The Future of Sport

Panellist %
Andrew Abdo 24
Sharni Layton 23
Tracey Holmes 22
Bruce Djite 17
Brendon Gale 14

HAMISH MACDONALD

With the AFL and NRL seasons under way, players are using their national stage to take a stand against racism. But are the leagues actually doing enough to end discrimination? There’s lots to talk about tonight, including how clubs and codes recover from the shutdown. Grassroots sport, the lifeblood of so many communities, is under threat. You’ve got lots of questions, now let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.

Hi there. Welcome to the program. Joining me tonight: acting NRL CEO Andrew Abdo; world champion Australian netballer and AFLW All-Australian Sharni Layton; sports broadcaster and journalist Tracey Holmes; Richmond Football Club CEO Brendon Gale; joining us from Adelaide this evening, former Socceroo and Director of Football at Adelaide United, Bruce Djite; and a little later in the program we’ll hear from Paralympian Madison de Rozario. She’s got her sights set on Tokyo – not in 2020, but 2021.

MADISON DE ROZARIO

I think sport has this incredible ability to transcend so many things, but not a global pandemic. And it wasn’t the time for it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Great to chat to her. We’ll hear from her later on. Remember, you can stream us on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. #QandA is the hashtag, and we do love hearing from you. Kicking off tonight, our first question is from Melissa O’Donnell.

MELISSA O’DONNELL

So, I’d like to first acknowledge that I have the privilege of asking this question from Gadigal land, over which First Nation sovereignty continues. So we all watched as...what happened to Adam Goodes when he dispelled the silence on racism in the AFL. All the right people said “never again”, yet, against the backdrop of Black Lives Matter, we’re revisiting the shocking racism and the gaslighting that Heritier Lumumba experienced in his time at Collingwood, and it’s clear that Collingwood still fail to fully comprehend exactly what he is calling out. Then you’ve got the case of Latrell Mitchell in the NRL. He’s exceptionally talented, yet the moment he used his position to take a stand on racism and refused to sing the national anthem, he’s had a target on his back – from fans, from the media and even from the NRL. And these are just cases that are the tip of an iceberg that begins at the grassroots. As a lawyer, I’d know – I’ve run those race discrimination cases against local sporting codes in regional New South Wales. So my question is, at what point do the AFL and the NRL see themselves as part of, and active participants in, the structural racism of our system, take full accountability for that, and perhaps even lead us in the repair and the dismantling processes we so desperately need?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Andrew Abdo.

ANDREW ABDO, ACTING CEO, NRL

Yeah, Melissa, a great question to head us off. I... Let me first start by saying and acknowledging racism exists. It exists in our society and it exists in sport. There’s no denying that. And we have a role to play to drive positive, powerful change. I think if you...if you have a look at what’s happened across not just the AFL and NRL, across society, we have instances where individuals are victimised, and we need to do more. Players need to feel safe. They have an opportunity to express themselves and express what they believe in. As a code, if we can align and be really united on the inside, then we can drown out what exists on the outside. And what I mean by that is we stand for inclusivity. It’s core to what rugby league is about. Can we do more? Absolutely.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But what does that look like – “doing more”? You said, “We need to do more.” What is that?

ANDREW ABDO

Well, first of all, listening to our players, giving them a platform so that they can express themselves. We’re fortunate in that we have an advisory group, we have a players...an Indigenous Players Advisory Group, we have the Australian Rugby League Indigenous Council. These are people that are helping us understand what the issues are on the ground, and are also informing us on things that we can do to drive change. We’ve listened to our players. When the players in the Indigenous All Stars team didn’t want to sing the national anthem, we thought about it, we consulted, and we felt it was appropriate to not sing the national anthem, because it wasn’t an appropriate opportunity to do that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Bruce Djite, we’ve all heard sporting administrations in Australia, globally as well, say that they’re doing the right things, they’re listening, they’re taking steps. Why doesn’t that produce the results of stamping out racism in sport, particularly at a professional level?

BRUCE DJITE, DIRECTOR OF FOOTBALL, ADELAIDE UNITED

Look, there’s no doubt that racism exists. At times it’s more dormant than others. You know, in this current period, we are in a very divisive phase. You know, people are more willing and able to come out and actually say what they’re thinking. At other times, where things are more calm, people have the same thoughts, but they’re not articulating them. But the racism is still there. I think it starts with education. I really do. You know, it’s only been the last couple of weeks when this Black Lives Matter movement has really come to Australia. And we start talking about Aborigines and the Indigenous and what they’ve been through. I mean, I’m embarrassed that I didn’t know what blackbirding was. Of course slavery was here. Of course slavery existed. A technicality on a name is insignificant when you look at the actions. I think sport is...is in a particular place where its raison d’etre is to improve society, and society cannot be improved if you are not giving a handout to help the...a hand-up to help the people who have been left behind. And it’s time for platitudes to stop and action to be taken, and for organisations to be judged on the actions they take, not the words that they speak.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Brendon Gale, we just heard a list then of instances across different codes where players of colour have taken a position on something that’s deemed to be, for some people, some fans, uncomfortable, and they pay the price. How do sports actually stop that?

BRENDON GALE, CEO, RICHMOND FOOTBALL CLUB

Well, I think the first...the first way, Hamish, is to celebrate the contribution that diversity makes to our codes, our sports. And, in this case, our Indigenous brothers and sisters – they make an enormous contribution...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But isn’t the point that you’ve been celebrating that for a very long time and it hasn’t actually eradicated the problem?

BRENDON GALE

It is. But... It is. But if you just let me finish, then the second point, I think, is...is to not shirk, and the...the point is there is racism in Australia, and sports aren’t immune. And there are racist episodes, and we’ve seen some recently. So I think sport in this country is a very powerful social and cultural institution that has enormous traction in society. So...so it gives an opportunity to shine a light on these issues. ‘Cause, so often, racism comes from ignorance. So when we’re talking about this and we’re talking about what this means and how this impacts our Indigenous brothers and sisters, you know, people become more informed, and I think, you know... I think sport in general, and certainly the sport that I’m involved with, provides a very powerful platform for us to continue to do that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tracey, do you think, through this process, Australia is becoming more informed? Do you accept that argument that’s been put?

