said that he want...the reason why they weren’t brought forward was they wanted to get bang for their buck. So, they were saying that they won’t get bang for the buck from Stage 3 tax cuts, in Josh Frydenberg’s own words. Our concern is that about $80 billion of that is really at the high end. Now, if we’re going to pay back the debt but we’re going to decrease our revenue and continue to have to spend – that I think the government is going to have to do in next year’s budget as well – then you have to have a path back to pay back that debt. So we will certainly...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So do you think that there’s bang for the buck in the Stage 3 tax cuts, or not?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I think it’s very hard to argue, in the current circumstance, for high-end tax cuts. That’s my view. We’ll look at the detail and we’ll make an announcement at an appropriate time. What we said when they went through the parliament was that it was a triumph of hope over experience to say you knew what the economy would look like in 2024-25. We warned against that happening last year and, of course, we know...we know that the economy has changed substantially.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But this is a young person asking about the debt that he and his generation are going to have to pay down.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Sure.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’re saying, “Well, we’re not sure about some of these measures that the government is talking about. We’re not going to commit to it yet.” But you are committing yourselves to more spending on things like child care, social housing, building trains.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

We are.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So you’re willing to sort of add things to the ledger, but not take anything away.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I just gave you a few things we’d take away in terms of the waste that’s there, in terms of the Badgerys Creek land deal, in terms of some of the other wasteful expense...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Well, you’re talking about billions of dollars...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

That’s right.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..for child care and social housing. The land at Badgerys Creek, I believe, is worth $3 million and they paid $30 million, so there’s a big gap there.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

The big thing you’ve got to do, Hamish, is look at... My concern isn’t the fact that the government has spent money, it’s that it hasn’t spent money wisely. We’ve got $100 billion of new spending last week, on Tuesday, adding up to $1 trillion of debt, and that will rise to $1.7 trillion by 2030...

HAMISH MACDONALD

And you’re adding to it.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

..and nothing...nothing to show for it. We’ll have a range of...we’ll have a range of saves. I’m not here tonight to announce our final economic policy, because there’ll be another budget next year in May.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But it looks like you’ve got about $130 billion to pay with...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Yep.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..to play with ahead of the next election if you’re not going to go with those Stage 3 tax cuts. Is that a fair way of looking at it?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

That’s a way that you could look at it, absolutely. But we’ll make our announcements, and it will all add up. We’ll say exactly what we’re doing on the fiscal front before...well before the next election. There is another budget, certainly, next May.

But the big problem is $1 trillion of debt and nothing to show for it. What child care does is identify future growth. That’s why we announced that. What was needed in last Tuesday’s budget, and what was missing, was something that would grow the future economy, something that would add real reform. And during the last recession, presided over by Paul Keating, what we had was compulsory superannuation. That’s led... Today we’ve got $3 trillion of savings, it’s a ballast for the economy, it’s investing in infrastructure – real reform. What we had last Tuesday night was a whole lot of pots of money created, many of which will be abused, many of which will provide savings for us that we’ll announce in the lead-up to the election, and nothing to show for it – not a single reform agenda. There are three ways...

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s deal with one of your reform agendas. Let’s take our next question. It’s from Scott Cochrane in the studio.

SCOTT COCHRANE

So, Mr Albanese, the centrepiece of your budget reply was around reducing child care costs. And whilst, indeed, there are savings for lower-income families, it would seem, from your own modelling, as well as independent analysts, that the big winners will, in fact, be higher-income families. So would you acknowledge that the policy is more aimed at getting the wealthy family, stay-at-home parent back into the workforce than it is around broader income tax relief for higher-income earners?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, what it’s about is economic reform. And if you’re on $80,000, you get 14 times the benefit if you’re a family on half a million dollars. It tapers down. It removes the cap on the Child Care Subsidy and then kicks it up to 90% and then has a straight line going down. So, yes, low-income earners, middle-income earners and some high-income earners will benefit from the policy, but the benefit is overwhelmingly for low- and middle-income earners...

