Panel of Wisdom

HAMISH MACDONALD

Our panellists tonight bring lifetimes of experience and wisdom, across politics, business, the media, charity, and faith. They know how to struggle, how to teach, and how to come back from a crisis. They’ve got lots to say about how we, as a nation, should emerge from this unique time. So, we’ll get their take on political leadership, our difficult relationship with China, what gives them hope, and what brings them happiness. You’ve got lots of questions tonight, so let’s get you some answers. Welcome to Q+A.

Hi there. Welcome to the program. Joining me on the show tonight: journalist and author Kerry O’Brien; university chancellor Jillian Broadbent, who sat on the board of the Reserve Bank and remains on the Woolworths board, among others; former WA premier and adjunct professor at the University of Western Australia, Colin Barnett, who says our relationship with China is at a 30-year low; Gubbi Gubbi and Gurang Gurang man and pastor at St John’s Anglican Church in Sydney, Ray Minniecon; and CEO and founder of OzHarvest, Ronni Kahn, whose food rescue service now has an extra million mouths to feed since the outbreak of COVID-19. Please make all of them feel welcome.

And remember, as always, you can stream us on iview, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. #QandA is the hashtag. Every week, we invite our panellists to join in a robust but respectful debate, so, if you are getting involved on social media, we ask that of you too.

Our first question tonight comes from Meg Upton in Parkdale, Victoria.

MEG UPTON, PARKDALE, VIC

Hi, panel. Often the blame focused at boomers is economic – that they hold the wealth, the savings, have benefited from property purchase, negative gearing, and, more recently, franking credits. But what of some of the social changes that effected great change during the 1960s and 1970s such as women’s rights, no-fault divorce, childcare? Don’t current generations benefit greatly from such powerful social change? Does it always have to be an economic discussion?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ronni Kahn, I want to start with you. Are we too quick to dump on boomers?

RONNI KAHN AO, CEO AND FOUNDER, OZHARVEST

Absolutely.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Are we ignoring all of your wisdom?

RONNI KAHN AO

Definitely. Given that I’m one of them, I absolutely think we’re too quick to dump on us. However, there is $2.3 trillion worth of money that’s going to be transferred intergenerationally over the next 15 years. Now, let’s hope that we know how to use that well.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I should say that you’re all boomers. There’s one borderline boomer. I’m not going to name names here. But I want to ask your thoughts on this, Ray – do you think we’re too quick to dismiss older generations, particularly the boomers?

RAY MINNIECON PASTOR, ST JOHN’S ANGLICAN CHURCH, SYDNEY

In our culture, we don’t dismiss our elders. They’re a part of our community, and we respect them, we listen to them, and we want them to be a part of our community. So it’s... The boomer thing is not really a part of our thinking or our culture.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, what do you make of “the boomer thing”, as you describe it?

RAY MINNIECON

(CHUCKLES) What do I make of it? Look, we haven’t progressed, in terms of our economic developments anyways, as...from the 1960s onwards. We didn’t get our, you know... The referendum didn’t happen till 1967. So, coming out of that period of time there, we’ve had to negotiate some very, very rough times. And we still do negotiate through those social issues – the racisms and all those kind of challenges that we face, the health, the incarceration rates. All of those kind of things are part of our community’s challenges. And so the boomer situation, we would love to have, you know, big amounts of money locked away in our superannuation to live off, but that’s not our reality.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Kerry O’Brien.

KERRY O’BRIEN, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR

Well, I think it’s too simplistic to separate generations and say one generation is more selfish than another, as if there were some kind of conspiracy about it, some collective managing of our world. And that’s simply not the case. I think that, in many ways, we’ve been a lucky generation. And I was actually born six days after the war, so, technically, I’m probably just pre-boomer.

HAMISH MACDONALD

(CHUCKLES) I wasn’t going to identify.

KERRY O’BRIEN

Well, I will. I’ll happily be a part of that generation, because I think some great things have happened in that period. And we did live through the worst of the Cold War, and the great threat of nuclear war. But we did get to bask in the sunlight, post-war. But, you know, I’m a parent and, like every boomer parent, I would want at least as much, if not more opportunity for my children and my grandchildren than I had, and certainly than my parents had. And I don’t believe that’s going to be the case.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jillian Broadbent, do you see the way young people look at your generation today and say, “Look, they got a great deal on education, they got a great deal on their home, they got a great deal with their superannuation, and they’re having a great time as they move towards retirement, or live happily in it”?

JILLIAN BROADBENT, CHANCELLOR, UNIVERSITY OF WOLLONGONG

Well, I think some of that’s very true. And, as Ronni said, there is going to be this wealth transfer. And I think government has continually failed to address the generosity of superannuation. So I think there are some policies there that would make the attitude to the boomers a little bit less resentful.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But do you think young people are justified? I mean, the sorts of kids that go to your university, do you think they’re justified in feeling a bit hard done by?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

I don’t see that view as widespread as you say – this resentment of the older age. I mean, I think there is a certain amount of respect and recognition, especially with women, of the social change. I mean, as a female who stayed in the workforce, I get a fair bit of respect for persevering against adversity, I suppose. So I haven’t seen that resentment. But I do think there are tweaks to economic policy that could deal with some of the resentment that might be there.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK, then, to that point, let’s take this question from Oliver Pocock in the studio.

OLIVER POCOCK

Good evening. Young people face a myriad of issues in contemporary Australia, from chronic levels of unemployment and underemployment, rapid rises in cost of housing and cost of living, and now the social and economic hardships unleashed by the pandemic. However, many young Australians like myself do not expect charity or handouts from our leaders. We simply ask that the promise of a fair go, made to our parents and grandparents, extend to us as well. Does the panel believe that current policy settings are enough to address the challenges that are facing, and will face, my generation?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Colin Barnett?

COLIN BARNETT, FORMER PREMIER OF WA

Well, I think, for the baby boomer generation, I agree with Kerry’s comment – it has been a prosperous and safe time for most of the baby boomers. For the younger generation, I think most of us of my age are more concerned about the life facing our children, and particularly our grandchildren. It is going to be a lot more difficult. All sorts of issues are arising, almost on an annual basis. But I think our policy settings are pretty good. Let’s face it –  Australia, despite the COVID crisis, is a good place to be, is Australia, and I think we’ve got a lot to be confident in in the future. So I don’t have a huge problem. I realise there are issues that some people feel intensely about. But I think if you look across the board, Australia has been well governed, and I believe it will continue to be well governed.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What, then, are the policies that the boomer generation, Colin, have sacrificed for younger generations that are struggling now to buy a home, to pay back their HECS debt? What are the sacrifices?