TRACEY HOLMES, SPORTS BROADCASTER AND JOURNALIST

Look, I do. I think what we’re seeing from...first of all in America, and how it’s, you know, reignited a bit of a flame here in Australia for people to be able to say, “This is not good enough”... What we’ve seen happening around the world, the NFL has come out... And let’s remember that the whole thing about taking a knee, you know, in its newest form, was first done by Colin Kaepernick in the NFL. We know that he has not been employed since. The NFL came out in the past couple of weeks and said, “We think we got that wrong,” still without mentioning his name or apologising to him. And it’s much in the same tone as Heritier Lumumba saying he hasn’t had an apology in person – not a public press release, but something that is personal and, you know, showing that an organisation has listened and is willing to make substantial change.

And I think what you have to look at is that...we’ve been listening to players, we’ve been watching players, we see it in so many of our codes, not just football – we see it in basketball and so many other streams of sport around the country. The players are fantastic. They’re highly overrepresented because they are such wonderful athletes. And then, what happens? Where do they go? Every time we hear from someone in management, every time we see a coach or assistant coach, or the general managers, or the board of directors, where are they? We see white players that progress to other areas and into the halls of power, but what our sports bodies say is that we’re still listening to the players, and it’s really not good enough. I think those other doors have to open to give them a much bigger voice, a much more powerful voice, and a much more influential voice.

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah, I mean, I’d like to respond, Tracey. I think...I think the tide is turning. In rugby league, we’ve taken action against... We make it clear what we stand for. And if fans are not withholding those standards, they are banned from attending games. We moderate social media, we don’t...we don’t tolerate any form of racism whatsoever. That’s the standards by which we live by.

But just building on something that you mentioned earlier around Colin Kaepernick, I mean, and I agree with what Bruce says – education is key, cultural awareness is key. Colin’s whole point around taking a knee was actually to show respect and to...to ask for help, because what he was saying was police brutality is a major issue for African Americans. He wasn’t being unpatriotic. And I think...I think the world is shifting. I think, if sports want to win new fans and they want to connect with societies, I think that people want to, you know, belong to something that they believe in. I honestly think that younger people won’t tolerate anything less.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sharni...

SHARNI LAYTON, AFLW ALL-AUSTRALIAN

I agree with that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..I can see you’re trying to get in.

SHARNI LAYTON

Yeah. Like, “Ooh, where can I come in here?” Yeah, I completely agree with what Andrew said there, but I do agree that we do need to continue to see more action. You know, I loved seeing the AFL and the NRL taking a knee during the last two games, but I wish that it didn’t take for Black Lives Matter for us to actually be paying attention to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders. And I hope that we do continue to use this momentum, but then also remember to keep taking action rather than saying all of these words that, you know, we’re wanting to represent and change things. But, like you said, we need to be stamping them off social media. You know, we need to be taking away those memberships and definitely not standing for that.

And this is my own personal opinion, but I really believe that there needs to be an apology as well – and public apologies – because, by doing that, those players that have spoken out that had to be so brave and they have copped so much for such a long time now, and for those larger organisations to be able to come out and say, “Hey, this actually did go on and we’re sorry,” that is the most bravest and courageous thing that you can do for those players at this current point in time.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Brendon Gale, why is that so difficult for sporting codes to do?

BRENDON GALE

Well, I’m not really sure, Hamish. I mean, I think, you know, as we evolve, attitudes change. But, you know, I think that the AFL industry, you know, could have done more in terms of Adam Goodes, for example, but came out...and apologise unequivocally. I just think attitudes change. That would be the very simple answer.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think it is, though, far simpler for a sporting code to make a grand statement about its ambition, about what its values are, than it is to actually deliver the change and ensure that, if a player takes a position or does something that some are uncomfortable with, to actually defend them? There’s a difference in the treatment in these scenarios.

That’s to you, Brendon Gale.

BRENDON GALE

I’m sorry, I just didn’t pick you up there, Hamish. I’m sorry.

SHARNI LAYTON

I’ll jump in there. I think... So, from a club perspective, we have come so far, which I think is really exciting. I know, personally, at Collingwood we have got a great Indigenous community manager in Deb Lovett, and she does a phenomenal job in the community, but also in educating the players. However, it’s hard for them to reflect and realise at times that maybe we haven’t done things so well in the past. And so, yes, it’s absolutely OK to change, but I think you also need to be able to accept if things haven’t been right...done previously, and then I think that purely comes down to ego.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Melissa, I can see you’re trying to get back in on the conversation. Are you satisfied with any of the responses you’ve heard?

MELISSA O’DONNELL

I’m not really, and I kind of want to throw the opportunity to Ralph that came with me.

RALPH SAUNDERS

My name’s Ralph Saunders. I’m Biripai mob. Just like to acknowledge the Gadigal/Eora country we’re on at the moment. The biggest thing that I can see with the NRL is...is how do you police the media? And you’ve got commentators that launch witch hunts against certain players that, you know, try their hardest, and they’re just normal people. I think that, you know, it starts with the mouthpiece, the commentary, you know, targeting certain players, absolutely hammering them to the point of near suicide. I mean, you’ve got to think about these young guys playing NRL. They’re, like, you know, coming through the ranks – 19, 20, 21. The guys that are criticising them are legends, they’re immortals. You watch them, you know, from growing up. You know, like, I could go into names, but I won’t. But at the same time you get what I mean. How would it feel for a young kid that’s...all he’s known is football from day one, he’s just a bred footballer, all... He’s come through the juniors, come all the way through, immortalised all these great players, only to hear the commentary aimed at him, hammering him – or her in a lot of cases – absolutely annihilating them, media getting on board and absolutely just tearing shreds off them?

HAMISH MACDONALD

But...

RALPH SAUNDERS

And the NRL just isn’t taking responsibility in supporting... Effectively, these guys are at work.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Your response?

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah, I mean, Ralph, that’s a good question. Look, the impact of the media and certainly the way the media amplifies and sometimes intensifies situations is not helpful, right?

RALPH SAUNDERS

Sorry, Andrew.

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah.

RALPH SAUNDERS

Look, you might not be able to control the whole media sector.

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah.

RALPH SAUNDERS

Fair enough. But you do have a media sector yourself.

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah.

RALPH SAUNDERS

You can control that. And I think it’s very, very important that the NRL control that. Instead of having bigoted people on there that want to rip into kids that are just trying to make a living and doing what they love, ripping shreds off them, absolutely to the point of near suicide... You know, I think that the NRL need to take a position there and actively...actively dismiss those people.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s just give Andrew a chance to respond there.

