Live from Penrith

HAMISH MACDONALD

It’s great to be back on the road again. We’re live tonight from Western Sydney. Welcome to Q+A.

Hey there. It’s great to be with you from the Joan Sutherland Performing Arts Centre in Penrith. We’ll get to some breaking news tonight, with questions over whether Gladys Berejiklian broke her own COVID guidelines. Answering your questions: artist and lawyer Amani Haydar is here; New South Wales Minister for Jobs, Investment and Western Sydney, Stuart Ayres; Fairfield City Councillor Dai Le; Deputy Leader of the Federal Opposition, Richard Marles; and director of Western Sydney Women, Amanda Rose. Please make all of them feel welcome.

Now, I need to start with a question to you, Stuart Ayres. There’s breaking news tonight – it’s been widely reported that Gladys Berejiklian took a COVID test last Tuesday, budget day in New South Wales, didn’t go home and isolate. Why?

STUART AYRES, NSW MINISTER FOR JOBS, INVESTMENT, TOURISM AND WESTERN SYDNEY

I don’t think she had any COVID symptoms. She’d lost her voice. She was pretty up-front about that. But didn’t exhibit any other symptoms, and took a precautionary COVID test. Results came back in a couple of hours.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But the instructions from your own Department of Health are clear, saying that you must self-isolate if you’ve been tested and are awaiting results. Why does that not apply to the Premier?

STUART AYRES

Oh, I think she’s evaluated what’s important for her. I think that she’s not exhibited any symptoms and she’s done the right thing here.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So we can all do that? Just evaluate for ourselves and make a decision according...

STUART AYRES

I think if people aren’t exhibiting symptoms, yeah.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So you can take a COVID test and not go home and isolate?

STUART AYRES

No, if you’re not exhibiting symptoms and you’re taking a precautionary test, I think what the Premier’s done here is right.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But that’s contrary to your own guidelines.

STUART AYRES

I think you’ll find the guidelines say “if you’re exhibiting symptoms”.

HAMISH MACDONALD

No, actually, New South Wales Department of Health guidelines – I’ve been there tonight, I’ve got it printed out here – says, “You must self-isolate if you have been tested for COVID-19 and are awaiting results.” It could not be clearer.

STUART AYRES

Yeah, I think the key point here is that she’s gone and taken a precautionary test, but she’s not exhibiting any symptoms. She fronts the media every single day. She’s lost her voice. Probably anticipated that she might get a question. She’s gone and done that. I don’t think she’s put anyone at risk here.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Amanda Rose.

AMANDA ROSE, FOUNDING DIRECTOR, WESTERN SYDNEY WOMEN

Oh! (LAUGHS) Well, to be honest, it’s during budget time, right, and it is our Premier. And I think we’re making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill in this particular instance because, to be honest, I want her to get on with her job and get on with the budget and...you know, ‘cause, doing what I do, and especially with women – we need as much support, we need the budget to be on point, we need our Premier to be working 24/7. Although I know what you...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But do we need her to obey the COVID guidelines, though?

AMANDA ROSE

Yes, but just like Stuart said... And look, I’m not one to actually agree with politicians much, and I don’t particularly like people that disregard guidelines – I’m quite aggressive with that – but then, I’m also not self-righteous in the sense of saying, “In this particular instance, you have to follow the rules down the line and so forth.” There are some times where you have to say, “Well, the circumstance were...” And I think, based on what we’ve heard – the fact that she didn’t show any symptoms and so forth – then, yes, I don’t think it’s a massive issue. Although, yes, to the everyday person, they’re thinking, “Hang on a minute. I have to go and isolate. Why can’t you?” So I understand that. But then we also need to say, well, this is the Premier and we need to make sure she gets on with the job.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, Richard Marles, a different set of rules apply to our leaders?

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY OPPOSITION LEADER

Well, they shouldn’t. I mean, I don’t want to have a go at Gladys Berejiklian, and I don’t know her side of the story. I’m not exactly sure what we mean by a “precautionary test”, but, obviously, these protocols matter. And it’s really important that the same rule that applies to everyone out there applies to our leaders. And I don’t think anyone can live through what we have in Victoria and be under any illusion as to what’s at stake here. I mean, this disease can get out so easily. And so it’s really important that there is a consistent set of protocols which just applies to everyone within the community. There was something which led her to have that test, and the protocols are what they are.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I mean, just to clarify – ‘cause there’ll be people at home tonight that are confused about what you should do if you’ve had a test – are you saying that, if you haven’t shown any symptoms but you have had a test, you can stay at work?

STUART AYRES

No, I’m saying that if you haven’t exhibited any symptoms and you go and get a test, you don’t have to isolate if you’ve not exhibited symptoms.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So that...that seems to be a change to the guidelines.

STUART AYRES

No, I think... Really what we’re talking about here is the actions the Premier took. She’s gone and taken a precautionary test, she’s had the results back in a couple of hours. She’s not exhibited any symptoms. I don’t think she’s done anything wrong here.

