The Kids Are Alright

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Tonight, children share their questions, fears and hopes about COVID – vaccination, getting back to school and, hopefully, one day going back to normal. Welcome to Q+A.

Hello, and welcome to the program. I’m Virginia Trioli, and we’re coming to you live from Melbourne tonight. Joining me on the panel: Year 11 student Arth Tuteja; paediatrician and child health researcher Dr Anthea Rhodes; epidemiologist and paediatrician Professor Fiona Russell; and in Sydney, Year 12 student Petria Houvardas; and you’ll know him from Coronacast, he’s also on the board of the Research Alliance for Children and Youth, Dr Norman Swan. And it’s great to have you all here. Good evening. Thanks for being here.

NORMAN SWAN, AUSTRALIAN RESEARCH ALLIANCE FOR CHILDREN AND YOUTH

Hi.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

And remember, you can stream us live on iview and all the socials – #QandA is the hashtag – so please join in the debate. Well, our questions tonight mainly come from young people, and that’s the focus this evening. So, our first question comes from Lucija Xavier.

LUCIJA XAVIER, 7, CROYDON PARK, NSW

Hi. My name’s Lucija and I’m seven years old. I just wanted to know why my mum and dad are getting the vaccine and me and my little sister are not.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

One of the biggest questions you can possibly be asked right now. Fiona, we’ll start with you. Why is little Lucija not getting the vaccine?

FIONA RUSSELL, PAEDIATRICIAN AND EPIDEMIOLOGIST

Lucija, what a fantastic question that you’ve asked tonight. And thank you for your question. Now, what happens with kids is that, by and large, this disease, this infection, coronavirus – or COVID – is very mild by and large in kids your age, and most of them don’t get very sick. But, unlike your parents and your grandparents and doctors and nurses, they can get very sick and end up in hospital, and so it’s really important that they get vaccinated first and then, afterwards... Because, otherwise, if they do get sick, there’s no-one to look after you, so it’s really important that they get vaccinated so they don’t get sick. And then, once...later this year, probably...maybe next year, then children about your age, under 12 years old, may be able to get vaccinated too. But there’s not a vaccine that’s available and been tested in little kids under 12 just yet that’s been tested and ready to go, but maybe next year there’ll be something for you, Lucija.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anthea, is that still the right focus? Of course, it’s being tested at the moment and we could get to maybe... Norman Swan can speak to us about the trials that are going on for the Moderna and the Pfizer vaccines overseas in very, very young children.

ANTHEA RHODES, PAEDIATRICIAN AND CHILD HEALTH RESEARCHER

Yeah.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Is it still the right focus that very young kids don’t need it?

ANTHEA RHODES

Well, at this stage, we can’t offer a vaccine to a young child until it’s adequately tested and it’s been through all the appropriate processes to know that it’s safe enough and effective enough for children of that age group to have. So we’re simply not there yet, actually, Virginia, when it comes to children in the age group that we’ve just seen. Obviously, the conversation for children who are a bit older is different. When we’re looking at children over 12 and up through to 16, then we know we have something that is safe and effective for that age group and really that’s come to the forefront of discussion. Now, the question is, should they be prioritised?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Petria, what do you think of the question there by Lucija?

PETRIA HOUVARDAS, YEAR 12 STUDENT

I mean, it’s a really heartbreaking question. Obviously, she wants to be able to go out, play with her friends and have a normal childhood, and she is deprived of that because she can’t get the vaccine. And, obviously, we definitely have to prioritise adults to make sure that they can look after children, because if they can’t, then we have a very, very large problem where the pandemic spreads exponentially and everyone is affected by the disease. So, I think that definitely we need to prioritise adults, but I think we need to also look at children and how they can possibly live in the world, because, you know, their struggles are immense as well and them living in a normal society is very important.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Arth, have you heard similar questions from either siblings or siblings of friends of yours?

ARTH TUTEJA, YEAR 11 STUDENT

Absolutely, Virginia. And it’s... We all want the vaccine, right? And it’s...it’s really a shame that we haven’t gotten to a point where there has been one that has been approved for that age group. And it’s diminishing a lot of young people’s childhoods. In Melbourne and Sydney, half the country is locked down. And, you know, they’re not experiencing preschool, early childhood education, the way they should be. I’ve missed out now on 200 days of my schooling. And I’m sure, Petria, now you’re going into your third month of lockdown, we as young people, we want to contribute to our...to, you know, to getting our education and to contribute to our society. So we also need to be brought into the consideration when it comes to, you know, who’s getting the vaccine. Absolutely.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Norman, how are those trials going? Have you got any oversight on them, the ones for the much younger kids?

NORMAN SWAN

Well, there’s two trials going on. Moderna’s starting one, Pfizer’s doing one. Pfizer has been told to go back and recruit more children because they want to be really sure that it’s safe and effective. We’re in an odd situation, and it’s a really good question, I agree with Fiona, is that most vaccines start in childhood. So this is turned on its head. Almost every vaccine you can think of was developed for children and young people. But this is one that’s been developed for adults, ‘cause adults got hit hard quickly, and children are doing...for children we’re playing a bit of catch-up. But, as Anthea said, maybe by the end of this year, beginning of the next year, we will have a vaccine which will be safe and effective for kids. But this is a pandemic, and we’ve been...you know, we’ve been constantly playing catch-up around the world.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Do we have a sense of timing with those trials? Is there any sense of when they might come to an end?

NORMAN SWAN

You know, they’re saying with the Pfizer one towards November, something like that, but you just never know ‘cause they could have a glitch in the trial or something goes wrong with the trial. You just don’t know.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Fiona, are there any early indicators that it might be the wrong path to use these kind of vaccines with very young children?

FIONA RUSSELL

Yeah, look, safety is an absolute paramount concern, it’s the number one concern with the clinical trials. And so, as any vaccine is developed, we always start with adults first – just a small number of adults – and then we go down through the ages, and that’s for, actually, the infant vaccines as well. We don’t start straight with the babies. So, that’s just a normal process with vaccine development anyway.

And also what we’ve found is that when you do vaccinate people about your age, Arth, is that your responses to the vaccine is much better than adults. And so younger children have actually...they’ve had to tinker with the dosages and get a smaller dose. And so, it’s not the same vaccine, it’s actually a smaller dose, so they have to titrate it, and then even littler kids, again, they titrate it again. So they have to really do the studies to make sure it’s safe and it works. And so you have to start with adults and go through the ages.