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah, absolutely. I can fully respect the passion you have for this and I see why it’s such an important issue for us to address. There’s no question that there’s no place for bigotry, there’s no place for racism or bullying or any of that. And certainly there’s an opportunity for us, through our own media, through NRL.com, our own voice, to be able to tell the story as we see it, to be able to hear... to balance things off and certainly to throw sunlight on the issues to make sure that people feel safe. It’s important for our players to feel safe. It’s important for our fans, volunteers, coaches, players, everyone, to feel safe.

HAMISH MACDONALD

We’ve seen the dangers in recent months, though, of your code upsetting some of your media partners. It’s a complicated relationship and it causes problems for you, doesn’t it, if you then pursue a particular media outlet over its coverage of a particular player?

ANDREW ABDO

Well, look, you always ultimately want to stand up for something. And if we believe that any of our partners have not aligned to the values of the game, then we will say something. We have in the past and we’ll continue to do that. But, as you say, I mean, it’s a very delicate matter. It’s in the eye of the beholder. And ultimately, as a sport, where I think we can make a difference is when we stick together. And clubs, players, the codes and media partners, if we stand for something that’s consistent, and we see action that follows that, then eventually you drown out the minority voices. Because, let’s face it, it’s a small group of people that broadly don’t adhere to the standards that we all live by.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. We just...

RALPH SAUNDERS

(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) Just another thing. Look, I have to say, I have to applaud you talked about the players and the support. The camaraderie amongst players is sec...seems to be second to none. And I think that the outside parties... Because, you know, you had a lot of players stand up and said, “Look, enough’s enough.”

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah.

RALPH SAUNDERS

Enough is enough.

HAMISH MACDONALD

(CHUCKLES) I’m going to have to take this program back, because we’ve got more people waiting to ask questions. So, with respect, let’s take our next question tonight. It’s from Cameron Haines in East Hawthorn, Victoria.

CAMERON HAINES, EAST HAWTHORN, VIC

Over the past decade, many of our major sporting codes have enjoyed record-breaking broadcast deals, seen soaring match day attendances and rising participation levels amongst all ages and genders. Why is it, then, that the moment this pandemic hit, many of them had to scurry to secure emergency funding from external financial institutions, make considerable staff redundancies, and to implement sweeping cost-cutting measures just to ensure their short-term survival? Does the panel believe that the way sports administration is governed in Australia needs to be revolutionised by greater transparency or greater scrutiny, by independent regulators or governments?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Bruce Djite?

BRUCE DJITE

Look, after this...during and after this coronavirus pandemic, I must say I’m relatively lucky to be in a sport, in football, that is quite lean – understaffed, some may say. And that’s allowed us to weather this storm financially in terms of cutting fat or cutting back on extravagances. We haven’t had to do that, you know? So, what I would say is that this will change the way sport is administered and governed into the future. You know, people will look very closely at their balance sheet to make sure, if there ever is another financial crisis in the game, that they don’t have to make these sweeping changes. But I can only speak personally – at my football club, Adelaide United, you know, we’ve been lucky in the sense that we ran such a lean organisation in the first place that, despite having to take annual leave and other measures, we have had no fat to actually cut.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, I mean, you say you’re lucky, Bruce. Can you tell me when the A-League season is going to resume?

BRUCE DJITE

Yeah, look, my understanding is that the A-League season will resume in the middle of July. I’ve got the draft fixture list on my email. I understand there will be an announcement tomorrow. And mid-July we’re all looking forward to coming back and having a festival of football – I think it’s 27 games in about 28 days – to finish the season, plus finals. And I can definitely tell you that sports administrators and footballers, clubs, chairmen and fans alike are keen to see their sport back on the TV.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tracey, the truth is, though, that for some of these codes it’s been a sort of hair-raising time, and for all the money that washes through this industry, they came pretty close to falling over – at least they claimed.

TRACEY HOLMES

Yeah, and I don’t think... (LAUGHS) Yeah, they claimed. You know, cricket jumps to mind. Some of the players are still waiting to find out exactly, you know, what the balance sheet does look like, because they haven’t been playing the game but they’ve said that they’ve suffered horrendous loss and they’re going to need to re-evaluate the collective bargaining agreement and how much money the players will get. But I don’t think sport is unique in this area. I think this has hit everybody quite substantially.

I think the one thing that does need to be pointed out is that, you know,  sport is actually not for profit. So the money that comes in goes back out again. There’s not a lot of money that is kept in the bank. In fact, they can’t afford to keep a lot of money in the bank, because they’d be going against their not-for-profit regulations. And when you consider the bigger sports, like AFL or rugby league or cricket for instance, you know, they’re looking after the elite end. They’re looking after the development in the middle. They’re looking after grassroots. There’s all of these other programs that they need to get through. I do agree with Bruce – there has been some fat allowed to grow.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But the... It’s become clear, hasn’t it, during this period that some are run better than others, that some had more room to manoeuvre in a crisis than others did?

TRACEY HOLMES

Well, you know, perhaps you’re better off asking them that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

(CHUCKLES) I’m going... I plan to...

TRACEY HOLMES

We’ve got two men sitting here. (LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

..come to Andrew on that question, but I’m interested to hear your thoughts on it. I mean...

TRACEY HOLMES

Look, I think sports... This is another area where sport is unique, is that people are generally in it because they feel so passionate about it. Governance has been an issue in a lot of sports around the world. We know that. We also know that, through Sport Australia, and the Australian government, and regulations that they put in and is attached to any form of funding, that there are definite measures that have to be reached. We saw the sport of Equestrian Australia go into voluntary administration in this past week. Yes, there are issues. There are always issues. Things can always be done better. I just hope that this pandemic has actually made people stop and have a look, and say, “What have we got wrong? What do we really need to revolutionise? And how do we go on track with a new, clearer vision that is going to be better for all?”

HAMISH MACDONALD

Andrew, how is it that, for a code like yours that has a more than $1 billion, five-year broadcast deal alone, that the moment a crisis strikes, you are turning around to the government asking for taxpayer handouts?

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah, well, I mean, I’m glad you asked that question, ‘cause I’d like to jump in here. There’s a...I mean, there is an absolute positive slant to this, because, under pressure, your true colours come out. And what we’ve seen with rugby league... And everything that Tracey says is right. We’re not for profit, so revenues flow in and they get fully distributed, whether it’s through the elite game or through to grassroots.