COLIN BARNETT

Well, I don’t think the baby boomers have had to sacrifice much at all. I mean... And most baby boomers are really healthy – as you could expect for our age – most of them own a home, most of them have superannuation and the like. So, for most people, it’s a pretty good older age as it approaches. For younger people, it is going to be more difficult to own a home. And maybe, to some extent, the aspirations is above what is reality. In the ‘50s and ‘60s, most young couples went out and bought a flat or an old home and did it up. Now, those opportunities aren’t really there for many. Also, my generation had job security for most people. Young people today are going to have multiple changes of career, occupation and the like. And that’s going to be challenging. So, I think the baby boomers are stepping back, smelling the roses a little bit, and wanting to see good policy, sensible policies that are compassionate and are fair to all, as the questioner said. We do need fairness and equality in an egalitarian society, and I think Australia is in a good place.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you agree, Kerry?

KERRY O’BRIEN

I don’t think Australia is as egalitarian as we’d like to think, at all. When... I’ve read credible studies which tell me that Australia was a more equal society when I was a kid than today. And I know that Indigenous Australians would have cause to disagree with that, because, in many ways, they didn’t exist in those times, officially. And Mabo hadn’t happened. And there would have been no Indigenous person going through a university. But, nonetheless, today you have a situation where poverty is increasing year by year in Australia, one of the most prosperous societies on the face of the Earth, where 3.24 million Australians are living in poverty. Where 775,000 children are living in poverty. Where those figures are increasing, both in terms of percentage, as well as in real numbers. Where young people, according to the latest Productivity Commission report – and this is a government agency, the Productivity Commission – that under-35-year-olds’ wages have been going backwards for the last 10 years.

Now, these are just a few of the instances of the growing inequality, which I don’t believe is sustainable if we want to have a cohesive society and a civil society. And we’re going to... We’re already, I think, starting to see the polarisation and the breakdowns that are manifestly evident in the United States, the United States that has given us Donald Trump. And Donald Trump wouldn’t be existing, he wouldn’t be in the White House, if it wasn’t for those millions of disaffected people in America.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think we’re on that trajectory?

KERRY O’BRIEN

I think we are. I think we are...we are now a polarising society. Our politics are polarised. But the real fundamental failure in this country is a failure to have provided continuous quality leadership. I feel very strongly about it. I think our two-party system is letting us down. And both sides have to step up and face the responsibility for that. And I could go on, Hamish.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I’m...

RONNI KAHN AO

Well, it’s so refreshing to hear you, Kerry, because I think you’re 100% right. I think that we...

KERRY O’BRIEN

Sadly.

RONNI KAHN AO

..we, you know... I see this every single day. In the last five months, during COVID, there was gross inequality between how funds were distributed, how food was distributed, how people were affected through this pandemic. And it is absolutely symbolic of our society. We have to...we have to shift and change. And our leadership has to shift and change, and take responsibility.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But where has the leadership been lacking during this? Because we’ve had premiers standing up, we’ve had, at a federal level, our leaders standing up, listening to the science, chipping in with the funding where necessary. Why do you think the leadership has been lacking?

RONNI KAHN AO

Because, where they... First of all, it took them time to react. That’s number one. Number two, with the funding, if we hadn’t lobbied for the sector that I represent...

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’re talking about the charity sector.

RONNI KAHN AO

I’m talking about the charity sector, the essential services sector. There was not going to be funding for us. How come a sector that employs 1.3 million people, provides 8% of the GDP, had to fight to get a handout as opposed to equal distribution of funding? So I think our leaders, that are now squabbling between premiers, this is the time for them to actually come together and lead our country out of this crisis together, strongly, or within this crisis, rather than infighting.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ray, do you think leadership has been lacking during this pandemic?

RAY MINNIECON

Oh, most definitely. Even before...before the pandemic. Because, for Indigenous Australians, we felt like we’re being taken back on the old mission. I’m...I’m a product of the old mission, one of the last of the mission blacks, so I know what it was like before the 1967 referendum, and I’ve seen the progress that we have made, but also the incredible things that have been taken from us in terms of our advancement. And I guess we should be...Indigenous Australians should be a measuring stick of our ways forward.

We’d love to be part of the boomer cohorts, and have that kind of opportunity to...to retire with that, but you’ll see in our communities that our grandparents are looking after their grandchildren, and particularly our grandmothers. And they’re the ones with the heavy burden and responsibility, because the parents of those children are either in jail or...or they’re dead. It’s just a continuous challenge for them to actually meet basic needs on a daily basis.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Colin Barnett, you’re in the state with, I think, Australia’s most popular leader. Mark McGowan as Premier, I think, has the highest ratings in the polls of any leader in this country right now. Do you see the same failure of leadership that the folks here on the east coast are identifying?

COLIN BARNETT

Well, look, there has been a lot of squabbling in...in politics, including Australia, but I still think Australia is advancing as a country. On the COVID situation itself, the first wave, if you like, I think was dealt with well and Australia was feeling very proud of itself. Then things started to go wrong – the Ruby Princess issue in Sydney, the quarantine failures in Melbourne, and so on. And now there’s, more recently, aged care problems.

In Western Australia, Mark McGowan has done a good job, no doubt about it, and the hard border that’s been applied here has meant that for most Western Australians, the COVID crisis... And while some restrictions still apply here, life is pretty well getting back to normal. I think the major source of angst that I sense around the community is that...the stress that’s caused by not being able to reunite families. Family members on the east coast and, obviously, maybe parents on the West Australian coast can’t reunite, and equally going into people overseas who want to return to Australia.

But if the attention remains on dealing with the health issue first and foremost, I would hope, by Christmas, or well before Christmas, most of Australia would be basically back to a normal operation. There’ll still be some restrictions, there’ll still need to be health measures taken, but we are on track to do that, with a bit of luck, as long as we don’t get another outbreak like, unfortunately, happened in Melbourne.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jillian Broadbent, before we move on, I just want to get an answer to Oliver’s question. It was about young people and their perception of where the odds are stacked in Australia, and whether the policy settings are right. Before COVID, the Parliamentary Budget Office forecast that boomers, as a generation, would cost the government $36 billion a year by the year 2028-29. Today we’ve had Paul Keating and Kevin Rudd talk about superannuation, saying that this government is trying to destroy the super system. Do you see, from even just an economic perspective, where young people might be coming from on some of this stuff?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Look, I do see where young people are coming from, but I also think they...there has been advancement that they’re not recognising. Some of it’s the...the openness to accepting...being neutral about gender in male and female opportunities with jobs. But I also see, through the university, a lot of opportunities for young people who want to start their own businesses that would never occur when I was having a job.