And we must remember that it’s been unprecedented, actually, in terms of the pace that we’ve got so many vaccines that are available right now, and that is just historic in how quickly we’ve got them. So, to get them now done right down to babies that are being done, you know, being included in trials as well, that is really extraordinary in 18 months of time. But we have to really reassure everybody that there’s no corners that have been cut. And so these studies are being done under the strictest conditions. And, as Norman has said, they go through these regulatory bodies called...in the US it’s called the FDA, in Australia it’ll be the TGA, but to make sure that they’re really safe, and then...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

We’ll get to some more about the vaccine a little later in the program. We’ve got some questions about that coming up. But let’s bring in Anhaar Kareem now on Skype. Anhaar, you’re in Strathfield, in Sydney’s inner west, which, of course, is in the strictest of lockdowns there. Good evening. Nice to have you on board. You’re 14 and, of course, right now you’re unable to get vaccinated right now, so how are you feeling about that?

ANHAAR KAREEM, STRATHFIELD, NSW

Thank you so much for having me today. And just before I start, I’d like to acknowledge the land that I’m on, and that this land belongs to the Wangal people of the Eora Nation. This land is, was and always will be traditional Aboriginal land.

So, as to the question in terms of how I’m feeling in terms of opening up and without having the vaccine, as young people, this is a time where we’re feeling this really high level of anxiety and quite a lot of fear. As New South Wales Premier Gladys Berejiklian has outlined, once we hit the vaccination target of around 70% to 80%, we might begin to open up, but, obviously, as young people in the 12 to 15 age bracket, we haven’t actually gotten the vaccine yet. So it’s really, quite frankly, quite terrifying for us young people to see that we’re about to open up, but we don’t know if we’re going to be safe.

And, obviously, we’ve seen that the Delta variant, unlike previous variants, has caused hospitalisation and even death amongst young people, whether that be internationally or in Australia. And that’s really quite concerning for us. It’s caused a lot of anxiety among young people. And what kind of exacerbates that anxiety is this level of frustration that we’re feeling, not getting answers from people like politicians. There’s such a lack of transparency, of accountability, there’s a lot of mixed messaging, and it becomes quite confusing and frustrating for us.

So, I know that, for myself, this is a big fear, knowing that I, like, my parents have been vaccinated, my grandma is vaccinated, but as a person who’s not vaccinated, potentially going to school in, as you mentioned, an LGA of concern, that is very scary, and causes a lot of anxiety amongst us, and really, to a point, quite unnecessary anxiety, because, as young people, we are often really, like, disengaged from conversations that do definitely affect us. So I think that, if health professionals and politicians can involve us and ask for us, it would definitely decrease the sense of fear and anxiety.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anhaar, have you got a question for our panel this evening?

ANHAAR KAREEM

Yes. So, my question to the panel is, considering that the TGA has approved the COVID vaccine for children aged 12 to 15 in Australia, and it looks as though Scott Morrison may ask...sorry, may roll out vaccinations for young people tomorrow, considering that our neighbour New Zealand and other countries around the world, like Canada and France, have given young people and been giving young people the vaccine for a while, why is Australia so behind? And shouldn’t there have been more urgency in vaccinating young adults such as myself, especially with the New South Wales outbreak?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anhaar, thank you for that. And, yes, we probably are going to hear tomorrow some news about that. The TGA approved it back in July to be able to be given to young people. But let’s start with our students first of all. Petria?

PETRA HOUVARDAS

I’d just like to say, that was so beautifully said, and I think she encapsulated the way that most young people are feeling at the moment. We want to go back to school, but we want to go back to school if we’re safe. And I don’t think not being vaccinated provides that safety. I think, if we were to go back and act like, you know, we’re not living in a global pandemic, that would be very problematic.

And, you know, it is a very scary thought that I could catch COVID and give it to someone that I love. And I think every young person faces that dilemma, that we can’t get vaccinated. For example, I have just booked in my vaccination. I’m getting it tomorrow. It’s going to take me eight weeks before I can get my second dose. That is really, really hard, because Pfizer is a three-week wait. But instead, I’m going to have to only be exposed to one vaccine that’s supposed to be... My second one’s supposed to be coming in during my HSC, which is also another big thing...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah.

PETRA HOUVARDAS

...the fact that I can’t actually access my vaccine within a time where I’m safe from, you know, COVID, during my HSC. So it opens up a range of questions. How can we go back to normalcy if there isn’t actually protection for people in that 12-to-15 bracket? We need to prioritise children because a third of the cases of COVID are actually coming from, you know, 0 to 19. That is, you know, crazy. So why aren’t we proritis...?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

And we’ll get to... And we’re going to talk a little later as well about just how serious that illness is in young people, because the figures are high, you’re quite right. More are definitely developing the disease and going to hospital as well, particularly overseas. But how serious it is, we should get to. But, Arth, how would you respond to the question about whether we’ve been too slow when it comes to younger people?

ARTH TUTEJA

First and foremost, I want to commend Anhaar for that question and her composure. That was brilliant. Israel right now, they’ve vaccinated 78% of their population above 16, and they’re now experiencing the biggest surge in cases that they have since the start of the pandemic, primarily in that age group, your age group, Anhaar – 12 to 15-year-olds.

I’m 16. I’m yet to get my vaccination. I’ve booked myself in. But it’s a big area of concern. I’m an asthmatic as well, you know, I’ve got an 80-year-old grandfather. I live in a multigenerational home. I’ve got a big family. Not being able to protect myself, and therefore, you know... I go to a city school as well, and I travel on public transport. So there’s the feasibility that I catch it on public transport. I then possibly could even, you know, transmit the disease within my school. I myself could get really sick and I could transmit it back at home as well. And, you know, we should be now getting to the point where 12-to-15-year-olds, if it’s been approved, why has it not...? Why have we been so slow? And I don’t think that’s a partisan issue. I think that is...you know, that’s an issue that we have to address, but it’s not partisan as such, I don’t think.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I know Norman has some views on the rather...how did you describe them – clodhopping TGA? You said they’re just a little too slow for your liking.

NORMAN SWAN

Well, I just...I just think we’ve got double standards here. It’s been said that 12... You know, the Doherty model says 12 to 15-year-olds are not a significant group in terms of spreading. Well, that’s probably not indeed the case. And when you’re over 12, you do actually produce more virus. We have all this talk about how children are suffering and young people are suffering from being in lockdown, and yet the TGA approved 12 to 15, and we still haven’t got a program out there for immunising 12-to-15-year-olds. We will, but we don’t yet.