HAMISH MACDONALD

How do you justify, though, a couple on half a million dollars a year getting increased subsidies for child care?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, we had a question before about... The show began by talking about how a woman shouldn’t be judged by who they’re in a relationship with. The fact is, if you’re a bloke earning $400,000, your, uh...partner shouldn’t be excluded from the workforce necessarily just because of that. And this isn’t...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But are they...are those female partners in the circumstance you describe being excluded from the workforce? Do they need further incentivisation to return?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

This isn’t a welfare measure, Hamish. What this is is about the three Ps – population, participation and productivity – which is the three ways you can grow the economy. Now, participation of women in the workforce – it’s absolutely vital that we lift that. At the moment, what happens, a whole lot of women, if they work a fourth or a fifth day – and it could be a man, but by and large it is women who are impacted by this – 80%, 90%, sometimes over 100% of their salary goes towards child care costs, and all of the modelling by Grattan Institute, KPMG – they’ve all modelled similar policies – what the modelling shows is that for every dollar invested in child care you get $2 return or more to the economy in the form of economic growth. So this will increase the participation rate...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think that’s the Grattan’s numbers. The KPMG numbers are not quite as generous. Can you tell us how much a couple on half a million dollars a year would get in subsidy for child care under your proposal?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Yeah, they’d get about a couple of thousand dollars.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. And do you think...? I mean, I know you’re saying this is not a welfare measure...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

If you are on $80,000, you get about $28,000.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Alright. Let’s take our next question. It’s from David Beins in the studio.

DAVID BEINS

I’m recently retired and an ex-Labor voter in a safe Labor seat. I’m unconvinced that modern Labor, in an attempt to reach the broadest possible audience, has the ticker to bring about the big-picture reforms of the past in government. Those reforms have not only forever changed Australia for the better, but the leadership, personal and organisational commitment that underpinned them was very likely the reason Labor was elected into government in the first place. So my question to Mr Albanese is, how are you going to inspire people like me to change my vote back to Labor at the next election?

HAMISH MACDONALD

David, what is it about what Anthony Albanese says that isn’t really grabbing you?

DAVID BEINS

I think it’s...I think the thing about inspiration is that it’s a human emotion. And you’ve got to have the right policies in place, that’s for sure, but you’ve also got to appeal to people’s humanity, and people have to understand the motivation behind the policy, and they have to see the passion behind it. I think that’s part of it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Anthony?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, I’m passionate about equality for women, and one of the things that the child care policy does is just that. All of the analysis says it will lift up women’s participation in the workforce, improve productivity, but also, when families are making a decision about whether they will have a first child or further children, in terms of population, one of the things they look at is cost structures. At the moment, women, when they retire, compared with men, have about 47% of their super balance. They still earn less. One of the reasons why is because the child care system provides a disincentive for them to participate in the workforce. That’s why this is really serious reform that needs to be done.

And it’s consistent with what Labor does in terms of all of the big reforms, whether it was going back to Medicare with universal healthcare. Whether it be superannuation – universal. Access to education – the Hawke government. Three out of ten to eight out of ten, when the Keating government was defeated, in that 13 years, finished high school. We make the big changes. When we were in government for a short time, less time than the current government has been there, the National Broadband Network – which they trashed, of course, but are now having to fix up and try and retrofit – paid parental leave, the apology to the Stolen Generations, action on climate change...

HAMISH MACDONALD

With respect, Mr Albanese, I don’t think he needs a history lesson. He’s already saying that he likes what Labor’s done in government in the past. This is about your promise for the future. I want to be blunt – do you think Anthony Albanese has what it takes to lead this country?

DAVID BEINS

Absolutely, I do. Yeah. But I think it needs to be communicated in a certain way.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, I mean, do you watch his speeches? Do you listen to what he says? Why isn’t he connecting with you?

DAVID BEINS

Well, I think you’re connecting with me much better now. I think...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But you’re in the same room. You don’t get that opportunity all that often.