RICHARD MARLES

So, Hamish, I think we’ve got to understand what was the circumstance of the test. I quarantined out of Victoria back in September, and part of the protocol of going into the ACT was that we took a test on day 12 of our quarantine. I didn’t have symptoms, but it was part of the measure by which I was able to quarantine. That’s one thing. But if you’ve gone and had a test because you...something’s happening – you feel...you’ve lost your voice, there is some symptom – then, I’m not sure there’s any category of “precautionary test”. I mean, you’ve gone to get a test because of some way you’re feeling. I mean, in that circumstance, I think the protocols are completely clear.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Dai Le?

DAI LE, FAIRFIELD CITY COUNCILLOR

Yeah. I’ve just been listening and just weighing up, because I know...knowing Gladys, having worked with her, she’s a very meticulous and very careful person. So, you know, basically... If... You know, she probably was talking so much, meeting...having so many meetings, she probably lost her voice, and perhaps making a personal judgement saying that, “I’m actually not sick,” and taking that – well, “precautionary” – to do that test, because... Just to, actually, maybe alleviate the concerns of her colleagues, but don’t feel or don’t have any symptoms of being sick, perhaps... But it’s... Yeah, it’s... I’m not in her shoes, I don’t know the circumstances...

AMANDA ROSE

I think the exciting thing here is that the...it’s going to be updated now, right, the guidelines, that if you don’t show any symptoms, you don’t have to self-isolate. ‘Cause that’s what I’m getting from Stuart.

STUART AYRES

Yeah, I think if you don’t exhibit symptoms, you don’t have to get a test.

AMANDA ROSE

There you go.

RICHARD MARLES

Yeah, but we’re not updating guidelines on Q+A.

STUART AYRES

No, no.

RICHARD MARLES

I mean, guidelines are done by our medical...

AMANDA ROSE

Via text? (CHUCKLES)

RICHARD MARLES

Well, no, our medical advisers, and they come up with the protocols. It’s not that you... We don’t have the power to change them right here.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But the Minister, who’s one of Gladys Berejiklian’s closest allies, seemed to be saying that there are some different rules here.

STUART AYRES

No, I’m saying, if you don’t exhibit symptoms, you don’t need to get tested. I think Gladys is allowed to go and have a test. I don’t think she’s put anyone at risk here. I completely agree with Dai – she’s meticulous in the way that she approaches her work. The concept that Gladys would make a decision that put anyone that she’s near – a colleague, a friend – at risk, I just completely reject that principle.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Well, it is wonderful to be here in Greater Western Sydney tonight. This region is, in fact, Australia’s third-biggest economy, just behind Sydney and Melbourne.

Sydney’s heart is moving its beat from east to west. We’re travelling to Penrith, 50km from the coast.

Welcome to Greater Western Sydney – or GWS, as it’s become known. It’s one of the largest-growing urban populations in Australia. The numbers are already well clear of two million and, by the year 2036, some three million people will be calling GWS home. GWS is nearly 9,000 square kilometres, running from Canterbury-Bankstown up to the Hunter Valley, out to the Blue Mountains and down to the Wollongong border.

As the population swells, cities like Penrith and Parramatta are becoming metropolitan hubs. Government departments, industry and the arts are moving their headquarters west, and there’s a new airport on the way.

Now, these might look like your standard urban Australian streets, but the numbers around here tell a remarkable story of dynamism and diversity. Some 35% of the people living here were born overseas. They’ve come to Australia from something like 170 different countries. And today, more than 100 languages are spoken around here. In Penrith itself, First Nations people make up 5% of the population.

What’s good about living in the western suburbs of Sydney?

WOMAN 1

The community and the love. Definitely more accepting.

WOMAN 2

Diversity. And house prices.

WOMAN 3

Still like a bit of a country area that people get on well.

MAN

The west is the best place to be.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But this vast region remains littered with pockets of joblessness and disadvantage. It’ll be evolving areas like this that the nation is going to rely on as it struggles to regain its economic footing. So, the question tonight – have authorities prepared these exposed communities to survive and thrive as they too face the impact of this global pandemic?

Well, our next question tonight comes from Aaron Ponton, who’s in our studio audience. Aaron.

AARON PONTON

Thank you. I was born and grew up in Western Sydney, and it’s changed a great deal, especially in regards to immigrants. I feel we have an inundation of immigrants, and there are too many from too many different countries. Why can’t we just lower the immigration levels? This is our country. We have a right to lower immigration levels. Other countries, such as the USA, have a much lower rate. And shouldn’t we stop labelling people opposed to immigration as “racist”?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Amani?

AMANI HAYDAR, ARTIST AND LAWYER

I think one of the things that came through with the package just then, and one of the things that I really appreciate about Western Sydney, is the diversity that we have, which is as a result of our humanitarian impact, in part...intake, in part. So, for example, the Fairfield area has one of Australia’s largest humanitarian refugee intakes. And that adds to the richness of the area. And, even though there are particular barriers and significant issues that we can address in order to support newly settled refugees, I think we need to actually embrace the sense of community that’s happening as this area evolves, and really lean into that, and find a way to empower those communities and build on what’s already happening. I’m proud to be from Western Sydney. I’m proud to be from a very diverse community. I can see really exciting things happening in my area in the arts, in terms of the types of community services that are springing up everywhere to make sure that people are well supported.