So, Colin talked about people were in a job for life, or you might have had two changes of jobs, and it just happens to be that people change jobs a lot more times, and some of that brings opportunity and...and enthusiasm rather than being stuck in a job for a long period of time. So, the... the people I see at the university, I’m very impressed with their capacity to take advantage of... We...we have iAccelerate, you know, which is our incubator and accelerator, and it’s started 192 companies, you know, employing 800 people. I mean, they’re very small, but they’re all young people who have just graduated and going into these things. Those support mechanisms were never there even to find a job when you graduated when I finished. So, there are some good things about the more mobile society that we’re seeing.

But I wondered if I could comment back on this... I have the concern that Kerry has about inequality, but it’s been a global dynamic where the returns have gone to capital, not gone to labour. And that’s…

KERRY O’BRIEN

And how do you change that, Jillian?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Well, that dynamic...

KERRY O’BRIEN

In other words, not change it so that it all goes the other way, but that there is a genuine healthy sharing.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Yeah, well, that dynamic isn’t going to change. What you have to do is a recognition of it, measure the inequalities, and have policies that...that offset it. So, I do think the wealth-building has to be taxed a bit more heavily than...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But then, when you put the policies to the Australian public, like were put at the last election, the public votes against them.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Well, some of that is misrepresentation of the reality of the policies.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. So, you’re talking about things like franking credits?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Absolutely.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Right. So, you think something like that is necessary, so that a generation like Oliver’s...

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Totally necessary. Yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..doesn’t lose out?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question tonight. It comes from Yumi Lee in the studio.

YUMI LEE

My question to the panel is as follows – why is it that we as a nation fail to acknowledge that we have a problem with ageism, and that, compounded with the perils of privatisation in aged care, has led to the neglect, starvation and deaths of our vulnerable elderly in nursing homes? How else can we explain this tolerance that we have for one of the highest rates of aged care deaths in the world?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ageism – Ronni, does it exist?

RONNI KAHN AO

Look, it seems to absolutely exist if you look at what’s happened in our aged care system and how we have misaligned it. And there’s absolutely no doubt. I wish I had an answer for you, because the reality... And the whole discussion we had before is not taking account of the fact that we’ve just gone through and are in the middle of a pandemic, because it’s no good saying...talking about even education pre-COVID, given that budgets have been slashed, and now university, etc, costs money. But I think it sounds, and it is clear, that our aged system has failed us and needs to be redesigned dramatically.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Kerry, do you think ageism exists?

KERRY O’BRIEN

Of course it does. Of course it does. And I... Perhaps it’s a little harder for me, simply because I’ve still got some kind of a public profile, but I have plenty of friends, particularly women friends, who feel that they become more and more invisible the older they get. Now, that’s a very generalised comment, but it’s a generalised comment based on particular anecdotes.

I think also it has been really disturbing, I think, some of the comments that have come out of the pandemic related to aged people. And to the extent that it’s true that older people in aged care were denied access to hospitals when they picked up the virus and were showing nasty symptoms, simply because of their age, then I think that’s appalling. And when I hear comments that say that...that against the crashing of an economy, to preserve a few extra months of life for people in nursing homes who are only going to, on average, perhaps live for another 10 months... And I’m referring to Andrew Bolt, particularly, and I’m referring to him particularly because I noticed the other day he castigated one of the ABC presenters for...for quoting his claims without identifying him.

But whatever validity there is to a theoretical argument about weighing the greater good against the specific, the way...the ease with which we can sometimes toss off the value of the old… It’s not...it is not just what they can do for us now – and many of them still have great insights to give from their experience – it is the value they have brought to our country over their lifetimes, over the whole of their lifetimes, that is being negativised and dismissed. And I...I hope we can learn from that.

And I also think that...that, with all of the privatisations that we’ve seen over the last 30 years, I wonder now whether... With the cracks that this pandemic has exposed in our society, I wonder whether the debate really should not be started, with vigour and with direction, about those areas where we might consider a reversing the process, in particular...

HAMISH MACDONALD

You’re talking about aged care?

KERRY O’BRIEN

I’m talking about aged care as one where I think debate needs to be had.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But it’s not just in private aged care residences where this has occurred.

KERRY O’BRIEN

No, of course. Of course not. And I think it’s not just...it’s not just the private sector where...where profits and cost are primary driving motives. I think in the public sector too. As we know on the ABC, you know, the people who... I walk into this place now and it’s like a desert, and I keep hearing day after day of the next round of casualties, the experience that’s walking out the door of the ABC. So, the public sector is feeling the same heat – possibly more so, the heat. That doesn’t mean that the proposition is wrong.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ray, at the beginning of this conversation, you pointed out sort of different cultural approaches to ageing.

RAY MINNIECON

Yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you see ageism as a...as a real thing? Do you experience it yourself?

RAY MINNIECON

No, because we value our elders. They’re a very big asset to our community. We learn from them. I’ve sat at the feet of so many elders right throughout my life, and I still will sit at the feet of our elders to learn from them. And so they’re a part of our community. They’re an asset to us. We don’t see them as someone that you just put away in an aged care home and leave them there. They’re a part of who we are, and we want to continue to learn from them as much as we can.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, how do...how do you think about becoming an older person yourself? Does that add responsibility to your existence?

RAY MINNIECON

Yeah. (LAUGHS) Yes. I’m here tonight because of that.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, I mean, how does it shape your interaction with younger people, with...? How does it shape the way you think about what you want to leave behind?

RAY MINNIECON

It shapes a lot of things about what I want to leave behind, because I’ve looked back at the... You know, I walk in shadows of great Aboriginal leaders, great Aboriginal men, who have gone on before us and have left a legacy for us to follow and have left huge big footprints. I mean, you’ve got to look at some of the things that has been achieved in the ‘70s, like the establishment of the Aboriginal Medical Service. And that model now has been, you know, put...put right throughout our country. But that’s a model that...that we have created. The Aboriginal Legal Services. All of these little models have turned into something of a national...of national importance, so we know what it...we bring assets into it rather than deficits.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jillian, I think in 2009 you went with your friend Carla Zampatti to a Grace Jones concert at the Sydney Festival, and danced in the mosh pit.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Oh! (LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think ageing is just...?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Could I do that today?