DAVID BEINS

I think...I think the distance of television makes it a little more difficult, but I think, bringing out the emotion and being more passionate about what you believe in, I think, will make a big difference.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, you don’t think Albo is a good TV performer – is that what you’re saying?

DAVID BEINS

(LAUGHS) I didn’t say that.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I think one of the things that has happened this year, frankly, Hamish, is that we’ve been in... One, parliament hasn’t been sitting. And the truth is that the opposition only get on the equal stage when parliament’s sitting. And secondly, we’ve been talking about the sort of issues whereby people haven’t wanted to see distinction and attacks against the government. People have wanted the government to succeed because we’ve been in a pandemic. So, the political debate has been very different this year. But I assure you, I’m passionate about child care. I’m passionate about infrastructure. I’m passionate about climate change. I’m passionate about creating wealth but also making sure that it’s distributed fairly.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think it was a mistake to play this year the way that you have, by effectively stepping back from the normal role of Opposition Leader, and saying, “Look, we’re just not really going to criticise that much”? I mean, you have a bit, but not really played the usual political game. Do you think you’ve sort of disappeared from people’s minds?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

It’s been a challenge. There’s no question...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But was it a mistake?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, it was the right thing to do, ‘cause doing the right thing by the national interest is always the right thing to do. And we’re in circumstances whereby it just wasn’t appropriate. So, that... We, for example, said... With each of the packages, we said, “We have problems” – with issues like the super changes, with issues like the way that the wage subsidies were operating, a whole range of things – and we pointed them out, we put them forward constructively. It was Labor that put forward wage subsidies, and were opposed, originally, by the government. They increased the Newstart Allowance, called it JobSeeker, and then the queues formed, ‘cause that was a signal to business that it was OK to lay people off, ‘cause they’d be looked after.

HAMISH MACDONALD

These are extraordinary times. Do you think Scott Morrison is a better leader than you?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think he’s done a bad job this year?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, but he has been... I think there are real weaknesses in his approach. I don’t think he’s an inclusive leader. I think he’s set up a National Cabinet process that began well, but since then he’s been trying to fight with each of the state premiers who happen to be Labor – like, it’s OK to shut the borders of Tassie or South Australia, but not the Labor states.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Why, then, on almost every count, is he so much more popular than you?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

This is because every leader – every leader, every state leader... You have a look at the figures around the country, all of the state leaders, people are cheering on their leaders because they want them to succeed, ‘cause they don’t want to get sick, and they don’t want to lose their job. That’s what’s going on here. But when the test has been made, and it’s not a hypothetical one – Eden-Monaro – we were successful. That’s a really tough seat. At no stage, on its existing boundaries, during the Hawke government, does Labor win that seat. And we won it at what should have been the peak of the Coalition’s popularity.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. I want to bring in one of your friends, one of your childhood friends. This is Alex Bukarica, I think is the correct pronunciation. What’s Albo getting wrong? Why don’t people see him in the way that he obviously wants people to see him?

ALEX BUKARICA

It’s a difficult question to answer, Hamish. I... Maybe they’re not seeing the man that I know, and I’ve known for almost 40 years.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You grew up together. You met on a bus, I think.

ALEX BUKARICA

We met on a bus on the way to Sydney University, just straight out of high school, and we’ve been great mates ever since. That’s, you know, almost 40 years. I think, you know, to understand Anthony, you really have to understand his background and where he’s come from. He’s had one of the toughest upbringings of any person I know. His mother, Maryanne, beautiful woman, single mother, brought him up in the toughest circumstances. She had not only the difficulty of being a single mum and bringing him up on benefits, but she had a crippling disability, which was really severe arthritis in both her hands. And I know that, from an early age, from his teen years, Anthony was supporting his mum. He was basically running the household as far as he could.

And what’s given him strength, I think, and made him a really tough person, is his mother’s great determination to give him the best possible start in life. And he is imbued of that. He understands what it’s like to do it tough. He’s got a great heart, and I just think, the more people will know him, the more chance they have to interact with him, they will know him better, and they’ll understand why they should vote for him.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think he comes across as tough?