The one reassurance in all of this... Well, and the other thing I wanted to say, which Anhaar...the point that Anhaar made, which I think is very important, is that we’ve not listened to voices from the communities in this pandemic, which is why we’ve had a problem in the north-west corridor in Sydney...in Melbourne, and in the south-west and western suburbs of Sydney. If we’d gone into those communities and had been led by the voices of those communities, then we would be in a different situation now, and we should be listening and being led by the voices of children and young people. And we do need to do that.

The one reassurance is that it is milder in the 12-to-15-year-old age group, so you’re unlikely to get seriously ill, but it’s true, you can pass it on. We’re just in a difficult situation at the moment, where we just haven’t got the supply at the moment. And that’s one reason for delay. Israel hasn’t been immunising down to 12 years old, other countries have. Britain doesn’t immunise down to 12-year-olds...12 years old either, unless you’re a high-risk group. So it’s very patchy around the world, which I think shows neglect of that age group.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anthea, I just wanted to, before we go to our next question, just ask you, has it been too slow? I mean, should we have moved faster with getting to that group?

ANTHEA RHODES

I think this is a question we’ve been asked a lot through the pandemic – looking back and thinking, what could we have done differently? And we’ve had a situation where we’ve very much been – and we’ve heard the analogy – building the plane as we fly it, and it’s very easy for us to reflect on decisions all the time and think we could have done this differently, we could have done this more rapidly.

What’s really important is the opportunity we have now going forward, where we are all sitting in a situation here and saying, “This is a priority. Let’s look at what we know about transmission, let’s look at what we are hearing from young people about their fears and their willingness to be vaccinated, and accelerate into the space so that we can make a difference.”

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Alright. Our next question now comes from Monique Andjelic.

MONIQUE ANDJELIC, 17, MURRUMBEENA, VIC, WURUNDJERI COUNTRY

So, the majority of young people today are choosing to get the vaccine in order to protect their wider community and their loved ones. However, there are still people who completely refuse to get the vaccine on the basis of information that they’ve seen through social media. What would you say to these people? And is it possible to make an informed decision on whether or not you get the vaccine through information that you’ve seen on these platforms?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Thanks so much for the question, Monique. Petria, let’s come to you, because I know that you’ve noticed this yourself about conversations, information that kids are getting from...even from at home, from parents and stuff they’re seeing on social media.

PETRA HOUVARDAS

I think the mass media and social media is very dangerous, because we hear a lot of misinformation, and there is no way of challenging that because you’re in a pandemic, not at school. Young people stay in an environment where they’re with their parents. If their parents say to them, “I don’t want you to get the vaccine,” they’re not going to get the vaccine. They can’t go to school and have constructive conversations with another person.

For example, if I was at school and someone said to me, “I don’t want to get the vaccine,” I can have a discussion, a detailed debate about why or why not, maybe guide them and, you know, encourage them to get the vaccine. But instead, what’s happening is you’re seeing misinformation... I saw a video online of this girl explaining how an mRNA vaccine actually works. And the comments were, “This is misinformation.” It was factual information that you can look up online. But instead, it was this complete debate about, “No, it’s not true. Stop spreading misinformation. You are a disgrace.” And it was attacking this young woman who was actually really explaining it very well and communicating a message very clearly. And instead, it became this social media frenzy.

And that’s very, very dangerous because young people will take things as Bible. They won’t challenge it. And there’s no area of proving if something is wrong, because there’s no opportunity to do that on social media. And so we take things as they are instead of thinking more critically – which is what school does, actually. School allows you to think critically. Zoom calls don’t allow that. Online learning does not allow you to do that. So we’re stuck in this state where we’re taking things as literal instead of challenging them and overcoming that and encouraging vaccination, which is very important and very critical in our strategy to overcome COVID.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Arth, where are you seeing your friends getting their information from?

ARTH TUTEJA

You know, we’re very fortunate, and I recognise my privilege, as, you know, I live in a big city. You know, Melbourne’s four, five million people. The general consensus around those around me, the urban population, is that...roll your sleeve up and get the jab. And it’s surprising, honestly, considering Australia’s history with, you know, the way in which the public responds to vaccine. We’re generally very eager to roll up our sleeves without hesitation. It’s surprising that in the supposed age of information, we are...we’re hesitant.

And as you’re saying, Petria, what’s the most concerning facet of this is that parents are telling their kids, “I don’t want to get the vaccine.” And when that’s the only source of influence you’ve got at home is your parents, well, you’re going to think, “Oh, I suppose I don’t need to get it.”

We have an infant in the hospital right now, Victoria...in Victoria with COVID. So this...this virus, this Delta strain obviously knows no bounds. We need to roll up our sleeves, we need to get the jab. That is the only way for us to open back up again. That is the only way for our students to get back into the classroom again. You know, it’s horrible.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I want to hear from Fiona on this as well, because, I mean, as someone who works in the Murdoch Children’s Research Institute and dealing, you know, hopefully only with solidly established scientific facts, does it bewilder you that there’s this maelstrom of fake information swirling around an area that you would like to believe is solidly researched?

FIONA RUSSELL

Yes. Look, it is absolutely, Virginia, but we see it time and time again with other vaccines, too. So it’s not unique for this vaccine. But obviously...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

You don’t think it’s more extreme for this vaccine?

FIONA RUSSELL

Well, probably... Perhaps so, because it’s been developed so quickly and so there’s not been enough communications. But I think what’s really been missing here, and as with the...even for adults, for all of us, has been really targeted communications. And what we...what we really need is targeted communications for the different age groups, the parents and our diverse communities.

And I think it just highlights, really, that if there isn’t that leadership in terms of providing communication that really hits the nail on the head and is targeted, then the void is filled by a whole lot of misinformation and people just go searching and come up with things. And it is very difficult to work out what is correct and what is not correct, and... Very easy for someone like me but, you know, things look real. Anybody can post a YouTube video, you know, and it looks kind of believable. So it’s very hard to work that out.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah, with a footer and a header, it actually looks like a newspaper, or a page from. We’re just going to do a series of quick-fire questions now, getting some straight answers from our experts here. And we’ll start with Sophia McPherson.

SOPHIA McPHERSON, 10, CURTIN, ACT

Hi. I’m Sophia. I’m 10 years old and I attend Radford College ACT. I’m worried about the side effects of the COVID-19 vaccines for kids under the age of 12. Will the side effects be different for kids than adults?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Thank you, Sophia. We’ll turn that one to Fiona. Fiona, will the side effects on the vaccine be different for the younger ones?