KERRY O’BRIEN

Yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Would you still do that today?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Would she come with me today? (LAUGHS) Probably...

KERRY O’BRIEN

Don’t dodge the question.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Probably yes. But I do think we have to be very conscious of fitting...older people fitting in with younger people, and vice versa. It’s the isolation that is dangerous, because you can’t really make collective decisions about the aged if you don’t identify with particular people. And I think, if there are those decisions being made, it’s...it’s an isolation which has not got the affiliation that Ray talks about. So, I think we should all work on that affiliation.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Our next question tonight comes from Mark Salmon.

MARK SALMON

Well, we’ve... This is a lot to do with international politics, but, recently, we’ve just heard from the Australian government, saying that they are proposing legislation that is going to restrict the foreign involvement of countries in Australian life. And to do with that, there is a lot of... So, the question really becomes, is it foreign governments or...possibly the people who work for the governments, or are associated with foreign governments, and is any of that going to be retrospective?

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. So, we’re talking about the Foreign Relations Bill here. The legislation was introduced to parliament this week. It’ll give the federal government the power to cancel agreements that states, territories and local governments, as well as universities, enter into with overseas governments. And, obviously, a lot of people have been talking about the Belt and Road Initiative Memorandum of Understanding that was signed by Victoria.

Colin Barnett, you were the premier of a state that does an enormous amount of business with China. Obviously, the federal government is at pains to NOT say this is about China. How do you interpret it?

COLIN BARNETT

Well, it IS about China. I would not have signed the Belt and Road Initiative that Victoria signed. And Mark McGowan, WA’s premier today, also said he won’t sign it. I think that does go close to endorsing the foreign policy of another country. And defence and foreign policy are clearly the responsibility of the Commonwealth government. Now...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s just tease that out. Why does it go to forming separate, state-based foreign policy? What is it about the Belt and Road Initiative? Because Victoria says, “Actually, this is just about investment, and more so than ever we need a good pipeline of money coming in for investment post-COVID.”

COLIN BARNETT

Well, the Belt and Road Initiative is China’s prime international foreign economic policy, and political influence is there. So, if it was confined to what you have just said, I don’t have a problem.

Look, for nearly 30 years, I’ve visited countries that are important to Western Australia, particularly around minerals, iron ore, natural gas and so on. I’ve had meetings with ministers of foreign countries, prime ministers, presidents. In every occasion, the conversation has remained on economic issues, particularly about resource development and some other sectors. Not on any occasion has it ventured into foreign policy or defence policy. And, on every occasion, I’ve been assisted by Australia’s embassies overseas, and if they wish to, embassy officials, and often the ambassador, was very welcome to come to any meeting I attended. So, I think the issue here is the Belt and Road Initiative and Victoria. If that’s what it is...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Given what you’ve just described, though, what’s the risk of this legislation? Does that stymie some of those relationships? Does it make that work harder? I would imagine that the bulk of the really big deals that WA would be doing with Chinese-based companies would be companies that are either wholly or part state-owned.

COLIN BARNETT

Yes, most of them are state-owned enterprises, and the deals are big deals about big resource projects – Australia’s biggest projects. I think it is unnecessary to have this legislation. It will stymie relations. You will find, instead of agreements that are reached being formalised and open to all scrutiny, you’ll probably get just more informal arrangements taking place. So, the relationship between, if you like, state premiers travelling internationally and the embassies will probably become weakened and less obvious to outsiders. So, deal with the issue, and if it’s the Belt and Road Initiative, do it.

And also, what an incredible layer of bureaucracy, and what a patronising attitude it would be that, if a state premier wants to go overseas, he’s got to get permission for who he talks to, or she talks to. That will never, ever happen. Should local governments have to go to the Commonwealth to have some little sister-city relationship with somewhere in the world where it may be students that travel or arts groups and the like?

I mean, this is complete overkill and totally unnecessary and, in my view, just simply will not work. Western Australia, other states, will continue to develop their economic policy. They’ll continue to do arrangements with other countries. And one thing that’s forgotten – this is not the states getting involved in foreign policy. If you’re talking about, for example, mineral resources, the state is the owner. It’s got a government’s role and it’s also got a commercial role in getting a good return for the people of each state and the country as a whole, so I just really cannot understand.

In fact, I’d make the point right now – one of the things we should be doing is toning down this bickering with China. It’s doing Australia and Australians’ confidence a lot of damage. There are some important issues with China. Their presence in the South China...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Well, can I ask why so? Isn’t it important that Australia draws a line in the sand on a whole range of issues? Whether it’s Chinese influence in our university campuses, whether it’s the exerting of influence on some of our neighbouring countries, why shouldn’t Australia define its values more clearly and publicly?

COLIN BARNETT

Well, that’s foreign policy. That’s up to the federal government, and I don’t have any qualms with some of the things, but the two big issues that I think matter to Australia...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, on the one hand, you’re saying that’s foreign policy, but you don’t want sort of rhetoric that you think damages the relationship?

COLIN BARNETT

Well, we ARE damaging it. The two big issues that I think affect Australia are the South China Sea – the increased military presence there – and obviously a lot of concern about what’s going on in Hong Kong. Issues here are relatively minor. I don’t see evidence, certainly in Western Australia, of interference on campus. Yes, we shouldn’t have foreign donations into political campaigns. That’s...that’s basically gone.