ALEX BUKARICA

You know, from time to time he does, because this is a tough game. You know, he’s...you know, when a fight’s there to be had, he’ll take it on.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Are you tough enough, Anthony, to be the Leader of the Opposition?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Absolutely. I was Leader of the House in a minority parliament, the first one since...in the postwar period. We won 595 votes, we lost nothing, and we... 595 pieces of legislation, and big legislation, through.

HAMISH MACDONALD

People seem to think you’re pretty affable. Most people in politics seem to say you’re a good bloke.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, you don’t have to be nasty to get your point across, and, you know, if you...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But can you be too nice to actually...

ANTHONY ALBANESE

(LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

..take on a government and actually defeat them?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, I used to take on... When Tony Abbott was Leader of the Opposition and had moved those motions every single day, it was my job to take on the debate on behalf of Julia Gillard, and I did, every single day, and we got through an enormous amount. In both the Rudd and Gillard governments – I’m proud of serving in both of them – I had big jobs. At the end of the government, I was the Deputy Prime Minister, I was the Minister for Communications, in charge of the NBN and media and the arts. I was the Minister for Infrastructure and the Minister for Transport, and the Leader of the Government in the House. I’m up for a big job. I’ve done it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. We’re going to do something different – a quick-fire round of questions. I’m going to invite you to do something that most politicians don’t, and that’s answer them really quickly and clearly – ‘yes’ or ‘no’ if you like, but none of the sort of talking points, please.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

(LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

These are from viewers that have written in from right across the country. Michelle Wallace – “Will you ditch the third round of tax cuts legislated?”

ANTHONY ALBANESE

We’ll announce it down the track.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Sounds like you’re going to. Kerry Anne Toyer from the Sunshine Coast – “What business, if any, have you owned or managed successfully in your career? What are your qualifications to lead the nation?”

ANTHONY ALBANESE

In terms of my working life, I worked my way through school. I worked at everything from a paper boy through to Maccas, to Grace Brothers, to Pancakes On The Rocks. I then went to work for the Commonwealth Bank. I haven’t run a business, that’s true, but I’ve...I’ve come up through my working life, I’ve always paid my way.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Adam Bruce from Glen Osmond, South Australia – “Will you set a different path for your party by renouncing all donations from the fossil fuel industry before the next election?”

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I’m not sure we get any. (CHUCKLES) I keep reading that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You do get some.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, the fact is...

HAMISH MACDONALD

And if you don’t know whether you get them, you probably need to go and look up your donations, and familiarise yourself.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, they are all disclosed.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Deb Sullivan – “Will the Australian Centre for Disease Control be branded the AC/DC?”

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I hope so.

HAMISH MACDONALD

(CHUCKLES) “If Marrickville...” This is from Rodney Todd. Marrickville is your home. It’s been voted the 10th coolest suburb in the world. “What are the 10 coolest places in Marrickville?” We don’t have time for 10, but THE coolest place in Marrickville, please.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Oh, Henson Park Hotel.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. And you’re probably gonna get free beers there for the rest of your life.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

(LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

Darren Bunt, from Brisbane – “What’s your favourite Sabbath album?”

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Oh, Paranoid.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, there we go. Let’s move on to our next question.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

(LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

It’s from Liz Thomas, in the studio.

LIZ THOMAS

Thanks, Hamish.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

There’s viewers wondering what Sabbath is now.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Black Sabbath, for anyone that didn’t get that. We need to sort of prove your rock bona fides here. Liz, go ahead.