FIONA RUSSELL

Yes. So, we don’t know yet. Possibly, and that’s why we’re doing the studies. So really important to do specific studies, as I’ve mentioned before, in particular age groups, because they might be different. As we’ve found out, with the Pfizer vaccine in young people, there’s particular side effect in that, and it’s just for sort of young people. And so, with under-12s as well, that’s why we’re tinkering with the doses. We have to very safely and carefully have a look at that. But the common side effects, I would imagine – but we don’t know yet – will be a sore arm, a fever, feeling a bit under the weather for a day or two but, by and large, bounce back and come back to normal with a bit of Panadol. So that’s what we would expect.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

OK. Our next question now comes from Indi Hall.

INDI HALL, 5, AINSLIE, ACT

What happens to our body if you catch COVID?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Beautifully asked, too, can I just say. Norman, we’ll give that one to you. What happens to our bodies?

NORMAN SWAN

Hi, Indi. Well, the virus goes in through your nose and you breathe it in and it goes into your chest and it goes through the lining, like, the inside of your mouth. It goes inside that and it multiplies, because the virus is pretty nasty, and all the virus wants to do is find somebody else to infect. So more virus is produced and you cough it out. So, it irritates you and you cough. And that coughing allows the virus to pass to other people. Now, in little kids, that’s all that happens. You might get a runny nose and a cough and maybe a fever, because the army inside your body that fights the virus, the immune system, works very hard and makes you hot and...and you...and that’s probably all that happens. And a lot of kids, they don’t know they’ve got it. They get nothing at all.

And it’s only a very small number of kids – tiny, tiny number of kids – who get sick enough to need to be in hospital. So imagine three primary... I don’t know how many kids are in your primary school class. Let’s say there’s 30. If you’ve got three classes like you and they all get infected with COVID, only one might be sick enough to be in hospital, and even then, they’ll do OK. So, it’s a really mild disease in your age group, so it’s not something to stay up at night worrying about.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

OK, our next question now comes from Amaya George.

AMAYA GEORGE, 7, DENMAN PROSPECT, ACT

I’m Amaya George, seven years old, and I live in the ACT. Lockdown was so sudden, and I’m really worried what’s going to happen next. And how long are we going to live like this? Are we going to die?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anthea, we’re going to give you the ‘are we going to die?’ question.

ANTHEA RHODES

Amaya, it sounds like you’ve got some really big worries, and the first thing I want to say is that you’re not going to be alone thinking about big worries like that. And when change happens really quickly, it’s normal to feel worried. Even some grown-ups are worried about things at the moment. But it’s really important that you know that you’re not going to die. So, here in Australia, no children at all have died from COVID since the beginning of the pandemic. And even all over the world, very, very few children have died or even got very sick from COVID.

The other thing that you talked about was, what’s going to happen next? And that’s a really hard thing to think about when so much is changing, and it’s important that we tell you we don’t exactly know, but we do know that things might be like this for a little while in the lockdown. It might be a few days, it might be a few weeks, but it won’t be forever. And if you keep talking to Mum and Dad about what’s happening, then they can keep you up-to-date on when things are going to change.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I’d like to ask Arth and Petria what advice they might give as well to our very worried young questioner there. Petria?

PETRA HOUVARDAS

I would just like to say we’re definitely, you know, in a really lucky state, where we live, and it’s a great country with amazing medical facilities. And that’s a really, really amazing thing, where we know that, if we do get COVID, we’ll have people to look after us.

But I think this speaks to the general disillusionment that young people and children are facing. We’re living in this age where this is a crazy, unprecedented time and these anxiety-ridden thoughts are consuming us, and we don’t really hear much information about how to overcome that. And it just shows the mental impact on young people, and I think we need to prioritise that and figure out a way to combat that, so that young people can attempt to live a life where it isn’t filled with these sort of, like, very extreme thoughts. It’s very sad, yeah.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Arth?

ARTH TUTEJA

Amaya, I think... You’re so young, and, you know, we love the fact that, you know, our young people usually separate themselves from what’s going on in current affairs, and they’re happier than us because of that. So, can you, for all of us, don’t worry about this? Mum and Dad will take care of it for you. Stay happy, keep smiling, eat some lollies and, you know, do your online classes. Go for walks, look at the sun, and be thankful that we’re in a country with, you know, a strategy like suppression, or aggressive suppression, like Australia, and we’re not in a situation like India was in or a situation like the US...like the US currently is in.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I support all of that, right up to and including the lollies, and I’ll simply say, a bit of moderation there. OK, our next question now comes from Finn Gowdie.

FINN GOWDIE, 14, BEAUMARIS, VIC, BUNURONG COUNTRY

I’ve asked this question to my parents a number of times with no clear answer, but when will COVID end and when will life go back to normal?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yes, it’s the question we’re all asking ourselves. Norman, we’ll go to you on that.

NORMAN SWAN

Well, Finn, my sympathy’s with your parents, ‘cause nobody can answer that question. COVID will never end. The virus is with us for the rest of our lives. It’s not going to disappear. It’ll change as time goes on. So, what’s going to happen is this, is that we’ll get immunised, and when enough of us are immunised – probably 90%-95% of us are immunised – then very few people are going to get sick with this virus and life will go back to some semblance of normality.

And then what happens is we’ll learn to live with this virus and not get anxious about it, and it’ll be like...a bit like influenza, where it comes and goes each year. And maybe one year we’ve got a bad year of COVID, and one year we’ve got a good year. And every year, you’re probably going to have to have a jab with both COVID and flu to keep you topped up with your immunity, and that’s the way it’s going to be. We won’t be wearing masks forever, but we will for some time to come, into 2022. But in early 2022, we should be able to travel, both within Australia and internationally.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anthea, I know that you believe that we’ve really got to move quickly now on adjusting our thinking away from COVID zero and doughnut days. So, is that the version of normality we need to start talking about?

ANTHEA RHODES

Well, I think, Virginia, we have to look at the situation as it is continually as we go through the pandemic and understand what’s changing and what we’re going to do next. So, you’ve talked about do we look to a different plan? And I think that’s something that definitely is being talked about here in Australia now. We’ve heard some dialogue about it. Because if we look to the world globally and we look at the Northern Hemisphere, who are travelling a season or so ahead of us, we haven’t seen a successful example of elimination as a longer-term solution.

There are absolutely benefits and harm minimisation as a result of having aggressively suppressed the virus, and we have saved a lot of lives, without a doubt, here in Australia, having done this up until this point. But we have to keep re-evaluating. This is the challenge. Everything moves. As soon as a decision is made or a plan is set or a model is built, some of the game changes, and that’s been the challenge for our leaders. So, at this point now, we still have to look forward and say, “Do we have to pivot towards a way through?”