HAMISH MACDONALD

There’s a really strong and clear Western Sydney identity, isn’t there?

AMANI HAYDAR

I think there is, but it’s not just one thing. I mean, we’ve heard as well, like, we’re on Aboriginal land. It’s Dharug country here, where we are now. So that should first and foremost be recognised. And then we can talk about the different people who have settled here over time, and the way that that’s changed the face of the community. I think it’s really something that has been positive in the sense that it’s created a very unique society that there is not much like it out there in the world in terms of the diversity that we have here.

I think...I’m part of Sweatshop Western Sydney – we’re producing a lot of literature by young people from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds, and empowering them through literacy and providing opportunities for publication, and artistic projects to be...for them to participate in artistic projects. I think... Dai Le and I were at an art exhibition recently at the Fairfield Community Museum & Gallery where a collection of artefacts...items that people had brought with them from overseas was on display. And that, in itself, was a way of highlighting the different stories that exist in Western Sydney and the ways that they’ve actually had a really important...they play a really important and positive role in the shaping of our identity.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Dai, how do you respond to the question?

DAI LE

Can I say, actually, immigration actually has stopped in the last seven months because of COVID. But I can actually... I acknowledge your...probably your fear in terms of the differences of community groups that have settled in Australia over the last few decades. I came here as a refugee from Vietnam, couldn’t speak English, here I am today, sitting in this room. So I think... I understand, for people like yourself, having such a diverse group of people settling in the community, I think with government not explaining, in terms of bringing communities together, is where the tension is. I think the lack of leadership in actually providing stories and sharing stories of what we can actually bring and what we can contribute to this community, so that we can actually...you can understand our story and our journey. So I think we need more of that kind of stories to be shared for people like yourself so they can actually understand those differences.

We’re not here... For me, I came here because I wanted to make Australia my own home. You know, it’s my second homeland after Vietnam. So I’m an Australian as much as you. Sure, I wasn’t born here, but I think what your question leads to is the lack of leadership in our political arena to actually provide a bridge between me and you, so that you can understand me and I can understand you.

So I think that what Amani said, what we’re trying to do in our community...like for me, I live and breathe South Western Sydney, I think there’s so much richness of diversity of stories and cultures there that we can actually impart to the wider Australian community. And I hope that we can do that. And I hope that, down the track, in the next time when we come on Q+A, you’ll be sitting there and you’ll celebrating the diversity that we have brought to this country.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just want to broaden this out. Do you see parallels with your community, Richard? You’re from Victoria, represent an electorate outside of Melbourne – a lot of growth, but a lot of changing demographics.

RICHARD MARLES

Well, certainly, when I was watching your package, there’s a lot in that which reminds me of Geelong, where I’m from. It’s a similar distance from the centre of Melbourne as what we are here from the centre of Sydney. Certainly, Western Sydney is much more diverse in terms of the people who are here than what we would see in Geelong, and...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think it’s a failure of leadership, though, as described by Dai – are politicians bridging the divisions?

RICHARD MARLES

I do, actually. I think that’s a really important contribution that Dai has made. And look, I hear the question of Aaron – certainly, it should be completely legitimate to talk about the question of immigration. But one of the points I’d make is that, with COVID-19 and the fact that we’ve seen a stop with...well, a stalling, I guess, is the way to put it, with immigration, I think that’s going to have a huge impact on our economy. And it’s really put into sharp relief how important immigration is to our economy. And when you...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, would Labor, in government, return us to the pre-COVID immigration levels?

RICHARD MARLES

Well, I think immigration has been a fundamental part of the Australian story, really, since European settlement.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But no-one’s arguing that. It’s a question about whether you’d return to the pre-COVID levels.

RICHARD MARLES

Well, I think we do need to see immigration get back to something around that level, because it’s what drives economic growth. But it’s been central to Australia’s story since European settlement, and immigration has been very central...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you agree, Stuart, with that?

STUART AYRES

Yeah.

RICHARD MARLES

...to our economic growth, and to who we are as a people.

STUART AYRES

Yeah, migration’s going to be absolutely crucial in the way our nation recovers from COVID. And the group of Australians that need to be most focused on this are actually older Australians, because what migrants do is they make a community younger. They actually bring more workers in. And so, at a time when our population is ageing, we’re actually going to need more younger people to be able to create the jobs, create the economic prosperity, to actually sustain a lot of older Australians into retirement. And we’re going to be put under that pressure more so now, given we’ve had this year with no migration. It’s going to be really critical that we get those numbers back up.

AMANDA ROSE

So, it was...Aaron, correct? May I ask why you feel that way?

AARON PONTON

Well, Bob Carr very famously said he wanted to halve immigration for the sake of the economy. And, of course, he’s not racist – he’s married to an Asian woman. So, for him, it’s about the economy, it’s about infrastructure. I mean, there’s a lot of massive apartments being built, and I feel like the quality of life is going down and, you know, the idea of having a house and a backyard is sort of lost.

AMANDA ROSE

Yep.

AARON PONTON

We’re becoming a city of apartments...

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK.