LIZ THOMAS

(LAUGHS) Thanks. It’s clear Australia needs to transition away from fossil fuels, particularly coal, and move to renewable energy. Joel Fitzgibbon suggested Labor reduce its emission targets to appease the coalmining community. Does Labor propose to soften its emission targets ahead of the next election? And will this risk more Labor voters turning to the Greens?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Now, I’ve announced a policy of zero-net emissions by 2050. And we’ll have a path that’s consistent with that. I’m the guy who has been around a while, who wrote our climate change policy in 2006 that we put into place from 2007. At the time we announced the Renewable Energy Target of 20% by 2020... At the time, the target was 2%. It was a tenfold increase, and people said it would ruin the economy, and it would be terrible, and we got attacked for it. The truth is that we’ve now met the Renewable Energy Target. There is now no energy policy. Last year, there was a 50% decline in investment in renewables, according to the Reserve Bank.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Before you skate away from the specifics of this question, we need to talk about a 2030 target and a 2035 target. You don’t have them currently?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

That’s correct, because the 2030 target was done in 2015.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So will you have a 2030 target by the next election?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, I don’t think the government might not either. Because what will happen...

HAMISH MACDONALD

That’s not the question. Will you?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, because what will happen is that there will be a climate change conference before the next election, which will establish probably 2035 targets, is what the government will work through.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So you will have a 2035 target by the next election?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

We will look at targets if that happens. We will have targets consistent with, we will have a plan and a pathway consistent with, zero-net emissions by 2050.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But folks like Mike Cannon-Brookes say you actually need legislated targets on the way to net zero by 2050, in order for the market to swing around behind it and make the investments. Do you accept that?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I accept completely that what you need is interim targets on the way through, absolutely.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So you know that you need to take to the next election interim targets?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Interim targets or a pathway, yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What’s the difference between an interim target and a pathway?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Because we will wait and see what happens at the next UN climate change conference next year.

HAMISH MACDONALD

They’re unlikely to do away with interim targets.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, but we don’t know what they’ll be. We will have a strong position at the next election, advanced, well in advance. We announced a very strong policy last Thursday in terms of our transmission policy. I discussed those issues...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding something about what you’re saying in terms of what you don’t know. You do know that, if you were to lead this country as Prime Minister, you would be wanting to put us on a track to net zero by 2050.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Correct.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So you acknowledge that you would need a 2035 target?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

That’s probably right, yeah, but they might decide to stick to... I don’t know what will happen internationally. The targets have to be consistent with international action. That’s the point, Hamish. And I’m not the government, and we don’t know what will happen between now and then. But one of the first specific policies I came out with was that I have a track record of support for renewables, of support for strong action on climate change. We did it in government last time. We did it with a policy that I wrote in 2006 with Kim Beazley, the climate change blueprint, and last Thursday we announced other strong policy, creating a fund, $20 billion, that will fix transmission that is perfectly consistent with what people like Mike Cannon-Brookes are saying is needed.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Our next question comes from Stephen Gee.

STEPHEN GEE

Good evening. I think you could show real Hawke-style leadership by saying that you’re going to oppose the fracking of the forests in northern New South Wales and the farmlands of northern New South Wales in what Mr Morrison says is a gas-led recovery. Australia’s the largest exporter of gas in the world. We export more gas than Qatar. We’re up to our eyeballs in gas. So my question is, why would we want to destroy these environmental things, such as koala habitats and the farmlands, to extract coal-seam gas when we’ve already got tonnes of gas?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, we shouldn’t destroy koala habitats and good-quality farmland – that’s the reason why we have an EPBC Act that examines these things. Look, I think that the problem with the gas announcement that Scott Morrison had... Let’s call it out for what it was – Scott Morrison went to the Hunter Valley and wanted to walk away from renewing Liddell as a coal-fired power station, and he came up with this other announcement that won’t... My problem with it is that it won’t create jobs in the time frame where they’re needed. The announcement that I made last Thursday is technology-neutral. It’s about fixing the transmission. It’s about making sure that the grid works.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think you need to be clear. You’re talking about the Narrabri Gas Project, aren’t you?

STEPHEN GEE

I’m talking about Northern New South Wales, and after that it’s going to be Queensland, where they want to frack farmland as well.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think that Labor has a clear position on gas?

STEPHEN GEE

Well, do you oppose fracking? I mean, why can’t we just use the gas we’ve already got?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, we don’t just oppose gas, that’s not our position.