FIONA RUSSELL

Can I just add to that? ‘Cause we’ve heard a lot of distress from Arth and Petria and the children about the anxiety and frustration and with the schooling and the fear of going back to school, which is really heartbreaking, to sort of hear that distress. And so what we really need to hear – and I’m speaking here as a parent and as a wife of a teacher – that we really need to have a plan that we can hear from our leaders in terms of their plan for schools and to alleviate this distress.

Because a lot of the usual things that we have in our lives to...you know, to make us feel better, have been taken away, and for children and for teenagers, that is school. And what has been really clear in this pandemic is that schools do more than just educate children. They do... You know, there’s so much more for mental health, for their social development, for feeling positive about...and having a life. And their life... You know, their life, to some degree, has become their bedroom and their device, and that is not a life, and it’s not a life for a child.

And in Victoria, that’s been particularly awful, and very distressing to hear many stories of what’s been going on in that regard. And for some children, school is the safest place. And so I want to reassure children, and parents that are listening, that this isn’t...what we are living in now is not typical for the rest of the world. Europe has had their schools open since March, and they have plans in place, and what... And they haven’t been vaccinating their children or their teenagers until very recently.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Fiona, I want to jump in there, because I know that you came up with what you saw as a traffic-light system to get schools reopened on the basis of threat and the basis of the infection in society, which wasn’t taken up. And it’s been something that’s really mattered to you. You think we’ve been too aggressive with our suppression strategy, if I can phrase it that way, at the expense of kids in school.

FIONA RUSSELL

Look, absolutely. I think there’s no doubt about it. And what we know from international data is that schools are not the hotbed of infection. Children are more likely to get infected in their house or out shopping than in the school. I mean, the British data – the UK data – is very clear on that. And that is with Delta as well.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I also want to hear from Norman Swan on this, because it gets us, really, to a discussion about the modelling that we are now relying on that comes from the Doherty Institute. Norman?

NORMAN SWAN

So, the Delta’s changed it a bit. So, you’re now seeing a surge in Britain, and it’s just after schools have gone back...in Scotland, and you’re seeing a surge that’s associated with schools going back. And, I mean, I understand what you’re saying – it’s either the kids caught it at home and they’re bringing it into school – but kids ARE transmitting, and they’re transmitting in the United States as well. So, that’s where the modelling goes a bit off.

Look, what I want to say, which I think is more positive for schools, is that we could be using technology better to open schools really quite soon, using things...by getting ventilation better. Our schools are not designed... Our kids breathe dirty air. We all breathe dirty air in the environment in which we live. We haven’t thought about this. But can we open windows? Can we put in fans? Can we have highly-ventilated environments? Wearing masks. Vaccinated teachers. Rapid antigen testing, maybe even for kids AND teachers, so that, if you’re positive, if you’re...if infectious, you don’t come to school. There are ways of actually getting back to school, which are...you know, which use technology to make it a much safer place.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah. Absolutely. And people like Orla Hegarty have done amazing work in Ireland, and other leading scientists who work with aerosols, who have been advocating for this for absolute months – ventilation, filtration, masking, separation and the like. Anthea, none of that has been picked up and has been taken up. None of that’s been worked into the programs that we’re looking at to reopen, to open schools safely again, to get kids back. Is that frustrating to you, and to a place like the Children’s Hospital, that it’s not being put front and centre?

ANTHEA RHODES

I think it’s time for it to be put front and centre, Virginia. I will absolutely say that. We’ve talked a lot today about vaccination, and obviously, that is one enormous tool in the toolkit to help make school a safe place for children – vaccination of children when it’s ready for them in the younger age groups and for those older kids, as we’ve talked about today, as soon as it can happen, really. But it doesn’t sort of stop...start and finish there. There’s vaccinating everyone around the child, which we’ve just heard about from Norman. There’s all the other things that can happen in schools around masks, around ventilation.

And we’re hearing from our leaders that schools won’t stay shut one day longer than they have to. So, the minute we’re ready to open, the kids will be there. Well, we need to be ready for that to be a safe experience, and that is going to take time, and it needs to start now.

NORMAN SWAN

Yeah, but they say that, but they don’t plan for it.

ANTHEA RHODES

Correct.

NORMAN SWAN

There’s no planning for it. It’s... You know, using my phrase again, it’s clodhopping. We’ve got this programmatic inefficiency and slowness, and they all talk, but there’s no action.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

There’s one thing that I did want to raise, and we’ve sort of touched on it, which is the fact that children, as yet – and it’s a great thing – are not getting seriously ill from the disease. Can I just bring in a little bit of a caution and a caveat, I guess? I remember being told this right back at the beginning of the pandemic last year. “Oh, children don’t catch it. They won’t catch it. Oh, and they won’t pass it on.” And, gosh, it turned out that they could. We don’t actually know yet... There are high numbers of children getting infected with the disease overseas, particularly in the United States – about 200 hospitalisations a day there at the moment. We don’t know yet, Fiona, long-term, whether, even if they catch it and it’s only mild, as Norman says, whether, down the track, that might not be a serious thing.

FIONA RUSSELL

Yes. Well, just a couple of things. Just going back to what Norman was saying about the infections in schools in the UK. They did six surveys every month and they found that in the Delta in June, in the survey of schools where they looked at thousands of children, thousands of teachers, thousands of secondary school students…they found that less than 0.4% were positive. And so we have to get this in perspective, ‘cause we hear about every outbreak in a school and we think, “Oh, my goodness, you know, every child in the school has been infected.” That is actually not the case. It might be one outbreak in the school, but they might only be half a dozen kids, so... That’s one issue to just sort of talk about. In terms of the long-term effects...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Just quickly.

FIONA RUSSELL

Yeah. So in terms of long COVID, when we think about long COVID, this is persistence of symptoms. It’s very different in children than adults. In adults, it sounds like, you know, it is very serious and there’s multi-organ damage and horrible things. But in children, because their immune systems are so different, when we talk about long COVID in children, it’s things like fatigue, feeling anxious, loss of taste and things like that, and a sore throat.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But that’s still stuff you’d like to avoid in a child, isn’t it?

FIONA RUSSELL

Yes.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Arth is nodding here. I can...

FIONA RUSSELL

Yes, but, Virginia, when we get it in perspective, this happens to other viruses as well. It’s not just COVID, you see? There’s other viruses. And when we look at common viruses that paediatricians really are busy about, and, Anthea, you can tell us even more...