Through this crisis, what we’ve seen is incredible leadership and teamwork, and a sharing of the pain amongst all the stakeholders. Our players have been terrific, our clubs have been responsive, we’ve had great collaboration with our sponsors and our partners at the elite level, to be able to absorb the pain. We’re going to come through this crisis, as Tracey alludes, with a very clear focus on what we need to do differently to be even more sustainable. But the truth is that getting back on the field, and getting footy back to our fans, has enabled us to survive this crisis, and to be able to do so in a way in which we can think about how we can get even more efficient.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, did you not need the millions that you were asking for from the Commonwealth government on 15 March, when Peter V’landys said that “the government has to assist us in this crisis because it’s not of our doing”?

ANDREW ABDO

Well, I think there’s a broad range of stakeholders affected by that. Don’t forget that our partners have been heavily affected in the media industry, as you’d be aware.

HAMISH MACDONALD

No, this is the question – did you need that money, or not?

ANDREW ABDO

Well, of course we needed support. We needed support from state governments, but it may not be financial.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So why were you asking for money?

ANDREW ABDO

Well, I think that there’s an... I think there’s an opportunity for us to reflect on a point in time and a situation, where a sport needs to understand... At that particular point in time, we had an unprecedented shutdown and an uncertain future. So, we weren’t sure if we were going to be able to get back up at all this season. On that basis, we would have needed support, absolutely. But what we’ve done is we’ve rallied internally, we’ve shared the pain amongst all the stakeholders, and we’ve gone back on the field. And we’re in a position, that we’ve created for ourselves, where we don’t need to lean on that. But we... It may have been very different. If this...if Australia hadn’t been so organised in managing this pandemic, and sports weren’t able to resume, it would be a far more catastrophic situation for all sports, not just for rugby league.

TRACEY HOLMES

Andrew, can I jump in and just ask how many people were stood down from the NRL, and how many of those will come back?

ANDREW ABDO

Yeah. So, I mean, when we initially powered down... So, I’m talking just, now, at NRL head office, we had the majority of our staff stood down, and a very small group of people working – working to manage the finances and to reorganise the season. At this particular point in time, we’ve started powering back up. So, we’re starting to bring people... And of course, through this period, many sacrifices were made by our teams. So, I remember the first meeting that I had to staff was via Zoom, and there’s nothing more impersonal than talking to a camera, knowing that there are a couple of hundred people at home, not sure about their future as employees. And these are people that are very passionate about sport. But we’re in the position now where we’re able to phase people back in. So, we have more and more people coming back to work, obviously taking into account social distancing and physical constraints. And then, ultimately, we aim to power right back up, but the point being we’ll look very different in the long term. We need to do that work. We need to think about what our new operating model looks like for the future.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Brendon Gale, is it similar for AFL? When you look across the community within your sport, is it going to be a different operation in the longer term?

BRENDON GALE

Yeah, look, I think so. And I think the questions have been... The points have been well made. We are not for profit. All our proceeds go into supporting our football teams, our many teams, our social impact, our community work. But the point worth making is good management requires good risk management. But no-one could really forecast a global pandemic of this nature. I mean, this is...this is unprecedented, it’s seismic, and it’s been a huge challenge. It’s...it’s affected participation around the country, our members, millions of members are fans. You know, we’ve stood down many, many, you know, staff, volunteers. Our players have had to take significant pay cuts. There’s been a real focus on managing costs to get us through this short-term, I guess, challenge. And, you know, we will have to reset. There’s great uncertainty around revenue. We’ll have to reset. We’ll have to sort of trim our sails accordingly. You know, we will continue to present the best version of our club, of our code, but there will be some changes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What will it look like, though? How will it be different? Are we going to see less of the flashy cars, the big parties? Is it going to be a less showy deal?

BRENDON GALE

Well, I think if you look at...if you look at the code that I’m involved with and our team, we’re an elite, I guess, high-performance sporting outfit. We’ve got a very strong development part, as well. So, we’ve got, you know, VFL teams, VFLW teams, women’s teams. We’ve got next-generation academy zones. We’re cultivating talent in various regions. And I think, inevitably, there will be more of a shift towards the elite...the elite forms of the game, in, you know, obviously, the elite men’s, and AFLW, elite women, which has...you know, obviously, has been, and will continue to be such a major growth story for our club.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, we’ve got some more questions...

SHARNI LAYTON

Brendon...

HAMISH MACDONALD

We have got more questions coming up on that, so I want to move to our next one. It’s a video question from Alex Richards, in Hampton, Victoria.

ALEX RICHARDS, HAMPTON, VIC

As we start to ease restrictions, and there are whispers of potentially having up to 25,000 people at the MCG for the AFL by Round 5, how do the stadiums and sporting bodies plan on handling safe social distancing to avoid a second wave of COVID-19 that would further set back, not only the sporting world, but the economy as a whole?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sharni?

SHARNI LAYTON

I think everyone just has to stick by the government regulations, at the end of the day. If they say you can have how-many-ever thousand people there, if you are at home, or if you decide to go to these games, like, please just be safe and keep your social distancing and still stick by the regulations. Don’t go in and be stupid and hang around too many people, where you could be more at risk in having it more contagious. And just don’t forget the importance of broadcast and that the broadcast numbers tell just as much of a story as the fan base. So, we know that you want to go along to the games. We definitely want you there. As an athlete, we love having a crowd there because we can’t hear the sound that you’re hearing on TV at the moment.

HAMISH MACDONALD

(CHUCKLES)

SHARNI LAYTON

(CHUCKLES) But, yeah, just turn on your TVs. But can I just say, like, especially for women’s sport at the moment, you know, the AFL, cricket – I know they’re not playing at the moment – and NRL, it’s not as catastrophic for them, but for sports like netball it is absolutely catastrophic because they can’t charter flights interstate, and be playing games, and keep that broadcast money coming in. And so, it is really...really dangerous at the moment for where the sport is at, and very scary for how far it’s come, and how far we’re pushing it. So, as soon as that comes back on, like, just turn the TVs on, really support the sports. We need to have women playing sport on TV again, just because, you know, bit of equality out there – everyone loves that. But just be smart with it. If the numbers are there and you’re allowed to go, it’s obviously for a reason, but, yeah, please, just still stick by the government regulations.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tracey, it’s easy to forget, given how much we’re sort of moving out of lockdown, that we’re in the midst of a global pandemic. There are real-life consequences if this goes wrong. The sports are taking on a lot of ambition, but with that, a huge amount of responsibility. If we’re talking about tens of thousands of people going through stadiums again, that comes with massive risks. Are they ready to take it?