STEPHEN GEE

Fracking?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

That’s not our position. We look at each of the projects based upon the environmental assessments that are...

STEPHEN GEE

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)

HAMISH MACDONALD

With respect, let the Opposition Leader answer.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

..being based upon...based up the specific proposals which are there. So, we don’t say that there shouldn’t be any new gas – that’s not our position. What we do say, though, is that if you have a proper policy, you’ll get the market base is driving change towards renewables. But at the moment, for example, with Liddell, part of what will fix up Liddell and replace that coal-fired power station is gas as well as renewables, as well as battery. There is a whole suite of measures with are there.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s clear some things up, though. Mark Butler has said that we know coal and gas won’t underpin continued prosperity in Australia. Is that your position? Is that Labor’s position?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, Labor’s position is that you need to transition towards zero-net emissions by 2050.

HAMISH MACDONALD

We know that. It’s just about what Mark Butler, your energy spokesman, has said.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

You can’t do that immediately, and Mark has certainly clarified his position on that. You can’t do it immediately. And the truth is that gas plays a role at the moment, as well in things like feed stock, in things like the production and manufacturing of chemicals. It isn’t just for energy on the gas top, although...the gas stove, although that is an important role that it will continue to do for a while as well.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So how are you going to resolve this fight that we can all see within your party, between the likes of Mark Butler, on one hand, and Joel Fitzgibbon on the other? They have very different views on things like gas. How are you going to resolve that?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

But they also have consistent views with regard to a view that climate change needs to be addressed. Everyone in my party supports zero-net emissions unlike...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But they’re not united on things like gas.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, the truth is that there are debates in a democratic party, and that’s OK, Hamish. We’re not a homogenous unit. You’d expect that to occur.

HAMISH MACDONALD

They’re pretty colourful debates. Mark Dreyfus is said to have called Joel Fitzgibbon “the idiot for Hunter”. Another MP has apparently called Mark Butler “as useless as a vegan in a butcher’s shop.” I mean, there’s a big fight going on.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

A bit of colour and movement, Hamish, that’s all. It’s the Labor Party. It’s the...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But don’t pretend there isn’t a big stoush going on about this.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

It’s the Labor Party. And we go through, people will have differences of views... We had a debate before about the need for more passion in politics...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But with respect, we all saw what that was like in government when you were in power last time.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, hang on, this mob have had three Prime Ministers so far and multiple Deputy Prime Ministers and everything else, so you look at the way they have responded...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But you’re saying disputes over energy policy, that’s just the Labor Party?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

We have been... Over policy directions, there are debates in the Labor Party over policy direction all the time. That’s OK, Hamish. The point is that if you actually have a climate change policy that establishes frameworks that allows the money to go to the least-cost, most-effective proposals, then what you will do is drive the investment towards the energy, clean energy, that will create jobs, lower emissions and provide cheaper energy as well. And that’s what all the analysis says will happen. That’s what the Australian Energy Market Operator, for example, says – this is the operator, not Labor, says – that it envisages that gas will be a very small amount of our electricity market in the future. It predicts – correctly, in my view – that the investment will by and large go overwhelmingly towards renewables. The only thing that’s holding back that investment is the lack of policy certainty from a government that has had 22 policies in eight years.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So when Joel Fitzgibbon says things that are not in line with Labor’s position, we should just ignore it – is that what you’re telling us?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying I speak on behalf of the Labor Party, and from time to time people will have robust debates in it. I don’t seek to be, you know, someone who says, “Absolutely, there will be just one position.” But George Christensen and this mob, Matt Canavan, one of the things that I wouldn’t be doing, they are funding at the moment, the proponents of Collinsville...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s move on. I think we’re going to end up down a rabbit hole there. The next question is from Wendy Qui in the studio.