AARON PONTON

...and the prices are just too much.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let me let Amanda respond.

AMANDA ROSE

Yeah. So, no, I respect that. And I think understanding where people come from is crucial in communicating the story that you all just talked about. So, I understand your fear that you think there won’t be enough houses, there won’t be enough jobs, and the economy. But I think what Dai was saying – very much so – that we need to communicate the opportunities and what there is available. I actually think there’s been a disconnect. You know, I’m dealing with massive different cultures all the time, and bringing them together under one umbrella – for example, for me, with women – and they’re communicating and sharing stories, makes a big difference. So I do invite you to actually maybe sit with your local MP, come and visit myself, Dai, have a discussion, so we can show you that it’s actually good for the country and it’s not as bad as you think.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want to bring Duy Nguyen in on this conversation, ‘cause you’ve got a question along those lines.

HUU DUY NGUYEN

Uh, which question?

HAMISH MACDONALD

The question you’ve submitted. Do you want to put that to the panel?

HUU DUY NGUYEN

The question I submitted, or the question I was about to barge into the man’s question with?

ALL PANELLISTS

(LAUGH)

HAMISH MACDONALD

What do you want to ask?

DAI LE

Throw it!

HUU DUY NGUYEN

Ah, alright. So, I understand that the Shadow Minister for Defence would be... Sorry, I forgot... I can’t recall you name.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Richard Marles is his name.

RICHARD MARLES

Yeah.

HUU DUY NGUYEN

Yeah. So, OK, with regards to the immigration issue, has anyone considered that perhaps refugees are only coming here as a result of constant Australian following the coat-tails of American intervention overseas in Afghanistan?

HAMISH MACDONALD

I think...I haven’t said this once this year, but let’s take that as a comment and move on. Our next question tonight...

In fact, remember, you can stream us on iview and join the conversation on all socials – #QandA is the hashtag. Please keep it respectful, if you can.

Our next question comes from Erin Foster.

ERIN FOSTER

Yeah, so, I just wanted to ask... Over my working life, I’ve actually had job offers rescinded when my employers found out that I’ll be commuting from Western Sydney. Given Sydney’s status as a commuter city, I just wanted to ask how the government plans to address the troubling transport...public transport woes to the area.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I’m going to put that to Amanda Rose first.

AMANDA ROSE

I’m so sorry that’s happened to you. I can’t say what I really want to say on live TV. I...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Tell me – what is it that you really want to say?

AMANDA ROSE

That’s bullshit, right?

ERIN FOSTER

(LAUGHS)

AMANDA ROSE

And that happens a lot. So, the stigma... That’s actually a stigma-related... Not just even, “Oh, I’m sorry, you have to travel so far.” That’s rubbish, because if someone wants a job, they will travel. I’ve travelled an hour and a half for a job, ‘cause it is what it is and, until things change, you have to do that. But to have a job rescinded because of where you’re from, and because you’re from Western Sydney, that is discrimination, and that is the stigma that comes with Western Sydney. So I am pro moving government departments and large companies to Penrith CBD, you know, even to the Hawkesbury, to Parramatta, to all of that, so we don’t...

DAI LE

Fairfield. (LAUGHS)

AMANDA ROSE

Fairfield. So we don’t have to travel as far. And I think we need to do more of that. I think there needs to be more lobbying for that to happen.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What is the perception that exists, on the other side of the city, of people in Western Sydney?

AMANDA ROSE

“Oh, if you’re from Western Sydney, honey, you’re not smart.” You know. “You’re not ambitious.” You know. “You don’t really want to make the it in life.” I mean, I’m sick to death of hearing, “Oh, he’s a Blacktown boy,” you know, “gone good,” or, “Haven’t you done well for yourself, sweetheart?” Right? I even did a TEDx talk on the stigma of Western Sydney, it was that bad. And it happens, and we don’t talk about it because we’re...the shame of it, you know? People don’t even put where they’re from on their CVs because they get that, “Oh. Are you sure?” Or, “Where is that?” And then it’s kind of, “Oh, we’ll put you at the bottom of the pile.” And it’s classism, right. People assume that people from Western Sydney are a different type of breed. And you know what? Come to Western Sydney. Have a look. We are smart. We’re ambitious. We just never had access to the opportunities that the rest of the city have, and now we do. Now, thanks to myself and these lovely women here on the panel, we’re doing everything we can to make sure that women, in particular, are having access to better education, safety – all of that.

DAI LE

I think, with the COVID world that we’re living in, I think...I find it surprising that they would do that, because we can now work from home. I think that’s the great thing about what COVID-19 has presented – for women to work from home, and you can actually...don’t have to go into the office anymore. So I think that’s surprising, and I think that kind of organisation should really reflect on its work flexibility...flexible work policies, because, you know, we’re in 2020.

AMANDA ROSE

It’s an attitude thing. It’s not about their flexibility.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But this was ultimately, Stuart Ayres, a question about transport. What are you doing to make it easier for people...

AMANDA ROSE

Yeah, Stuart. (CHUCKLES)

HAMISH MACDONALD

...to get those jobs and to remove the excuses that might exist in the minds of some?