But we are picking issues and picking fights with China that we simply do not need to do. They understand – China well understands – that our relationship with the United States, through the ANZUS Treaty, is at the very centre of our foreign policy and defence policy. They have never, ever raised that with me in 30 years, and I suspect the same would be with other state premiers. The states are on about economic development. The Commonwealth is included. If you go down this way, you’ll start to find the flow of information will not be as it has been and as it should be.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Jillian Broadbent – overkill, this legislation?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

I think it’s a bit of overkill. I was... The universities and the federal government came to an agreement in November 2019 about an arrangement of how to deal with foreign…possible foreign intervention. And it was all done fairly quietly, and there’s a code of behaviour, and you... And Australia’s always been very...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I mean, it wasn’t that quiet. I spoke to the federal education minister about it a number of times. I mean, it was done pretty publicly.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Oh. (CHUCKLES) Well, it wasn’t as... It didn’t poke the panda as much as this has, I suppose.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Right.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Or I didn’t see it aggravating the relationship as much as I think this has the danger of doing. But we’re... Because we’re a small country, this collaboration and cooperation and research and ideas and thinking has always been leveraging our own capacity. So, the states going and making their own relationships, trying to develop their own industries, I think we have to recognise that does benefit us and we want to maintain it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Kerry O’Brien, it seems pretty clear that China is trying to teach Australia a lesson for taking the position it took on an international investigation into the origins of COVID-19. Why shouldn’t Australia take a stronger position on matters of value?

KERRY O’BRIEN

I think Australia has to have a very clear sense of its own value system, but it also needs to have a very clear sense of how to underwrite the stability of our own future, and I think our very future is at stake here. And there is nothing I’m going to say that suggests that we should pander to China, or any other country, but there are many times we have pandered to the United States when it might have been in our own best interests – and even the United States’ interests – to present an alternative viewpoint, like going into the Iraq War, for instance.

And I think, regardless of the Prime Minister’s insistence on talking about “countries” rather than China, we all absolutely know, as Colin has said, that he’s talking about China, and... And there is a kind of double standard here, and there is a hypocrisy, and I’ve lost count of the number...

HAMISH MACDONALD

What...

KERRY O’BRIEN

..of politicians, of both sides, who’ve told me over the years, jokingly, about how their trips have been...their trips to America have been sponsored by the CIA. I mean, this is not a new thing. Maybe it’s more overt in some ways. And I don’t like aspects of China’s authoritarian status and...and so on, and their treatment of minorities. And I don’t like any attempt to bully us as a nation. But, at the same time, I am really concerned...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But isn’t that exactly what’s happening with the tariffs on barley, the investigations into our wine trade? Isn’t that exactly what IS happening?

KERRY O’BRIEN

What I am concerned about, Hamish, is that...is that prime minister after prime minister has said that Australia doesn’t have to choose sides between America and China, and yet there is this sense that that is what we are now doing. We are in the age of Trump. We’re watching Trump to try and...try and rebuild some popularity as he faces defeat at the next election, increasingly seeking to paint China as the enemy in the United States, and there is a sense that we are following, not quite in lockstep, but not that far behind. There is something of the same optic about it, and I’m starting...

And the other thing is that Australia’s advice is being taken...Australia’s decisions are being taken on the advice of our intelligence agencies, and we have no way of being able to scrutinise the import of, and the authenticity of, the material that’s coming. And we have seen intelligence agencies in this country make mistakes in the past. Quite dangerous mistakes at times.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But to be fair to this government, though, when Marise Payne and Linda Reynolds went to Washington recently, they were eager to demarcate Australian policy on issues to do with trade, particularly from the US position.

KERRY O’BRIEN

And yet, at the same time... At the same time, Hamish, the Prime Minister has said that the United States is our past, our present and our future.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you disagree with that, in terms of our security arrangements?

KERRY O’BRIEN

I would seriously question that we can so blithely say that the United States is our future. What, 30 years from now? 40 years from now? 50 years from now? And what if the United States, under another president, decides that it’s not going to be so aggressive to the Chinese, actually decides that it can’t maintain its hegemony in Asia, and that it has to share power with China, and that China will become the natural superpower of the Asian region? How will Australia feel then as it has to walk back from its position?

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, what do you envisage? Australia siding with China over the United States?

KERRY O’BRIEN

No, I don’t. No, I don’t. I see Australia endeavouring to play, as much as possible, the role of an honest broker between the two, and having strong, healthy relationships with both, and having the courage and the foresight to express our concerns about the policies of either of those superpowers when we disagree with them.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright.

KERRY O’BRIEN

But doing it diplomatically.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s take our next question. It’s a video from Clare Morrison in Hawthorn, Victoria.

CLARE MORRISON, HAWTHORN, VIC

The pandemic has exposed flaws in the Federation. In the panel’s view, should the states surrender all rights over their borders, given some premiers appear to have sealed their crossings for political rather than health reasons?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ronni Kahn, the borders.

RONNI KAHN AO

It’s a challenge, the borders. I think that each state has to protect their citizens. I think that doing it in a way that is both diplomatically as well as...in the most safe way. So, I understand why there have been times when the borders need to be closed.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ray Minniecon, particularly in Western Australia and the Northern Territory, the closure of borders has been crucial to protecting remote Indigenous communities. What do you make of big businesspeople demanding that the borders are reopened urgently?

RAY MINNIECON

One of my issues with the ways in which the pandemic has been dealt with by our governments has been we’ve gone for a suppression policy rather than eradication policy. If we would have went down along the lines of New Zealand and eradicated it... That’s the policy that our leadership went.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But it didn’t quite work for New Zealand.

RAY MINNIECON

Oh, yeah, but after they’ve eradicated, they can put a quarantine around those places where...in those hotspots. And so, our communities locked down a long time before the...all the governments in Australia locked down. We went ahead with that and quarantined all of our communities, and they’re still under that kind of quarantine lockdowns, just for our own protection.

We do know, now, that where the pandemic has influ...or, you know, come amongst our people is in the cities. And it seems like a city-centric pandemic more than a rural pandemic. And so, the biggest number of Aboriginal people, now, who are affected by the pandemic in the last, say, month or so has been in Melbourne. And we’ve got a high rise there, but very, very few here in Sydney, where we’ve got a higher population. And there’s a few others in more...other parts of the country there. But our services, our NACCHO services and all these other services, and our Aboriginal doctors are keeping a very close eye on it, and giving the best advice to our communities so that they can make the best decisions they can.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Colin Barnett, the suggestion in Clare Morrison’s question there is that the borders are being closed for political, rather than health reasons. Is that how you see it in WA?

COLIN BARNETT

No. I don’t. The closure of the border in Western Australia, hard border close, has been the most significant and effective way in limiting the coronavirus in Western Australia. I think the same’s probably true... It’s true for Tasmania and South Australia and Queensland. Although Queensland, obviously, more difficult because of a highly populated border zone, as you’ve got between New South Wales and Victoria. So, where it can work, it should be used, and I think we should maintain it. Hopefully, along with other measures that can be relaxed, if not removed totally, by the end of the year.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What do you make of all the pressure that’s being mounted against some of the states for having border closures? I mean, do you feel that the federal government is on the losing side of this argument?