TRACEY HOLMES

Yeah, it does. But, you know, like Sharni said, if you follow the restrictions and the guides that are put in place by the health officials in each various state... We just saw 2,000 people at the AFL game in Adelaide over the weekend, and, you know, the... all the officials there had high praise for the way the crowd handled themselves. And, you know, there comes a point, doesn’t there, where we do actually have to get back into the way we live. And following the health guidance is how you do that. And when they say that you’re allowed to go back in and fill the stadiums, or half-fill the stadiums, whatever the numbers are, then that’s what you have to do.

We are taking a risk, but I think, back in the beginning, when the NRL was the first one to push, and actually set a date, and say, “We’re going to be back by May 31.” And everyone said, “How can you say that? It’s going to be trauma. It’s going to be disaster.” And so far, they’ve handled it really well. The players have had specific rules put around them, and they’ve been very conscious of that. We had a game that was played tonight because it was delayed because there was some issue with one of the players’ children, you know, having COVID-19 at school.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, there has been a scare. What’s the plan, Andrew, if there is an outbreak in a team? What happens then?

ANDREW ABDO

Well, I mean, we’ve invested a lot into protocols. We’ve engaged with experts. We’ve taken this very seriously.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I’ve heard these lines before. So, what is the actual plan?

ANDREW ABDO

Well, they’re online, so they’re real. They are actual plans that...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, what’s the substance behind them?

ANDREW ABDO

Well, the substance is what just happened. Tracey just mentioned we had a...we had a board meeting on Sunday morning, at 8:30 in the morning, where we had advice on a very remote but possible risk to a player via one of their children being affected, potentially being infected, through a transmission at a school. We went through the protocols. We engaged the experts and went exactly through our plan and executed it. And that required us moving two games – one earlier, and another one to a different day. So, we’ve proven that we take this really seriously. We had the Dally M winner from last year, James Tedesco, miss a match because his temperature was slightly over, and he couldn’t get on an aeroplane.

 So, we are hugely respectful of the safety of the community, safety of our players, but I think that, if done properly, we can pull this off. We’re human beings, we long for... Sport brings people together. And getting back to watching a live...any sport live, within the right parameters, is a great opportunity for us to, again, reawaken the whole Australian community.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Well, it’s been a difficult time for a lot of athletes, but spare a thought for those that were planning to go to Tokyo for the 2020 Olympics. It’s now been delayed. We’re told it will be staged next year. So I’ve been to catch up with one of the world’s best wheelchair racers, whose Olympic dreams, for now, are on hold.

MADISON DE ROZARIO

I’m Madison de Rozario. I’m 26. I’m an Australian Paralympian. I primarily race marathons, but the longer distances on the track too. I’m the fittest I’ve ever been. I’m the fastest I’ve ever been. Physically, I’m in the best shape. Mentally, I was in the best headspace I’ve ever been for a Games, and the last World Championships, it was the biggest margin I had ever won by. So, yeah, the plan for 2020 had been in place for years.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Did you realise instantly that all of the plans had disintegrated?

MADISON DE ROZARIO

There was an announcement that came out that basically said the Games didn’t go ahead as planned, in 2020 they wouldn’t go ahead at all. And we knew at that point that it couldn’t go ahead. You know, it wasn’t safe, and it wasn’t in the best interests of the sport. I think sport has this incredible ability to transcend so many things, but not a global pandemic. And it wasn’t the time for it, and it was never going to happen.

I have this plan in place that, you know, spans like four years, every...you know, the four-year cycle is all planned out, it’s all mapped out. And so, to have that completely change is kind of jarring. Like, so much of what we do is structured around very specific things. And I feel like I’m very lucky I’m in an individual outdoor sport. So I can still train on the roads outside with my coach. And I’ve got rollers set up here, you know, in my apartment, so I can still do those roller sessions.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And how bored are you of staring at these walls?

MADISON DE ROZARIO

I’ve been training on my patio for months now, and I’m definitely over it! (LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

(LAUGHS)

MADISON DE ROZARIO

I think staying motivated for the session and trying to give 100% each time, it’s just so different to what it’s normally like.

HAMISH MACDONALD

How certain do you feel that Tokyo is going to go ahead?

MADISON DE ROZARIO

I don’t know. I... We’re planning for it to go ahead. So, every decision we make now is, Tokyo 2021 happening, end of August, going ahead. And I think that’s all we can do. I don’t know what it will look like, I don’t know if there will be spectators. So, everything we’re doing is with that in mind. But I wouldn’t be surprised if things changed.

HAMISH MACDONALD

The IOC has taken a pretty clear position on athletes taking a knee, signs of protest. What do you make of that?

MADISON DE ROZARIO

I do disagree with the stance. You have people whose voices wouldn’t otherwise be heard being given this huge platform that they have worked so hard for. And I think you are then entitled to use that authentically and use your voice to actually make a big change. And this isn’t an issue that’s trying to cause problems. It’s trying to solve a very important problem, and it’s a problem that is more important than sport is.

I’m lucky in that I am allowed to use my voice, and I’ve never been told that I couldn’t. And for me, doing what I’m doing out there does serve my community. I think, if you use the Olympic stage, the Paralympic stage, and you make real change, then that’s worth, I think, everything that comes from that. And that’s the big thing that sport does – it brings people together. And I don’t know why we’re kind of putting a limit on that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Madison de Rozario there. Sharni, you’ve been through some highs and lows in your career. Can you imagine what it’s like for someone doing that four-year cycle, prepping everything towards the Olympic Games, and having it sort of shut down right in front of you?

SHARNI LAYTON

Look, I’m not going to complain anymore about not knowing when the VFL goes ahead! (CHUCKLES) Until the end of the year. But, look, you really can’t, and as an athlete that has prepared for a World Championship and Commonwealth Games, she’s absolutely right. Like, you prepare that four years in advance. And, you know, it messes with your mind, your mental frame of mind. And just how driven they are to keep going is really inspiring. And, as it was mentioned, they don’t even know if Tokyo’s going to go ahead next year. But I just absolutely love the role model that she is. She’s an absolutely phenomenal athlete, phenomenal human. But, yeah, it is really tough to be able to keep your body in physical form for that amount of time.