ANTHEA RHODES

Yeah.

FIONA RUSSELL

...you know, there’s 6,000 admissions every year from RSV, the respiratory syncytial virus.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yes.

FIONA RUSSELL

And that is what really worries paediatricians.

ANTHEA RHODES

We do have to keep COVID in context. It’s not to say that any harm isn’t something we want to avoid for children. Absolutely it is. But we... As people out in the community, we haven’t heard about all the other things that make kids sick and that kids get injured from and turn up in hospital for regularly. So we need to think about it in the context of that.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Let’s get to one of our...

ANTHEA RHODES

I know Arth is next...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Arth was going to say something, but we’ll get to our next question and, Arth, you can jump in in a second. Let’s hear from Vivienne Hall.

VIVIENNE HALL, 5, AINSLIE, ACT

Is there anything we can do to help to make the world a better place with COVID?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

And, Arth, I know that’s something that you’ve actually thought about, which is to make the world somehow better as a result of, because of, and after COVID.

ARTH TUTEJA

I think COVID has really taught us, particularly the education system, Petria, I’m sure you’re seeing it as well. My school, they adopted an approach in which we actually don’t have every single period online. We have one period per week for my unit 1 and 2 Year 11 subjects and every period for my unit 3-4 subjects. And what that has actually taught us is, is we do not need as much spoon-feeding as we get in schools today. And it’s given us, actually, a chance, particularly in Australia while we’re in lockdown, for the curriculum administrations to turn around and say, “How can we adjust schooling? How can we adjust our education system to make it more accommodating for our young people?” Because if we’re putting it in from the get-go that you have to work five days a week and you have to do the nine-to-five, but at the same time, we’re hearing, “Oh, no, workplaces are changing and, you know, we’re not doing the nine-to-five anymore and offices are changing as well.” There’s obviously a dissonance there.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah, that’s interesting.

ARTH TUTEJA

There’s no correlation between, you know, what we’re being taught as young people and what’s changing now in the 21st century.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Petria, what do you think?

PETRIA HOUVARDAS

I definitely agree. I think the thing with schools, though, is that they do provide a place of forming connections with people, which you cannot get over a screen. And I think that’s the most concerning thing, is that we’re going to see a lot of children who maybe have problems having intimate connections with people, which is the biggest problem in our world. You know, with social media, we are already the most connected, but the most isolated generation.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Well, let’s pick up Vivienne’s question then, if we can, which was, “Is there anything we can do to help make the world a better place with COVID?” Is there anything that you’d reassure Vivienne on?

PETRIA HOUVARDAS

I think we could maybe use this as, you know... I guess it’s a difficult question because everything seems bleak, but I think if you look at the silver lining, it has made us realise that we do need to rely on other people to get through tough times. We need to look at the bigger picture and see beyond the horizon. And I think that involves, I guess, a level of, you know, positive thinking, which, you know, in a world where we have so many horrible things going on, COVID has put into perspective how you can overcome that. How can you use, for example, lockdown to better yourself or to experience other things?

And I think it comes down to the way that you see things. And it’s hard, but I think if you have a positive mindset, you can use COVID and this situation as...in a way to overcome this stuff. We’re going to have a very resilient generation. I think that’s a really positive thing. We’re going to have kids who are able to overcome really hard challenges in their lives, and that is really important.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Let’s hear now our next question. It comes from Charlie Paterson.

CHARLIE PATERSON, BENALLA, VIC, YORTA YORTA COUNTRY

My name is Charlie Paterson and I’m a Year 12 student from regional Victoria. With all the disruptions that are occurring during the most important period of our entire schooling, what advice would you give to those of us who have lost our motivation due to the endless lockdowns and overall lack of hope?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Petria, I might come to you on that. How to get motivation back on track?

PETRIA HOUVARDAS

(LAUGHS) Look, I mean, that question, I think just summarises how Year 12 students are feeling. You know, Year 12 is supposed to be one of the best years of your life. Yes, it is supposed to be very challenging. You have lots of study to do. But the whole thing is that there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. And I think that’s been taken away. We’ve had uncertainty regarding what’s going to happen to the HSC or the VCE, and there’s been no interaction, really, on surface level with the government and young people. And so decisions are being made on behalf of young people without the inclusion of young people. And we have very capable young people who are able to be part of a conversation regarding their future, yet we’re not really included in that. And so, it creates this kind of disillusioning, I have no idea what’s going to happen with my future. We want information. We want to be informed. We’re floating in this state of inaction. And it really hard for Year 12 students because we don’t know what’s going to happen.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Arth, any motivational advice you can offer here? (LAUGHS)

ARTH TUTEJA

(LAUGHS) Look, you know, Petria, I sympathise with you and I understand...obviously I understand very, very personally what you’re going through, and Charlie as well. You know, we have a very similar lived-in experience. It is really, really hard waking up each morning and having that monotony, the same online classes, the same, you know, lack of, I suppose, communication and that socialisation that you get in a school environment. It is definitely a challenge. I think, on a more positive note, the online world has given us a chance to perhaps connect with people that we did not expect to connect with. Surprisingly, I’ve had phone calls from friends that, you know, I wouldn’t have expected of over the past couple of weeks, just to see how I’m going.

And I think what’s different between, you know, New South Wales and Victoria is we’re in lockdown six, which means that we have been told you’re going back to school and then you’re not...you’re not again. We had one week between lockdown five and lockdown six. And there’s no end in sight on this one either. So it’s scary, it’s challenging, you’re losing a lot of motivation in the process but, Charlie, I think what’s important to remember is, as Petria is saying, there is a light at the end of this tunnel. It’s not going to last forever. There will be a plan that makes our schools safe for us to return and keep, you know, steadfast in that.

PETRIA HOUVARDAS

Yeah, definitely.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I’ll come to you, Anthea. But I do want to hear from Norman, ‘cause I know, Norman, you’ve got some thoughts on how parents play a role here, and that is in managing their own anxieties and not passing that on to the kids as well.

NORMAN SWAN

Yeah, so two things here. One is peer support.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Yeah.

NORMAN SWAN

So what we... Again, this is about the voices of young people and listening to them. And this problem has been predicted in wondering what’s going to come next and whether it’s all hopeless. So, you know, through Headspace and other organisations, you can find ways to peer-support. People who have been through this, same age as you, and help you through and talk you through it. And we need to organise more things like that. And parents... Look, parents are doing it tough, too. And that’s... And it’s very hard to give your kids hope when you’re feeling pretty hopeless yourself. And...