COLIN BARNETT

I think, in terms of people’s attitudes, yes. And what we’ve seen, during the course of this pandemic, is that, initially, it was very much being run by federal parliament and the Prime Minister, and so on. Now, the situation is being managed, really, by the states. And I suspect that’s resented in Canberra, but, you know, people need to start to work together. And one of the best things we could do straightaway is to stop the bickering between the states, and between the states and the Commonwealth. That’s important. If we did that, we’d make progress more quickly.

HAMISH MACDONALD

As a former premier, do you think this situation has sort of highlighted where the power actually sits at this point in time, between the states and the Commonwealth?

COLIN BARNETT

Well, I’ll give an odd answer to that. There are two million public servants in Australia, across three levels of government. 78% of them are state public servants. Now, that tells you one thing – in managing services for people, like in the pandemic and like in aged care, it’s actually the states that have people on the ground. And I think there’s a... We need to go back to some of the original concepts of the Constitution. The federal government is good on financial matters, it’s good on policy matters, but actually managing problems and services for people, that is better done more locally. And I think you’ve seen that in the aged care situation. I don’t think the states want to take responsibility for aged care, but that’s a classic example of policy getting away from pragmatic people on the ground who can actually deal with the situation.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Our next question is a video from Eve Elliott-Smith, in Cairns, Queensland.

EVE ELLIOTT-SMITH, CAIRNS, QLD

The Reserve Bank of Australia states that climate change is exposing financial institutions, and the financial system more broadly, to risks that will increase over time if not addressed. The by-product of gas extraction, methane, is 80 times more powerful than CO2, in terms of global heating. New gas infrastructure will take several years to come online, and historically, the industry has employed a very small percentage of Australia’s workforce. In a decarbonising global economy, can you explain how a gas-fired recovery from COVID-19 will provide our children with a safe environment and prosperous economy?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Now, I want to go around the panel on this, but, Ray, I do need to ask you to explain for the audience. When our producers tested your thoughts on a gas-led recovery, you laughed hysterically – why?

RAY MINNIECON

Because I just saw the country...passing wind.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Kerry O’Brien, a gas-led recovery – is that the answer?

KERRY O’BRIEN

Passing too much wind. Well, the basis on which it’s being sold is that it would be a useful transition from a totally...from a fossil-fuel base to a renewables base because it is a cleaner fossil fuel than coal. But I’m also paying heed to 25 leading Australian scientists, including some of our most eminent climate scientists, in a letter they wrote to the chief scientist who was making this argument for gas, saying that it has no part, even in the lead-up to the future. And saying precisely that point – about the threat of methane gas to global warming. So, I don’t understand, I think, the finer points of this enough to be definitive in my own mind, but what I do know is that front and centre of our fight against climate change has to be renewable energy...

RAY MINNIECON

Yeah.

KERRY O’BRIEN

..and it has to be fostered, supported, encouraged and led from the front by the government. Otherwise, I don’t believe they’re going to be credible in trying to convince us, going into the next election, whenever that is – quite possibly next year – that they have a credible policy on climate change.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jillian Broadbent, you ran the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, since disbanded by the early iterations of this federal government. Do you see gas as a transition fuel? I mean, the science, or the arguments that contest it...

JILLIAN BROADBENT

I do see gas as a transition fuel. I don’t see a gas-led recovery. I think that’s not setting us up for the future the way we should be set up for the future.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What about a pipeline from Western Australia?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

No, I think that would be a stranded asset in about 20 years, or maybe even 15 years.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And would it, in your view, lock Australia into gas for much longer than it needs to be?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

It’s probably what it would do, because they’d be... Whoever would own the asset, would be claiming political risk or you can’t have a stranded asset. And before you know it, we’d be stuck on gas when we shouldn’t really be stuck on gas, because as Kerry said, the answer is distributed energy, renewable energy, technology energy efficiency, pumped hydro. There’s just... Gas is very cheap at the moment, so this story is getting a bit of traction. But, I mean, gas won’t be cheap forever. It’ll...the price will go up again, and then we’ll be left with a legacy – not only a stranded asset, but an expensive power source.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Colin Barnett, “a stranded asset” and “an expensive power source”.

COLIN BARNETT

No, look, before COVID-19 came along, the biggest economic issue facing Australia was the energy crisis on the south-east coastline area, particularly New South Wales and particularly Victoria. Australia has a lot of gas. We are the world’s biggest exporter of gas, and about 90% of that gas is off the western and northern coast. You can build a pipeline very quickly – probably cost about $5 billion. A pipeline of 1,500km was built from Karratha to Perth back in the 1980s, and it was built in one year. So, it’s not difficult to do.

It will provide an energy source that is reliable. Ironically, it will help bring on more renewables, because it will balance the system. You even need it for the Snowy 2.0 project to pump the water up the hill so it can flow back down the hill. And you’ll see a transition. Hopefully, if gas is brought across, jobs will continue, people will have gas for heating and electricity generation, and the like. And what we’ll see, I suspect, is as coal gradually declines, gas will fill that void.

Overall, the policy, I think, should be, have reliable energy, change the mix progressively so coal does decline, renewables increase, and gas increases to fill that void. And you will see, then, I think, a better energy mix. And gas – yeah, sure, there’s greenhouse emissions from gas, but it is less than half of the greenhouse emissions from coal, and on the east coast, Australia is highly dependent on coal. We’ve got gas – we should use it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just need to bring Jillian Broadbent in on...

COLIN BARNETT

Mm.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You are, really, the expert on this panel. Do you accept these arguments?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

I don’t.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Why?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Well, I...because I think it’s... The story of coal was oversold, and I think this story sounds like it’s being oversold on gas. I mean, Colin says we’ve overcome the shortage of energy demand in south-east Australia. So, we don’t need the gas pipeline.

COLIN BARNETT

Sorry, Jillian, you haven’t.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Well...

COLIN BARNETT

You haven’t. As soon as COVID’s over, it’s going to be back as number one issue – the energy crisis on the east coast.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Well, I...

KERRY O’BRIEN

Colin, we’ve got abundant sun. We’ve got abundant wind.

COLIN BARNETT

Yep.

KERRY O’BRIEN

I mean, all our... You know, coal was abundant. Coal is still abundant, but that, alone, is not enough.