And you’ve got to remember, like, these athletes and especially the Olympians, they’re not doing it for money. The only money they probably get is if they have an ambassador role or something like that with a company, which I can guarantee you probably isn’t even continuing as of now. I know a lot of athletes that I’m friends with that had ambassador roles have since been cut, because, obviously, the companies are struggling as well. And so the ability that they have to be able to juggle their daily jobs – if they currently still have one – and train probably twice a day, is really inspirational.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Well, our next question tonight is from Moya Dodd in the studio.

MOYA DODD

Thank you, Hamish. No effort’s been spared for the return of men’s professional sport. But meantime, the women have practically disappeared from view. What would it take to embed gender equality in the return of sport, rather than entrench the underinvestment and the institutionalised neglect that women’s sport has suffered for the last 100 years?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Moya, a bit about you – you’re a former Matilda. You feel pretty strongly about this, don’t you?

MOYA DODD

I do. I do. You know, I can’t help but think back to the moment 100 years ago when – it was after the First World War – and in England, when women were playing football during the war in the factories, they formed teams, and they got big crowds. And you can look at photographs from a century ago and see grandstands full of people watching women play sport. I mean, it is a saleable commodity. And it’s not that people aren’t interested or don’t watch, or that the women’s product is inherently inferior because women play it, that is just the great lie that we were told in the 20th century.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let me go to you, Brendon Gale, ‘cause you’ve already talked about your need, going forward, to prioritise some of the dimensions of your club. And, clearly, we’re seeing those priorities taking place across entire sporting codes. Is it true that, simply, the women’s league has slightly fallen off the agenda here?

BRENDON GALE

No. Absolutely not, Hamish. Look, you’ve got to remember Australian rules football, you know, for 100 years, was a sport played by men. It was coached by men. It was managed by men. The story of Australian rules football was told by men, broadcast by men. And yet here we are in 2020, we’ve got a female president, we’ve, um... The only president in the history of VFL-AFL football. We’ve got, you know, 40% of our directors are female, etc, etc. So... And we have this wonderful AFLW competition, which has been such a growth story for our club and will continue to be so. It’s made us a better club. It’s just normal. It’s normalised the whole environment, which was a hyper-masculine environment, and it says a lot about our club. It presents our club in a different way.

And as I said right at the start, we’re very passionate about diversity. So that will continue to be a priority for our football club. I know participation in Queensland, New South Wales, for example, has doubled in the last 24 months. So I’d imagine it’ll continue to be a very, very strong priority for the AFL as well.

TRACEY HOLMES

Brendon...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tracey, is it true that there’s been no damage done to the momentum in the women’s game, in multiple codes during this time?

TRACEY HOLMES

No. I just don’t think you can say that, because it’s just dropped completely off the agenda. And there was this momentum being built. For instance, you know, FIFA is going to announce in about 10 days, less than 10 days, where the next FIFA Women’s World Cup will be staged. And the joint bid by Australia and New Zealand is on top. And, in all likelihood, we’re going to get that. Now, if it was 10 days out from a men’s World Cup being awarded to Australia and New Zealand, it would be front page, back page, middle page, talkback radio, it would be everywhere. What have we heard about this women’s World Cup bid?

And that’s just one example. This is one of the biggest shows on the planet. One example where it’s just disappeared. And all the talk, all of the sports programs, all of the sports bulletins and results, once again, have gone back to, you know, five, six, seven years ago – it’s men, men, men, men, men, men. And I think that’s just a great disservice. And one of the things I was hoping that, when sports administrative bodies came out of this COVID-19 pandemic, that the realisation would be – “We are national governing bodies for a sport, not for the men’s team with a bit of specialty programs here, there and everywhere, for the other interest groups, but actually for the entire game for all people,” and that there would be a levelling.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, for someone like you, that’s fought your whole career as a journalist to get closer to even pegging for women’s sport, how do you feel about this?

TRACEY HOLMES

No, I haven’t. I haven’t done that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, I mean, you...

TRACEY HOLMES

But I think by virtue that I’m a female... I mean, I think it’s like Indigenous people, you know, they think you speak for all Indigenous people. And just because I’m female and I’m in sport, I haven’t spent 30 years, you know, waving a banner, saying it should... “This is all for women’s sport!” But I will definitely wave a banner for all people everywhere that sport is for everybody. So it doesn’t matter what colour you are, it doesn’t matter what sex you are, it doesn’t matter if you’re intersex or transgender or you have a disability, you know, sport is for all. And governing bodies represent that sport for all people, not mostly for the men with a bit of this and that for the other groups.

ANDREW ABDO

If I can, Hamish, I’d like to jump in and support Moya’s question, and also what Tracey’s saying. I don’t think it is for... I don’t think women’s sport has fallen off the radar. I think there’s obviously more that we can do, but... And I’d like to talk proudly about this. You know, the NRL has made a conscious decision to invest in our female pathway. Of course, there’s more that we can do. But... We have four State of Origin games that are going to be played in November. And, last year, the women’s State of Origin game had an audience of over a million people. So you’re right, Moya, people love the product. It’s an engaging game. And this year, we’ve confirmed that our NRLW competition will go ahead.

Now, it’s a small start. We have four clubs competing. But let me tell you, the enthusiasm and the vigour of our fans and our players for this product is phenomenal. I just want to give you a short example – when we... I had the opportunity to engage with the female playing group about the possibility of the competition going ahead. And I said to Tiffany Slater, who runs...who’s the GM of our female program at the NRL, I said, “Could we get the players together for a short Zoom call to get some feedback?” And within three minutes, I had 30 people on Zoom fully engaged. And so we’ve got a long way to go, but while the enthusiasm from our fans and from our players is phenomenal, people want this to be successful.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want to get to our next question. But, very briefly, Sharni, do you accept the argument that there’s been no damage done to the women’s league during this period?

SHARNI LAYTON

There’s been a huge damage, because I completely agree that we just haven’t got enough coverage. Tracey’s already obviously talked about the FIFA World Cup being here in Australia, with Matildas number seven, Opals are number two in the world, Diamonds, the netball team, are number one in the world, and also our Australian women’s cricketers are number one in the world. Yet not only, obviously at the moment, no-one’s playing, so we’re not getting any coverage, but when they are playing, they get the eyeballs on the screens.

But it’s up to the media outlets – start covering these sports. Because people want to watch them. We get the crowds there. You decide to cover it once in a blue moon at every World Cup, and then, all of a sudden, it disappears off the map. We have the WNBL that deserves recognition. We have all of the sports. People want to read about it in the paper, and it’s about time we do get equal coverage in all of that.