But I think that taking a break, not believing that the HSC or the VCE is everything. If things don’t work out this year, there are ways of getting back into it. Taking a break when it gets too much, going out and kicking a ball, talking to others and parents helping your kids doing that. And parents stopping...stopping feeling so guilty that you’re having to work and do everything at the same time, and feeling you’re failing your children. You know, I think it’s really important for everybody to be pragmatic. There’s only so much you can do in this current situation to move on. And I think, when you realise that, you start to feel a bit better.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anthea, I know you wanted to jump in there, too.

ANTHEA RHODES

Yeah. Look, a couple of, perhaps, practical things. Acknowledging it’s really hard, firstly, and you’re not alone. We’ve heard all that here already. One of the things we know about people, particularly if you’re an extroverted person, is that often you get your energy from engagement with others outside, and that’s how you top up your tank. And then... I’m like that. And, you know, being in lockdown and stuck at home is not fun for me or my family. I’m sure they would vouch for that. So finding ways to actually have episodes of connectedness can actually start to top up the tank and improve motivation for young people. So that sounds hard when we’re in lockdown. It can be done virtually. We’ve heard a bit from Arth about that. Pick up the phone, talk to someone, think about what you might be able to do... Respecting you’re in a regional area, so that can be more challenging, but a way you can meet with people so that you can get some of that energy back that we get from being social with others.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

And, Fiona, did you want to add something there?

FIONA RUSSELL

I just want to add that, yesterday, I spoke to a principal of a school and I was asking her how all the kids were going in her school. And she said, “Look, they’ve just had enough. I mean, they just cannot do this any longer.” I mean, this is the sixth lockdown, 200 days I think we’ve had. How many... You know, so much... The Year 11s last year had the long lockdown. Now, they are doing Year 12. It’s just... You know, enough is enough. We really have to have a plan, as we’ve said before. We have to have a plan. There are countries that are doing this. We need to look to the best countries. We need to get all that sorted out and that plan. And we need to urgently get the kids back to school for term four.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Our next question now is from Loughlin Shannon.

LOUGHLIN SHANNON, CAULFIELD, VIC, BUNURONG COUNTRY

Hi, I’m Loughlin, a uni student who moved down to Melbourne from Brisbane in July, studying in-person, on campus, for the very first time in my degree. It was all going to be very exciting. And then it all fell apart very quickly thanks to those two COVID lockdowns we’ve had. Now, I’ve been living alone for two months, don’t know a single person in the entire state, and I work from home too. So... (KNOCKS ON WINDOW) ...this is the closest I’ve gotten to being outside in quite a while. My question is for Dr Rhodes, because you’ve written about this subject, and I’m very morbidly curious – what impact do you think this isolation is having on my mental state and that of all of the other young people who might be in the same boat as me right now?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I feel everyone in Melbourne and Victoria have to apologise to Loughlin this evening. Anthea, tell us about the research you’ve done.

ANTHEA RHODES

Look, Loughlin, thanks for your question. And, absolutely, we’ve looked through the National Child Health Poll at how experiences of the pandemic, generally, and we have to understand that it’s not just lockdown, but also lockdown and, for schoolkids, remote learning have impacted on their mental health and wellbeing. And you are not alone at feeling a bit despondent and like it might be affecting your mood and your energy. So, over a third of Australian kids have had a negative impact on their mental health as a result of the pandemic, and that’s been more notable in areas where there’s been a longer lockdown – so Victoria at the front there and closely behind now, New South Wales.

So I think there’s a lot of evidence to tell us that these experiences do affect the mental health of young people, and that’s another reason why we can’t be really reductive when we think about how we’re minimising harms when it comes to COVID. It’s not just about the virus and the virus numbers – they are incredibly important – but there are other harms happening, too. So, not being able to go out into the community is not a neutral experience – it’s an experience that comes with its own trade-offs, and they have to be considered in the equation continually as we go forward making policy decisions about how we best manage this.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Arth, did you want to jump in there?

ARTH TUTEJA

I think what’s really important to remember as well, and I go back to this point again, is it’s really challenging, especially in Victoria... They’re called “short/snap lockdowns”, the Premier calls them...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But they rarely are.

ARTH TUTEJA

I mean, we’re looking at six weeks on this one, Virginia, at the minimum, and, you know, to go in and out every time is incredibly challenging. The effects and, Petria, the two-month-long one especially is...it’s so disheartening. And when you have family members overseas – I haven’t seen my family in India since 2016, I’ve lost multiple family members in the process and it’s so... And then you’re taking the burden sometimes of your parents as well ‘cause you’re with them, you’re not escaping that. So you’ve got all this stress on your head and it feels sometimes as if, you know, the government doesn’t recognise that, particularly in terms of our education.

I mean, there has been no comment so far from the Victorian Curriculum Authority as to, you know... Should there not be an extension of when we have to sit our exams? How on Earth can they expect us to be prepared to start in October? That’s... And I’m... You know... Fiona, you’ve got a son in Year 11 and I’m sure he has the same concerns about the 3-4 subject he’s doing this year.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

We’ll hear from Fiona in a second. I want to hear from Petria now. Petria, go ahead.

PETRIA HOUVARDAS

Well, I guess that’s very...very accurate. I feel for the Year 12 students in Victoria at the moment, they’ve had over 200 days – I can’t even imagine that, I’ve had over two months. And the general consensus from what I’m hearing from Year 12 students, from Year 11 students, is a lack of motivation and how they don’t know how they’ll be able to sit an exam in a couple of months’ time and do their best, which is a really challenging aspect. Because, yes, we can all sit our HSC or our VCE, but will that be a true reflection of our intelligence, of our hard work that we put in over the past two years? Because our demeanour has shifted, our work ethic has shifted. We are... You know, we don’t know what’s going to happen. So there hasn’t been this, you know, grind to go and keep working and, you know, push forward. And instead we’re left with, you know, what will happen is...

The HSC already has inequity in many ways, but COVID and lockdowns have impacted different socio-economic groups dramatically. Some people... You know, teenagers don’t even have access to Wi-Fi, to a laptop. How are we going to go and sit an exam when there’s disparity between all areas of Sydney, between all areas in Melbourne and then, you know, expect that everything’s normal? Because the fact is the situation isn’t normal. It’s very, very hard for young people, and we don’t know what’s going to happen and how inequity is going to be dealt with so that everyone gets a fair outcome.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

I want to go to you, Fiona, because the question needs to be asked at some point – and there are those who are part of the so-called shadow pandemic movement, who are talking about the shadow pandemic of mental health that’s associated this, wondering whether the right call was made to put a higher priority on older people and protect them over…at the expense of younger people. It’s dreadful that it’s even considered a binary, and I reject that whole idea that it’s a binary choice between the two anyway, but that sort of seems to be, to those who are trying to support the rights of children and what children have lost out of the pandemic, the way that they’re seeing it. Do you want to reflect on that for a moment?