COLIN BARNETT

Well, Kerry, if you just want to...Kerry, if you just want to put the world on hold, or straight on hold for 20 years, I’d agree with you. But we need to change the energy mix, and we have the best options in the world. We’ve got all those energy sources, and I’ve had world leaders say to me, “Why don’t you use some of the gas for yourself? Because we’ll buy the lot.” And that’s what’s going to happen if we don’t use it to balance and have a reliable energy source. Look...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But Jillian Broadbent is not the only person that argues...

COLIN BARNETT

I know.

HAMISH MACDONALD

..a gas pipeline would be a stranded asset. I mean, that’s a pretty widely-held view, isn’t it, Jillian?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Obviously not in Western Australia, it isn’t. But I think it is a quite widely-held view about... I mean, it’s a transition source of energy. And Colin’s right – it does fit in quite...quite well to a combination, as we transition to more renewable. But to build an infrastructure that brings it over to the east coast, I think, is certainly going to be a stranded asset.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question tonight. It’s a video from Simon Forbes in Alice Springs.

SIMON FORBES, ALICE SPRINGS, NT

Hi, panel. How is it that Australians all accept such an overrepresentation of First Nations people in our justice system as normal? Every single person in juvenile justice in the Northern Territory is an Indigenous Australian. And about 95% of the Alice Springs Correctional Centre population is an Indigenous Australian. The rest of the nation accepts this, despite national inquiries, royal commissions, and so forth. When will we genuinely start addressing the social determinants of this abhorrent reality?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ray.

RAY MINNIECON

Yes, there is... The pathway for a lot of Aboriginal children is from school...to jail. And there is... We don’t have a crossroads there. It’s just a...it seems like a freeway, a highway. And we, as Indigenous peoples, have tried to put that crossroads there, but it’s not being supported enough.

I know, here, in Redfern, for example, we’ve got a Clean Slate Without Prejudice program, which is trying to put that crossroads there, between our community and the police, and the jails. But that’s our pathway. And inside those jails, there, you’ve got your uncles and your mothers and your fathers. And the child, out here, “I want to go and see Dad.” Well, that’s a... it’s a straight pathway. So, we know what the issues are, but we don’t have the incredible resources necessary to be able to put in a crossroads there.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think it’s just about resources, though?

RAY MINNIECON

Well, there’s a lot of money spent on new jails, and it shouldn’t be spent on that. It should be spent on the educational sector, so that our children do get a better opportunity at education, and to be able to make their own decisions on what they want to do with their lives. And, I mean, the system has…there has failed as well. But we know that the pathway there, from our families to the schools, we don’t have the cross path there. We don’t have a wall there to say, you don’t have to go to jail, there’s another way out of this. And the only way we can do that is to really look at the education system and say, listen, you’ve got to pick up your game, make sure that you’re doing the best you can to ensure that our children get the best education, so that they can make the choices and the decisions they need to make for their own future and for their families.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ronni, I know you’re always interested in solutions. You, sort of, tackle complex problems. Do you see solutions in this area that aren’t immediately apparent?

RONNI KAHN AO

I think, when you rob a nation of their culture, you lose the ability... Somewhere along the way there is such a void that has to be filled. We have got to…we’ve got to put Indigenous culture back into the full education system, not just for Indigenous people, so that we all understand and value the loss, so that all along the pathway we start restraining the system.

I mean, they can’t have to get... It’s not about getting to the crossroads. We have to prevent them getting on that path in the first place. And that is about equality. We have to bring out the bad word – it’s racism. We have to deal with these things and, quite honestly, it has to start at the top. It’s back to that leadership issue. It’s back to, how do we treat all people equally? It’s about equality.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Kerry.

RAY MINNIECON

And we’ve got to start with the…not in kindergarten, but before kindergarten, preschool. So that our children are actually educated before they get into the system, so that by the time we get to that Year 12, there is a path. And I’ve…you know, I’m a part of a school that’s shown that that can happen. So it’s not that difficult to do, but it does need a lot of resources.

KERRY O’BRIEN

I think one very obvious way, when we talk about education, how about a proper education of the police around Australia and the way they implement the law? And of the whole justice system. And I don’t know the status of courses relating to history, culture, tradition, the colonial heritage in the police academies around Australia. but it’s evidently not enough. I don’t know how often... I don’t think I’ve heard a police commissioner publicly and repeatedly urging…showing the leadership publicly, as well as privately, and urging their respective police forces to actually learn more and come to a better understanding of those things in which Indigenous Australians have been deprived, often brutally, often savagely, over centuries. That has to be very much a part of the education process.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Even if it were to change today, when you reflect on your lifetime and changing attitudes, even the things that are recognised currently, how do you reflect on what you missed, what you didn’t learn early on?

KERRY O’BRIEN

Well, I mean, it’s only relatively recently, when I was writing a book about it, that I discovered the full extent of my own ancestors’ share of the spoils. They came as convicts, but did very well out of the Indigenous dispossession as pioneers, moving through New South Wales up to Queensland, driving herds of cattle and so on, and the kind of massacres and atrocities that took place through their history – nothing from them specifically that I was able to determine. And they were highly respected by white communities, but they were a part of a process of dispossession.

I’ve seen it as a journalist. I’ve been covering Indigenous issues for 50 years. I’ve watched the two steps forward and one step back and the one step forward and the two steps back. I saw Australians divided over the whole issue of Indigenous and non-Indigenous engagement in Australia through the Howard years. I thought that, on this issue particularly, John Howard was a divisive Prime Minister, and the evidence is there to support that. And I think we still pay a price and our Indigenous Australians still pay a price for that.

I think we non-Indigenous people have a huge responsibility to educate ourselves a lot better. I had no education. My generation had no education. We had to educate ourselves as adults rather than as children.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

RAY MINNIECON

Two things that could happen there – one is I think that the federal government needs to remove immediately the Northern Territory Intervention. That’s been the most brutal, devastating action by a prime minister that’s ever been perpetrated on our people. That’s the first thing. They can remove that tomorrow and it would free us up, especially us men, to be able to participate more in our communities and take out all those bureaucrats from our communities.

The second thing is we need to reread the royal commission into black deaths in custody. Because those 370-odd recommendations, the only one that really became public was one of the last ones. I think it was 38...