STUART AYRES

Yeah, well, I think the most important thing is bringing jobs closer to where people live. That’s why we’ve got investments in roads and rail across Western Sydney. It’s one of the reasons why we’re developing the Aerotropolis areas around the airport. It’s why we’ve got more investment into train transport between places like Penrith, Blacktown, Parramatta. This is...

DAI LE

Fairfield. (LAUGHS)

STUART AYRES

Fairfield.

DAI LE

Heart, Fairfield. We are the heart.

HAMISH MACDONALD

You don’t win a prize for saying ‘Fairfield’ multiple times.

STUART AYRES

If there WAS a prize for saying ‘Fairfield’, Dai would definitely win it. But... And even including additional road infrastructure, new tunnels, that allow people to be able to move around the city more effectively. I think, really, what’s happening now is Western Sydney is taking ownership of its own outcomes. It’s not waiting for someone on the east of the city to give them an answer or give them a job. They’re actually going out and doing that themselves. And I think the infrastructure that’s being delivered and has been delivered, particularly over the last 10 to 15 years – has really changed those opportunities that exist right around Western Sydney.

HAMISH MACDONALD

But there seems to be big gaps. There was a lot of outcry in the budget last week. You seemed to neglect any extension of the Parramatta Light Rail. That was widely foreshadowed. I mean, is this more about sort of marketing and selling a message than actually delivering for people like this?

STUART AYRES

No. The largest road project in Australia’s history links Western Sydney with eastern Sydney. The largest rail transport project in Australia’s history will link east and west together.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, what, you just forgot about the light rail extension? What happened?

STUART AYRES

No, I think we’re putting infrastructure where it’s needed most. We’ve done that...

HAMISH MACDONALD

So it’s not needed? Is that what you’re saying?

STUART AYRES

I think that that section of Parramatta linking to Olympic Park is going to be incredibly well-serviced by the biggest metro rail the nation’s ever built. Let’s see how that works and then decide whether we need to keep that into it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Amani, do you think they’re delivering on your transport needs?

AMANI HAYDAR

Transport to Western Sydney has been pretty bad for as long as I’ve worked and lived there. I’ve lived in other places around Sydney and haven’t had the same problem. You’re adding about, you know, one to two, sometimes a little bit more, hours of travel to your day each day. You lose time with your family, you get home when it’s dark, you miss out on opportunities like even basic things – going to the gym, sharing dinner with your kids if they have to go to bed early. And I think that sometimes people lose focus on how people’s everyday lives are affected by bad infrastructure, bad planning, things like that.

So I think...I think you definitely have a point. I’m so sorry that’s happened to you, and I think there definitely needs to be more done in terms of supporting the population that lives in Western Sydney, and also making sure that that planning is well thought out, considered, and allows people to also engage in their local community in a way that’s meaningful.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, one question – our next question, in fact – goes to something we’ve all been talking a lot about this week, allegations of Australians committing war crimes. It comes from Peter Willis.

PETER WILLIS

G’day, Hamish and the panel. I’ve been a soldier for 35 years, so I have a reasonable understanding of Australian military history. Considering the well-reported and, in some cases, well-documented incidences of the killing of POWs and innocent civilians from the Boer War, World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam – and murder was just as immoral in 1943 as it is now – why, as a society, are we so shocked now with these current allegations against our Special Forces?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Richard Marles?

RICHARD MARLES

(SIGHS) Well, I’m glad we’re shocked, to be honest. And when I speak to the leadership of our Defence Force, they’re shocked. I mean, the allegations that we saw reported last week in the Brereton Report are truly appalling. I mean, there’s no other way of describing it. And I think the idea that it happened with people wearing our uniform is a matter which should shock us all.

But if there is a positive in this, it’s that we, as a country, you know, and indeed, the Defence Force itself, have brought this to the public light. I mean, nothing has been hidden here. It hasn’t been swept under the carpet. And there’s a lot of serious process to go forward. But, you know, this is not what the Defence Force should be about. It is to the Defence Force’s credit that it has been brought forward.

It is really important that our focus right now is on the victims of this. And one of the recommendations in the report is that there be a process for developing recompense for them, and that’s...it’s very important that that is fulfilled. But I don’t think we should, at any level, lessen the significance of what we saw last week, and certainly, the Defence Force itself is not.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Amani?

AMANI HAYDAR

First of all, I want to really express my condolences to the victims of those crimes and my...the members of the Afghan community that I know and work with, and my colleagues who...some of whom are here today.

Secondly, I want to say that a lot of people that grew up in my community are not shocked. We’ve grown up with the reality of war. We’ve had family members affected by it. I know the Afghan women that I’ve spoken to in the last few days are not shocked either. My friend Diana Sayed, who is a colleague from the Australian Afghan Lawyers Association, said that we need to move past this expression of shock and concern and really look towards what victims need, how we can repair the situation, and rather than trying to feel better about it in the sense that, “Oh, maybe there’s a positive,” there isn’t. Atrocities like this take place regularly and often. In war, about 70% of modern warfare fatalities are civilians. The majority of those would be women and children. We shouldn’t be shocked. We should actually be thinking about how we transform our culture, both within our own nation and internationally, so things like this don’t happen.