WENDY QUI

Thank you, Hamish. Mr Albanese, during the last few months, we’ve seen a lack of cooperation and disunity between the states. If you were Prime Minister, what would you do to ensure that there was greater collaboration between the states and territories and a unified national approach to any future emergencies?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

For a start, I would say the same thing in the room with the premiers and chief ministers as I said outside. The problem here is that the Prime Minister has had these meetings of the so-called National Cabinet, but then hands over…those decisions hand over to the states, and largely that’s because of…Gladys Berejiklian and Daniel Andrews were very strong about school closures early on, and there was one Sunday which changed the whole agenda, I think. From that point, Scott Morrison went from trying to have a national approach to essentially having these meetings and announcing what the premiers had all agreed with, and then being critical of them. And...

HAMISH MACDONALD

How would you get the borders issues solved?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

A bit of common sense would have helped. and not sniping, not saying, “Yeah, it’s OK...”

HAMISH MACDONALD

But doesn’t common sense need to come from some of the premiers?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, the problem is here that it is the Prime Minister who has handed off responsibility to the states. He has handed off responsibility for the national border to the states as well. There are 27,000 Australians stranded overseas...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But the states do have authority over their own jurisdictions.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

They don’t have responsibility for our national border, Hamish.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I’m talking about the state borders here.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

But that’s the point here, is that the Prime Minister has given up all of... He has handed over everything to the states.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, are you saying the Prime Minister should assert Commonwealth control over the domestic borders?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I’m saying that the Prime Minister, had he sat down and worked through in a constructive way with the state premiers, it would have been possible to get outcomes that were more nationally consistent.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But you’re saying common sense needs to prevail. I’m just wondering what you think about, for example, Annastacia Palaszczuk keeping the border largely shut with New South Wales?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I think it’s the same as Tasmania. That’s the point. But you don’t hear about that, Hamish. Tasmania have announced some time ago that their borders would be shut until December 1.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But there’s no land border. There’s clearly less people trying to move between New South Wales and Tasmania than there is between New South Wales and Queensland.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

It’s an economy…it’s an economy that’s more dependent upon tourism than any economy in the country, and no-one is critical of that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just want a specific answer – how would you solve this problem of the state and territory borders?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I would have been more constructive. The relationships have broken down. They broke down when the Prime Minister would say one thing in the meeting and a different thing out there publicly, when he decided that...

HAMISH MACDONALD

It’s all his fault?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

..when he decided to divide rather than unite. And you could have had far more constructive dialogue, I think. But we can all see that it has broken down, the so-called National Cabinet and a national approach, and that’s because... If the Prime Minister had have been consistent, he would have been critical about the South Australian border being shut, the Tasmanian border being shut, as well as New South Wales, WA and Queensland.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Our next question tonight comes from John Mann.

JOHN MANN

Given the government will have to pay for the deficit in the not-too-distant future, and the budget did nil for self-funded retirees, who are now living on reduced dividends because of the COVID, will the ALP commit to not raising the issue of taxing dividends, as it was its previous policy?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, I’ve already said we wouldn’t follow the same policy. I announced that very early on. I think one of the things about it was that it was unfair to change the rules of the game to which people, perhaps yourself, self-funded retirees, had invested with an expectation, and that it was a wrong thing for us to change retrospectively, basically, to disadvantage people.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Did you voice those opinions at the time?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I... I... I, unlike some, keep my comments that I make internally internal, Hamish, so I’ve...

HAMISH MACDONALD

We’re just wondering how long your opposition to that policy dates back.

ANTHONY ALBANESE

It dates back a while. But, you know, we’re able to have debates, inside, but that was a decision that was made. It was made for...with the right motive there, but I think we got that policy wrong, and I’ve acknowledged that. And, in particular, I’ve acknowledged that circumstances whereby people had made decisions wasn’t really fair. I think that when you make changes looking forward, they’ve got to be prospective.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question. It’s from Adrian Gilchrist.

ADRIAN GILCHRIST

Mr Albanese, I’m a 38-year-old with spina bifida, which has always impacted my ability to undertake full-time work to the same capacity as my able-bodied friends and colleagues, restricting both hours I can physically work and the work that I can actually undertake. I cannot work from home as a result of additional needs associated with my disability. I’m on DSP. Since the start of the pandemic, critical medical supplies have been delayed due to both increased demand from the general public and increases in price as a result of this. What assurance can you give me that, if a disability bill or amendment that addresses this is put to parliament, you’ll support it?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Done.