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

RAY MINNIECON

..on reconciliation, on the process of reconciliation. But even that’s flawed.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

RAY MINNIECON

But that royal commission into black deaths in custody gives all the information that we need in terms of the ways in which we can implement those recommendations. But they have been overlooked.

KERRY O’BRIEN

And that was 1987.

RAY MINNIECON

1987.

KERRY O’BRIEN

That was commissioned by Bob Hawke. 1987.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s take our last question tonight. It’s a video from Samuel Thompson in Woolloomooloo, New South Wales.

SAMUEL THOMPSON, WOOLLOOMOOLOO, NSW

They say the secret to happiness is having something to do, someone to love and something to look forward to. But we’re living through an ecological disaster, in a world that feels like it’s on the brink of war, and there’s so much negativity around. So, wise panel, my question for you is, what is there to look forward to? What is there to be hopeful about?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Jillian, are you hopeful?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

About what?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

Oh, well, uh... (CHUCKLES) I’m not hopeful about a gas pipeline. But I am hopeful that... I mean, we talk about the... I think the education on Indigenous issues is getting better. And we’re all – perhaps it’s self-education – but I’m hopeful that we will move forward on that. I’ve lost faith in the federal government, but if I take the University of Wollongong, we’ve signed an agreement with the New South Wales Aboriginal Land Council to improve education at school and university. And Woolworths has a program to specifically focus on Indigenous people. So for the organisations I’m associated with, I’m...

HAMISH MACDONALD

This is not about them, this is about you. What do you hope?

JILLIAN BROADBENT

It takes me down about hope. You have to have hope on big things and you have to have hope on little things. So I have some hope on some of those big issues. But coming back to, I think we will get through this COVID crisis. I think it’s probably going to be a bit more like a marathon than a sprint, but I think we’ll get through it. So I do have hope about that. I have hope about health and vaccines and research at universities that do extraordinary things. So my experience with the university always encourages hope, because we’re so creative, and the research and the intellectual infrastructure that’s there.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

JILLIAN BROADBENT

So...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Colin, this question was also about happiness and the ingredients to happiness. What makes you happy?

COLIN BARNETT

I just enjoy life, very simple. But I do have hope and I’m optimistic for our future in all fronts.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Come on, that’s a political answer.

COLIN BARNETT

No, it’s not.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want something about you. What makes you happy?

COLIN BARNETT

Well, playing tennis makes me happy. Working on our little farm makes me happy, you know. I do want to make a comment about the...going back, because I think happiness and the future and the Aboriginal issues are all entwined. Western Australia is providing a good example, I think.

A few years ago, a settlement was reached over native title for Perth and the south-west of Western Australia. In value and in land area and in economic opportunity, and the numbers of people involved, it will be the biggest settlement of native title in the past and into the future. A price tag of $1.2 billion funded by a little state government. And that, hopefully, will give – and I hope Ray agrees – that, hopefully, will give Aboriginal people a rejuvenated sense of pride and confidence and optimism and that economic opportunity.

So I agree with the comments made about the incarceration of Aboriginal people, particularly young kids. But, boy, there’s some really difficult issues in a lot of suburban areas but particularly in remote locations and country towns. And if I can make one final comment, one of the problems is too many services. One small town in Western Australia, Roebourne, with a population of around 1,500, at one stage had over 60 government services – state, local, university, the lot.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

COLIN BARNETT

A complete confusion. Let’s keep it simple and give people real opportunity and support that and make sure... And the health system’s pretty damn good.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

COLIN BARNETT

And the education system is pretty good too.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You can take the man out of politics... Ray, we’re going to have to go through this quickly, but are you happy and are you hopeful?

RAY MINNIECON

It might sound strange, but my happiness, or my inner content, comes from two High Court decisions. One is the Mabo decision, where, for the first time, we lifted the lid off Crown title and saw underneath there that Aboriginal people have the best definition of sovereignty. That we can have possession, we can have our occupation, our use and enjoyment of our lands. That’s the best definition I’ve ever heard of sovereignty.

HAMISH MACDONALD

And the second High Court decision?

RAY MINNIECON

The second High Court decision happened earlier this year. That one they gave us a look at our connection to land. The one in February of this year gave us a really good definition of who we are. And that was from the Love/Thoms v Commonwealth, which decided that even parliaments can’t separate my identity from my connection to country. So when I say I’m Gurang Gurang, that particular High Court decision made sure that I have that kind of connection to who I am.

So those two things, they gave me a lot of hope. And that, in the future, when our people start to look at these High Court decisions, they might be able to move the agenda a little bit further, particularly around the issues around the Statement from the Heart, where we can possibly get a treaty, where we can possibly get a voice in parliament, and where we can possibly have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Ronni?

RONNI KAHN AO

Out of this opportunity, out of this crisis, has come the opportunity. People have been more compassionate, people have been kinder. They’ve been more aware of the food, the value of food, people have been cooking at home, making bread, breaking bread, understanding, seeing the sky, being able to realise that if we can follow the science around COVID, we can follow the science around climate change. I am hopeful, because people will not forget what we’ve been through.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Kerry, something about tonight makes me think you might miss being on television a tiny bit.

KERRY O’BRIEN

No, I don’t, actually. I don’t.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Are you happy?

KERRY O’BRIEN

I’m happy not being on television. (LAUGHS)

HAMISH MACDONALD

(LAUGHS) Yeah?

KERRY O’BRIEN

Mostly. Look, I think the one thing that has not changed through the course of human history is human nature – good and evil and everything in between. And that there have been so many challenges to our civilisation through the course of that history, and they have been…those challenges have invariably... I mean, obviously, there’ve been some massive failures, but here we still are. And here we still see good perpetrated. So am I hopeful? Yes, I am.

Am I worried, though? Yes. I’m also extremely worried. And I worry mostly about the incapacity of leadership in the world today to actually be seen to come to grips with the massive problems we face. But every time I’m surrounded by family and good friends, and we sit around and we talk and we enjoy each other’s company and the love that is within the family, those are the things that make me most happy, and those are the things that I think are precious for all of us.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think you’ve all made us happy tonight. Thank you so much to our panel. It’s been a genuine honour. Kerry O’Brien, thank you. Jillian Broadbent, Colin Barnett, Ray Minniecon and Ronni Kahn. Would you please give them all a round of applause.

Thanks to those of you here in the studio, and to those of you at home, for your questions. Next week we ask, who holds the power? We look at what’s testing the relationship between our state and federal governments, and what it means for you. Have a very good night.