Another thing that my friends from the Afghan community pointed to was the fact that, after so many years of Muslims and Afghans and refugees being demonised in the media, of course, when someone is holding a weapon and they see someone who they no longer think of as a human being, that person is then at that extra risk of violence.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think that played a part in this?

AMANI HAYDAR

I don’t know. I’m not in the minds of the people involved. But it definitely plays a role in these sorts of atrocities. I was lucky enough, as a lawyer, to be trained in the investigation of war crimes. There’s a huge process that goes into this sort of thing. It’s very difficult for the victims of these crimes to come forward because of fear of persecution and the trauma that the process can entail.

And we only start... This is, like, scratching the surface. You don’t know how many people from these sorts of war zones don’t ever get found – they go missing after surrendering. There are people who never live to tell their story. There are people who are too afraid to talk about it because they’ve been tortured by soldiers or members of the government and things like that. And then it takes a long time to get any kind of accountability because, often, the people who are responsible hold a lot of power. I have...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I want to bring Stuart Ayres in.

AMANI HAYDAR

Yep.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I know you come from a military family. Did all of this shock you?

STUART AYRES

I think what this really demonstrates is there’s a set of values that I think Australians hold incredibly dear. And the presentation of those values is represented through the Australian Defence Force. And what this is is a betrayal of those values. And we...we need to acknowledge that that betrayal has taken place, and there needs to be a process that allows us to recognise the people who have done the wrong thing and hold them to account. And a group of people that I...

HAMISH MACDONALD

What are those values that have been breached, then?

STUART AYRES

Well, the rule of law. The recognition of humanity. The reason why members of the Australian Defence Force go and defend Australia’s national values, why they go into nations that are under attack by people who don’t have the same values as us. They put that uniform on, put themselves in harm’s way, but they also make an obligation that they’ll do that in a particular way that represents what Australians believe in. And what has happened in Afghanistan and what we’re all going to go through in the most uncomfortable of ways is...is a breach of those values.

HAMISH MACDONALD

What do you think Australia achieved by going to war in Afghanistan?

STUART AYRES

I think the intention – the clear intention – was to remove the Taliban from being able to create a government that was going to put other nations and other people at risk around the world. And we’ve...we’ve deployed those servicemen and women and put them in harm’s way so they can protect Australians, so they can protect people from other countries who want an opportunity to live in a free and democratic society. But with that comes obligations.

RICHARD MARLES

I... Yeah, I think what Stuart said... I think it was really well said, actually, the way Stuart has put it. We were right to be in Afghanistan. And I actually think it would be a tragedy if the way in which we see our engagement in Afghanistan is solely through the prism of these allegations. And in that sense, I feel very much for the thousands of Australians who gave distinguished service in Afghanistan. I think the allegations...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But, with respect, the... With respect, the objective was to remove the Taliban from power, to prevent Afghanistan from being used as a base for international terrorist organisations, and to install democracy. Now, you could maybe argue that there’s some form of democracy, but the Taliban is now negotiating to return to some form of power, and ISIS and al-Qaeda are both active there. So, what did we achieve?

RICHARD MARLES

Well, we...we did seek to remove... to stop Afghanistan being used as a base for international terrorism. There’s no sense in which it’s being used now in the way that it was pre-September 11, and we...we should remember, Australians died on September 11. There were...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But you acknowledge that ISIS is there and active?

RICHARD MARLES

Sure, but it’s not the same as what was going on before September 11. And no-one would make the argument now that Afghanistan is in the same position in terms of being a base for international terrorism as it was then. I mean, the organisation which perpetrated the Bali bombing used Afghanistan as a training camp.

But then, beyond that, Hamish, you know, Australia... It goes to one of the values that you said. I think Australia, we would all want to be one of that group of countries, or in that group of countries, which is willing to help when another country puts its hand up and asks for assistance. And that’s exactly what Afghanistan has done. And so Australian involvement there has been seeking to empower Afghanistan to a point where it has more effective government...governance. There is a...

HAMISH MACDONALD

With respect, I don’t think Afghanistan invited the conflict. I mean, America invited us...

RICHARD MARLES

No, no. Look, it’s...

HAMISH MACDONALD

...to cooperate with them.

RICHARD MARLES

No, no. At the outset. But where we’re at now is that we are there very much at the invitation of the Afghan government, seeking to empower this government to create a greater sense of governance within the country. And there’s clearly a long way to go – no-one’s saying there isn’t. But what Australians are doing there is providing help and assistance, and that goes to the sort of values that we’re about, I think, as a nation, and what the ADF’s about, which is why...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you think the Afghan people see it that way now?

RICHARD MARLES

Well, as I say, we are there trying to support Afghanistan, and very much there at their invitation, but...but it is why these allegations are so appalling. Because, as Stuart said, it flies in the face of all the values which underpin the really important engagement we’ve had there, and the...and the distinguished service that so many thousands of Australians have gone through. And I feel for them in this moment as well.