FIONA RUSSELL

Look, there’s absolutely no doubt, Virginia, that the rights of children have been pushed aside for adults. I mean, there’s absolutely no doubt about that. Children have not had voice. Children have not even been, you know, considered, as we’ve heard tonight. It’s only really in the last two weeks, I would say, where children have been visible, by and large, in this...in this pandemic. And it’s absolutely well overdue that children are put central, as we’ve heard, because this is, you know, as in climate change, I mean, children are our future.

We know that education is more than just, you know, going and sitting tests. It’s more about social development, it’s more about children to learn and grow, and teenagers need other children. You know, little kids need to learn how to share, they need to learn those social skills, and they learn that by interacting. And then for teenagers, it’s learning about your identity, it’s the peer support and who you are, and it’s interacting. So, there is no doubt children’s rights are being pushed aside.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anthea?

ANTHEA RHODES

It does feel like, when we reflect... And recognising that it’s all easy in hindsight and this has moved very quickly and a lot of decisions have had to be made, you know, as we keep moving and the game changes, but, that said, it feels like, at the beginning, there was a lot of relief that children didn’t get sick. We were worried about our kids and we all exhaled and went, “Oh, thank goodness, kids don’t get sick,” and it was a bit like that was the end. “Oh, thank goodness, kids don’t get sick. The end.” And the role the kids had then and many of the sacrifices that, you know, our young people are telling us about today were made to protect older people. And now we’re changing our story because we see that kids might be getting sick. Fortunately, they still don’t seem to be getting very sick very often from COVID, even with Delta...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

But the mental health cost has been high.

ANTHEA RHODES

Correct. But we’re seeing other ways that they’ve been impacted, and it’s incredibly important that we don’t continue with that. We are at a point now where we could look and say, “What do our children need? What would this look like if we put them at the centre?” For starters, we would be vaccinating everyone around children as a priority. Health care workers, yes, incredibly important – I’m one myself. But what about the teachers? What about the childcare workers? These people surround our children. They would be Category 1B, if we put the children first.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

We have a final question coming for you, but I just want to mention that if this discussion has raised any issues for you or anyone you know and care for, remember you can get help from Lifeline or from the Kids Helpline and the numbers are on your screen now.

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VIRGINIA TRIOLI

So, our final question of the night comes from young Matilda Blom.

MATILDA BLOM, 5, AINSLIE, ACT

Will the coronavirus be here forever?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

(CHUCKLES) Matilda!

ANTHEA RHODES

That’s a great question.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Gorgeous little dot. OK, dear panellists, you have to give Matilda some hope, alright? We know what you’ve said, Norman Swan, about, yes, it will be here in some way, but will it be here forever in this way? What hope can you give Matilda, Norman?

NORMAN SWAN

It won’t be here forever in this way. We will get out of lockdown. You will be able to see your nan and your pop and your uncles and your aunties. That will happen as we get more jabs in the arms and move forward. So it’s going to be very different. And hopefully by Christmas, it’ll be...the coronavirus, as it is now, will not be the way it is now.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Fiona, what would you say?

FIONA RUSSELL

Look, I would say to Matilda that, you know, fortunately we have our superheroes, and they are our scientists. And so, they have come in and swooped and saved the day...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

You didn’t come in a superhero outfit tonight, Fiona. You lost that opportunity. Yes, and what will they do for us, Fiona?

FIONA RUSSELL

Well, as Norman has said, we’ve got vaccines, and hopefully, they’ll be invited in as the engineers to help with our ventilation too, and so we’re waiting for that. We’ve been waiting for a very long time, so hopefully that will happen.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Anthea?

ANTHEA RHODES

Yeah, look, I think it would be nice if we could find a place where we didn’t have this level of fear about coronavirus. So I would say to Matilda – maybe it might be here but we won’t have to even think about it, we won’t have to worry about it. It will just be another thing that happens sometimes to some people, and our life goes on as normal.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Arth, what would be your advice to Matilda?

ARTH TUTEJA

I think it’s... Yeah, as we’ve heard from the panel tonight, is that lockdowns will end, we will get to a point where COVID becomes a part of our society that we accept and we move on with and we move on with our life that way. It’ll become like a flu. It’ll become like a jab that you have to get annually. And as that happens, slowly and surely, I can...I’m relatively sure, and I have enough faith in my government that we will return to some state of normalcy, we will open our borders again, and this idea of closed borders, even domestically, will be something that we’ll laugh about in 20 years’ time.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

Petria?

PETRIA HOUVARDAS

Yeah, I think, Matilda, you have a very bright future. This is just a small part of your life, and eventually we will go on to much bigger and better things and it will become the norm, but it will be better, and this state of, you know, our mental impact and COVID as it is now in the extreme will diminish and we will all have a very great future and, you know, this will all just be some distant memory that we laugh about and, you know, it will get better, and this is not permanent, for sure.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI

And my little bit of hope that I would offer to Matilda is to, I guess, say that your grandparents and your parents have gone through hard times, too. They’ve gone through wars and depressions, they’ve survived pogroms, they’ve left countries that have been torn apart by civil war and they’ve made their way here to Australia, and that’s defined them. That’s been the trauma of their life that they would have liked to be without, but instead they had to go through it, just like Going On A Bear Hunt, but they got through it and it made them what they are. And you can perhaps draw down on some of their strength, ask them how they got through their hard times, and it’ll be the hard time that defines you and your generation as well – and if this is any indication, it is quite an extraordinary generation, a resilient generation and a remarkable one that I cannot wait to see grow up, so thanks to all of you.

That’s all the time that we have for, so please thank our marvellous panel: Arth Tuteja, Anthea Rhodes, Fiona Russell, Petria Houvardas and Norman Swan. And thank you, of course, for sharing all your brilliant questions this evening. Next week, David Speers will be here on the big red dot for a look at the National Summit for Women’s Safety. There’s been plenty of talk about that, but are we really doing enough to keep women safe? On the panel will be Australian of the Year Grace Tame, Federal Police Commissioner Reece Kershaw, and Shadow Foreign Minister Penny Wong. And you can join me tomorrow morning on ABC Radio Melbourne. Stay safe, goodnight, and go well.