Last one for Brendon, because we’ve seen North Melbourne sack Scott Gowans who was the head of the...obviously, the AFLW team. They were arguably the number one team in the competition for AFLW this year, but you say AFL actually cares about the women’s program. We know AFLW is going ahead, which is fantastic, however, how much do the clubs actually care about their programs when they’re getting rid of their head coaches and giving the assistant coach to the men’s that head role who won’t be able to put the same investment into the women’s program? So why are the cuts coming straight to the women’s program rather than somewhere else in the club?

TRACEY HOLMES

Hamish, can I jump in very quickly? There’s some more research that’s coming out tomorrow. They do this twice a year. It’s True North. And it’s a benchmark of Australia’s emotional involvement with our teams. The top four teams in Australia are all women’s teams. The Australian women’s cricket team has just overtaken the Matildas, but the Matildas have been there constantly. So the top four teams that Australians have most emotional connection to are all female teams. The Diamonds are there too.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, congratulations to them. Well deserved as well. The next question is a video from Sarah Barrett in Angaston, SA.

SARAH BARRETT, ANGASTON, SA

I live in a regional area where netball is the go-to sport for girls and women. Now with the COVID restrictions, many of the country competitions across South Australia have abandoned the 2020 season. We know from pre-COVID research that teenage girls, particularly in the 15- to 17-year-old age bracket, leave competitive sport. Now with even less opportunity to play, these girls may miss out on proven benefits for their mental health and building resilience. But the impact is not just for the individuals but our whole communities. What can we do at the national and state levels to keep people involved in sport, particularly young women in country areas?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Bruce, community sport is clearly the lifeblood of so many communities right across Australia, and it feeds into every code that there is. Do you recognise the threat that it’s under right now?

BRUCE DJITE

Certainly. Community sport is the lifeblood of all sports, you know. I’m lucky enough to be involved in a sport that, by far and away, has the most participants in Australia. You know, there’s two million participants in football. And they’re doing it exceptionally tough, you know. And we talked about the finances pretty much all night tonight – you know, the economic impact of coronavirus. But the greatest impact for me is the impact at the grassroots level, and the damage that inflicts on what sport does – and that’s social inclusion.

You know, I came to this country as a two-year-old. I didn’t know anyone here. But what I did know was football. And I started playing football at my local club. It helps to break down so many barriers. When people come to this country, or they’re born here, it doesn’t matter where you’re from, going to your local club, your parents being able to work in the canteen, you being able to make friends that are outside your general school network, you know, the benefits that come from that social inclusion aspect of grassroots sport is immense.

And I certainly think that, you know, the government, especially the federal government, needs to make sure that these sporting organisations – I’m talking national bodies, Football Federation Australia in my respect – are there on the other side. They could not afford for some of these codes... If they’re on the precipice or if they don’t survive, they can’t afford that, because two million participants having the opportunity to embed themselves in a community, that can help people get jobs, that can help people feel embraced, they can feel welcomed. You know, there’s so many things you learn as a child – winning, losing. The educational outcomes, the health outcomes, the mental outcomes from grassroots sports are incalculable.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Bruce...?

BRUCE DJITE

I think that’s a critical point to make.

HAMISH MACDONALD

The Australian Sports Foundation has been conducting a national survey of the impacts of COVID-19. It’s actually not complete, but they’ve given us their preliminary findings. They’ve had over 4,000 responses so far, and they’re telling us that one third of community clubs say they won’t survive six months without financial support. That means something like 24,000 clubs are at risk. Does that shock you, the scale of that?

BRUCE DJITE

It does shock me, but...there’s a lot of shocking things that have been happening in the last couple of months. What I will say is that there is... No government, essentially, can afford to let that happen, because we all know what the economic impact is of people who are...who aren’t well – and by well, I mean mentally ill, you know, depression, feeling isolated, especially in this COVID era. You know, we have been forced to stay at home more than what we’d like. We’re not getting that person-to-person interaction, that human beings crave.

Those numbers are shocking. And, you know, I don’t personally believe that...you know, anyone would allow those sports to fall over, because there’s just too much at stake. I mean, it transcends everything, sport. You know, it brings the fabric of Australia together. We are a massive sports-loving nation, so... Elite is great. You know, everyone loves the Buddy Franklins of the world, the football stars of the world, but without grassroots sport, for me, sport doesn’t really exist.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question tonight is from Yusra Metwally in our studio audience.

YUSRA METWALLY

Thanks, Hamish. For many people, swimming is essential for maintaining both physical and mental health and wellbeing. It’s also an activity that can be done while maintaining physical distancing. Why has there been so much emphasis on getting our major codes onto the fields, but such little attention on supporting people get back into swimming to maintain their mental health and physical wellbeing?

HAMISH MACDONALD

This really goes to Bruce’s point just then. Sharni, I know you’ve had a lot to say on the mental health benefits of sport and the challenges that come with it, but do you see that, amidst all of the discussion about the big codes getting back on, there’s a lot of people that just need their sport, their pursuit, whatever it is, whether it’s swimming or something else, to be able to feel OK again?

SHARNI LAYTON

Absolutely, and, like, I just have to reiterate everything that Bruce just said about how important that is. And I think, at the end of the day, it’s unfortunate for, A, the codes that don’t have as much money as the bigger codes, and that makes us everyday Australians that want to get out and play our grassroots community sport, because, unfortunately...well, it’s not unfortunately, but for those bigger codes, they can charter flights interstate and they can stay in hubs and look after each other and make sure that they’re not infectious for COVID and all the rest of it. Whereas, at the moment, because all of our social sport is run by government regulations, we just have to keep sticking to it to make sure that we keep each other safe.

And I completely understand, as someone who has suffered from depression, swimming is the number one calming exercise, proven scientifically, to help you, so I am feeling for you right about now. I do encourage you to keep getting outside and walking and having chats with friends and being open and vulnerable during this time. I know there’s a lot of people struggling so much and so we just have to keep doing the best of what we can.

Pools are reopening, I know, in Victoria this week, so that’s really exciting news, and I hope it’s the same up there in Sydney for you. But make sure that you keep getting therapy, that you keep being open, OK, and talk about...talk about it if you’re struggling, whether it’s to your family, friends, reaching out to a counsellor, psychiatrist, psychologist. There’s nothing wrong with feeling down, especially in times like this, but we just need to be able to acknowledge it and address it, and hopefully we can get back to normal as soon as possible.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tracey, a big picture here with regards to community, sport, the individual pursuit stuff that everyday Australians participate in. Are you worried about us focusing too much on the need to get the big codes back up and running and kind of forgetting the grassroots side of it?