STUART AYRES

Hamish, I think...I think there’s a really important point here. We’ve.... As a nation, we’ve got to go through this very uncomfortable exercise so that we can recognise all of the members of the Australian Defence Force who do the right thing. You’ve...you’ve got to go through this process to be able to identify those people who did the wrong thing and hold them accountable so that all of the members of the Australian Defence Force who have been doing the right thing, year after year, month after month, week after week, aren’t tarnished with this brush.

AMANDA ROSE

Yes, but then it’s also a cultural thing. So, if...if this type of activity is happening, like in an organisation, and they feel comfortable to do this type of activity, that means that group, that... I don’t know what they call them in the Defence Force.

DAI LE

The elite. The elite.

AMANDA ROSE

You know, why was there a culture created where they felt this was OK? That they thought this type of behaviour was OK? So, I think we can say sorry, we can do all these things and say we’re shocked, but what are we doing moving forward to make sure that that group that misbehaved – where did they come from, who was their leader, and why was there a culture created where they thought this behaviour was OK?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Lala Pordeli, I think you have a question, but I’m just interested to hear your reaction to this conversation.

LALA PORDELI

Yes. So, as an Australian-Afghan who was born in Afghanistan, I came here when I was five as a refugee. We flew away from Afghanistan, essentially escaped, due to the war, civil war that was occurring. To hear things such as...in essence, a glorification of our soldiers, Australian soldiers, going to Afghanistan, the reality is, if you hear or are in touch with family members or listen to daily news in Afghanistan, to which we have access to those channels, the situation has definitely not improved. The situation in Afghanistan is so much more worse at the moment. Every second day, there are terrorist bombings. I think it doesn’t affect the Australian population. It’s not on global TV, so that’s why you don’t hear about it.

But to say that, to be honest, in any way, Australian soldiers have assisted Afghanistan or the situation there, I think we’re actually lying to ourselves. I think the reality is that there’s been no assistance. The situation in Afghanistan is far worse for the people living there. And the reality is, America and the Taliban are in negotiations at the moment. So, to go there to remove the Taliban, to then, so many years later, be back in negotiations – what has any of it really achieved?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Richard Marles?

RICHARD MARLES

No-one... And I’m certainly not suggesting that Afghanistan is in a wonderful position. That’s not the point I’m making. But we do need to consider what the situation in Afghanistan was before this international mission started. I mean, girls weren’t able to go to school. I mean, people who were Hindus had to wear a particular badge on them to identify their religion. I mean, the situation that was going on in Afghanistan before then was absolutely appalling, and... and in that sense, things are no longer like that. Now, I’m not here saying...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I... I need to let Lala respond.

LALA PORDELI

I’d like to just say, we have to look back towards the history of what gave rise to the Taliban. Who were the people that actually funded the Taliban and assisted them to fight the Russians during the invasion? And that came through the West. So, in essence, you gave rise to the Taliban, to then allow them…or to then say you want to fight a war against them.

The reality is, for people that come from countries like that, we have a different concept and understanding of what happens there. There’s a level of, I think, deeper understanding, just through the way that we’ve been raised, and obviously the experiences we’ve had. So, yes, I completely agree with you – the Taliban, no-one supports them. No-one wants, in Afghanistan, to be under their rule. But really, to us, is it any better? Because we’ve kind of been given the Taliban, and then we’ve been given other people who are now forcing other atrocities... It really... I don’t know. Can you really make a big distinction?

RICHARD MARLES

Well... Well, the only point I’d then make is that, if the country at this moment in time is seeking assistance from the global community because of all the issues that you’ve raised, are we going to be one of that group...in that group of countries which says we’ll help? Now, I think Australia should. And I think we proudly should be one of those countries which is willing to provide assistance when a country that has gone through everything that you just described seeks it. And that’s the situation that we’ve got at the moment. Yeah, it’s really complex. And yet... But...but should we be there? I think we should, and it needs to be appropriately calibrated...

AMANDA ROSE

I know you need this young lady on your policy advising team, I’ll tell you that much. (CHUCKLES)

HAMISH MACDONALD

Let’s take our next question. It comes from Kate Rafton.

KATE RAFTON

Thanks. My question’s specifically to the women advocates on the panel. I’m a lawyer here in Western Sydney, and I mainly practise in the area of family law. We have seen an increase in cases coming before the court during the pandemic, and in particular, those involving domestic violence. How do you see the community and the government supporting these groups of people, and what resources are required?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Amani?

AMANI HAYDAR

Thank you for that question. I’ve been involved in the domestic violence advocacy space in Western Sydney primarily, but also on a state level, since about 2017. I lost my mum, Salwa Haydar, to domestic violence in 2015. My dad was subsequently found guilty of her murder and is serving time in prison now. Through that experience, I sort of witnessed a lot of different facets of the systems that we have to work with, a lot of the ways that victims are marginalised by the system, and a lot of the systemic failures that actually leave women in harm’s way.

I now sit on the board of Bankstown Women’s Health Centre, working primarily with women in the Canterbury-Bankstown area, so that they can access health supports, counselling, and things like that. We hear the exact same thing, and COVID has exacerbated the situation. So, we’ve had an increase of about 20% to 30% in women reporting domestic violence to the service.