HAMISH MACDONALD

As simple as that?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Yep.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Does that satisfy you?

ADRIAN GILCHRIST

Well, I’ll have to see.

HAMISH MACDONALD

(CHUCKLES) OK. Let’s move to our next question. It’s from Lloyd McDonald.

LLOYD MCDONALD

Yes. On Saturday, Kevin Rudd launched a petition calling for a royal commission into media concentration in Australia, and the danger that that has for our democracy. Would you support such a commission? And, if not, how would you address the issues that Kevin has raised around the lack of media diversity in this country?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Well, Kevin’s raised legitimate issues, and he’s within his rights as a former prime minister to do so. He’s particularly focused – it’s not a broad focus, it’s on Murdoch, on News Corp, and, you know, it’s something that we have to deal with, I think, in terms of... We tend to get coverage that, in my view, from time to time – and I expressed it directly to them – isn’t really fair. I don’t think… The front page of the Sunday Telegraph after the Eden-Monaro by-election, anyone who read it would have thought that the Liberals had won the election, not lost it. I appeared on the front page of one of their tabloid papers a couple of weeks ago for something that just wasn’t right. But we deal with that. One of the things that’s happening, though, I think, is that I think people read that into it. I think if people...if they watch Sky After Dark, they don’t expect a balanced coverage like you get on the ABC. So, I worry about, though, concentrating – I’ve got to say, as Labor leader – I worry about concentrating on the report, the reporting of what we do. It’s a bit like complaining about the referee in a footy game. It might make you feel OK, it doesn’t change the outcome or change the result.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, what is it then? Is it bias? Is it deliberate bias? What do you think is going on?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Look, in some cases, some are... Sky After Dark is biased against the Labor Party. Yes, it is. That’s just...

HAMISH MACDONALD

What’s the evidence of that?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

Anyone... Have you watched it?

HAMISH MACDONALD

No, definitely not!

ANTHONY ALBANESE

I tend not to watch it very much either, but you look at who the presenters are, who they have on as guests, what their coverage is, and it doesn’t present, and it doesn’t pretend to present, a balanced point of view. And that’s just the way it is. It’s something that... I often think that some of the petals on the other side of the parliament, if they had to confront what we do in terms of coverage, they would be...they would be somewhat shocked. And sometimes, it must be said, that the arguments put are picked up by the ABC and others as well. You began with, you know... We’ve been doing, in terms of...in terms of polling, our vote has been ahead of where we were at the last election, pretty consistently. So, you know, that’s just the way it is. There’s no point, in my view, in terms of short-term, looking at just complaining about that. I, from time to time... I’m not Josh Frydenberg, I don’t ring editors every day. From time to time, I do do it if it’s particularly over the top. Over the Sunday Telegraph, I did make a complaint.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What was the story?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

It was the front page, after we won the Eden-Monaro by-election, was “Scomo’s scorcher.” You know, “Labor devastated.” And the article reported that we’d lost the seat, and we hadn’t, we’d won the seat. And I’d told journalists on the Saturday night that I expected we’d win by about the amount that we did. But, you know, that’s OK.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Did you get an apology?

ANTHONY ALBANESE

You tend not to get apologies, but that’s OK. I still engage. I mean, I used to go on Andrew Bolt’s program. Andrew’s not someone who is a Labor voter, but...you’d go on, and you’d put your argument. I believe in putting my argument. And sometimes people will complain if I write opinion pieces in News Limited publications. I’ll continue to do so. I’ll continue to take every opportunity I have to talk to the Australian public through whatever media vehicle, accepting that some of them have a different balance, and that’s the way it is.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Well, we appreciate you coming on to answer every question that’s been thrown at you tonight. Would you please put your hands together for the Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese? And thanks to those of you in the studio and at home for sharing your questions tonight. And to those of you streaming us on iview as well.