TRACEY HOLMES

No, look, and I try never to forget that, and I hope that sport’s governing bodies never forget that, because that is their lifeblood, and I do think they know that. In the last few years, there has been lots of discussion and concern around the fact that too much of the emphasis was being put at the elite end and, you know, the grassroots could kind of fend for themselves. And unfortunately, like Bruce said, that’s where... that’s where the heart of Australia is.

And when you talk about sport, sport contributes about 2% to 3% of GDP in Australia. It... For every dollar spent on sport, that the government invests, they get about a $7 return, because we’re talking about things like keeping people mentally well, we’re talking about people not becoming obese, we’re talking about having an active, healthy society, and this is one of the things that you would hope, during the COVID pause, that sport sat back and said, “We’ve got to get this balance right,” because we’re in trouble if we start heading…“it’s all about the elite,” and we forget about this middle ground here, and I think there’s a lot of people calling out for help there.

And unfortunately, there’s a lot of people that are going to be unemployed at the end of this – kids are not going to be able to afford sports fees, they’re not going to be able to afford football boots – this is going to have a ripple effect that will last for many years and, unfortunately, I think a lot of those clubs will actually fold.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Brendon, are you as aware of the grassroots side of this as Tracey hopes?

BRENDON GALE

Oh, look, certainly, it’s... You know, I think the importance of grassroots sports and football has been really well made by Bruce and by Tracey, so that’s not lost on me, and I’m sure it’s not lost on the AFL. The AFL has responsibility, as the governing body, for the development of the game and those pathways, and it’s the lifeblood for them as well, so, yeah, I don’t think it’s lost on them.

I mean, there’s a lot of balance in considerations and... But I know... You know, community football clubs, regional football clubs, they’re doing it very, very hard. I know the AFL is working closely with their state-based bodies and affiliates and providing them with the tools to navigate their way through these difficulties and provide support, along with the Australian Sports Foundation as well. So, no, I think it remains very, very important and will continue to do so.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question tonight is from John Miller in Toorak, Victoria.

JOHN MILLER, TOORAK, VIC

In the context of a most moving ceremony Friday night at the AFL footy between Richmond Tigers and Collingwood, when all the players knelt on one knee, I ask the panel – can sport, in the absence of dynamic leadership politically worldwide, facilitate the creation of a fairer, more just and a more inclusive society?

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, we’ve talked a lot about the difficulties facing sport right now, but clearly this moment has highlighted a lot of the great challenges the world faces. Bruce, can sport play a role in resolving some of the big challenges we face right now?

BRUCE DJITE

Look, I think with a great platform comes great responsibility, with great power comes great responsibility, and, you know, it’s the athletes that people want to hear speak, it’s the athletes that people want to see taking a stand to make society better. And society will not get better if we keep leaving people behind, if we don’t believe black lives matter. If those three words don’t sit comfortably with you, then that is the problem. Athletes understand it in the broad sense. Athletes are willing and able, as we’ve seen with the AFL and NRL in the last couple of weeks, to take the actions that they can take.

I mean, if we go back to what we were discussing earlier tonight, you know, I believe it’s the lack of cultural competence in the hierarchy of a number of different organisations, in a number of different sporting codes that is not bringing about the change as quickly as people would like. It doesn’t matter if it’s about racism. I tell you now, if there was an Indigenous person on the AFL Commission or AFL CEO during the time where Adam Goodes was getting racially vilified, it would have had a different reaction – the guy might still be actively involved in the sport. If there were more women in high-powered positions, entrenched in the sporting game, it would have greater media coverage, it would have greater investment.

Without the people with the context knowledge… You can read all the content, you can be across it all you like, you can read a thousand books – if you haven’t felt it and you don’t have that context knowledge, then you don’t get it. It’s impossible. It’s like me trying to understand what it’s like to be a female. I can listen, I can learn, but I can never feel what it’s like. I will never have that context knowledge. So, while there’s intelligent people, extremely smart people, extremely influential people in the hierarchy, as players, as administrators, if they don’t have the context knowledge, if we don’t entrench these people in the hierarchies of our sports, then change may come, but it will come much slower with many more regrets than if those people with those experiences, lived experience, were in those positions.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Brendon Gale?

BRENDON GALE

Hamish, yeah, look, I just think the future of sport is going to become even more important at a time when we’re so increasingly divisive and we’re so often labelled and people go to their camps and just yell at each other. I saw on the news the other day, if you wear a mask in the States, I mean, that’s even politicised. So, I think the business model with sport is about inclusion – that goes to the heart of our business model. So, it doesn’t matter of your wealth or status or your religion or ethnicity, if you can pick up a racquet or throw a ball and play your role, there’s a place for you in a sport, in the team. You know, so inclusion and social cohesion goes to the heart of sport, it goes to the heart of teaming. So... And I think, you know, sport, in that context, has a very important sort of social and cultural role to play in the future.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Sharni, can sport rise to the moment, do you think?

SHARNI LAYTON

Absolutely, and I just want all athletes to know just the power that they have in their hands and how much power they have in regard to also pushing those decisions within their clubs. You know, at the end of the day, if you’re in the top five of a sporting organisation and helping create success for them, you can really push for change within that club. It can be scary, it can be dangerous, but at the same time, it’s definitely worth doing. And, you know, you’ve got that responsibility as an athlete, whether you want it or not. You have so many people that look up to you – maybe not me, I’m not sure – but so many people that look up to you and, you know, really idolise what you do, so it’s a really great opportunity to show your values and to show what you stand for.

And sport is just the best catalyst for change, because, at the end of the day, like everyone said, it doesn’t matter who you are or where you’re from, if you support the Collingwood Football Club, if you support the Richmond Football Club, you can come together, and so it can definitely be that, and I hope that it continues to be that and we continue to make rapid change.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, that is all we’ve got time for tonight. Would you please thank our panel: Andrew Abdo, Sharni Layton, Tracey Holmes, Brendon Gale and Bruce Djite. And thanks to those of you at home for joining in and sharing your questions, and to you here in the audience tonight – great to see you here.

Next week on the program, please join me, we’re going to be looking at secrets, spies and hidden trials, balancing national security with your right to know. We’re going to ask the question – is Australia becoming a state of secrets? Hope you can join us then. Very good night.