We’ve had very little increase in support or funding over the years. In fact, the core funding for the women’s health services has stayed the same for 45 years. Programs are often funded on a one-to-three-year basis, and so you start doing something fantastic with your community and you’re not even able to measure, really, the impact of it in such a short-term funding sort of turnover. I think all of these issues, a lot of the advocates and front-line workers in the domestic violence space have expressed, time and time again, frustration about these things.

And the fact that, whilst there have been pockets of change here and there, on a systemic level, a lot of things have stayed the same. And I know that the first speech I gave as an advocate in 2017, I could probably copy word for word and read out and still be true right now in terms of the policy issues that were identified then.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Can I just ask you… Your family tragedy shapes everything that you do, I think, today. How has it shaped the way you think about this moment in time, when so many people have been in lockdown, so many people have been stuck in circumstances that perhaps they might normally not have been?

AMANI HAYDAR

It definitely shapes everything I do. I think my main feeling is concern towards the number of women that we know are in abusive relationships and the fact that we know that it’s an underreported crime, the fact that services face so many different barriers and limitations in terms of what they can do, the slow changes that take place on a legislative level. I think, for me, the biggest concern is that the greater public sometimes still doesn’t understand the drivers of domestic violence.

They want to individualise the crime, they want to blame the victims, they want to derail the conversation in all sorts of directions so that they don’t actually have to confront the issue of male violence. So, for me, the biggest concern is getting those messages across, making sure that we honour and respect the stories of victims. There will be a vigil at Hyde Park on Wednesday for the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. I’ll be speaking there. You can tune in on your phone online and watch and hear their names. We’ve lost 45 women, I think, the last time I checked the count, to violence this year in Australia.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Amanda?

AMANDA ROSE

Wow. That is a very good question. So, there is so much going on with domestic violence, and I’d say the number one issue is they’ve got nowhere to go. So, you know, it’s hard enough for them to even access the services that are available because they might get caught doing so. You know, in COVID, Western Sydney Women ran online, you know, toxic relationships, financial literacy-type programs, and some women had to quickly turn it off because their partner walked into the room, you know, or there was yelling, and they sent a message later, “I’m sorry, I can’t do it.”

So we can’t even access them. So, when they realise, “This is all too much. I have to run. I have to pack one bag, grab my kids and leave,” they’ve got nowhere to go. If it wasn’t for women’s community shelters and communities getting together and funding and advocating government to get as much money as they can, there would...

Literally, we’re so under-funded when it comes to shelters. We need to have an absolute overhaul and a massive investment with shelters, because there’s a lot of transitional help out there, so to get them into the workforce and to get them financially literate and things – like, that’s all great, but they can’t leave the house. Like, they can’t break free from that relationship. And I don’t think people understand or take them seriously. Plus you’ve got the shame that comes with that.

And I’ve noticed, probably in the last six months, due to COVID, that women have been rising up and different organisations working together. But we need to advocate, if anything, one of the largest-funded things to come out of the next state or federal budget is shelters.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question. It comes from Mick Scarcella.

MICK SCARCELLA

I’m a proud descendant and Saltwater man from the Gubbi Gubbi nation of South-East Queensland. However, I have proudly lived most of my life in Western Sydney. My question is, how much money, which was squandered by governments on the Leppington Triangle land for the new airport, which could have been better injected to a local manufacturing industry in Western Sydney, which has shown, over many generations, what this region was built on?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Dai Le?

DAI LE

Stuart, what are you doing to the land out there?

HAMISH MACDONALD

We’ll bring in the politicians. But do you think this was money well spent on the Leppington Triangle, both spending at state and federal government level?

DAI LE

Look, I think, in terms of government spending, I think a lot of times, federal and state often would spend money where they needed to get the votes. That’s from my perspective. You know...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But in this instance, the federal government bought $3 million worth of land for something like $30 million worth.

DAI LE

They were badly advised. Very bad advisers, I reckon. Either that or the federal government – you know, our ministers – did not fully read the papers, understand the contract, understand...

HAMISH MACDONALD

But did they have a responsibility to understand them though?

DAI LE

Oh, they should! But, you know, sometimes I wonder if people in those senior positions, they’ve got so much on...

AMANDA ROSE

Have a soul? (CHUCKLES)

DAI LE

And, you know, they delegate it to somebody else to look into that and then they sign the paperwork. So a lot of the times, they don’t take responsibility for the details of any kind of contracts or projects, because all they want is that project delivered. You go, get a department, get the staff to work on it and get it, make sure it happens without actually understanding the details of it.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Stuart Ayres, was this money well spent by the federal government? I know you’re state government, but the federal government spending has been well documented, publicised, investigated by the auditor-general.

STUART AYRES

There’s no doubt that figure looks extraordinarily large for that parcel of land, so I think it’s important that there’s a proper investigation into how that’s undertaken.

AMANDA ROSE

Do we get the money back?

STUART AYRES

Well, maybe you do. I don’t know.

AMANDA ROSE

Because I just think, you know, I just talked about shelters, and we could do with $25 million for shelters.

STUART AYRES

No doubt. No doubt. That’s why, when you’re investing taxpayers’ dollars, you’ve got to do so in a prudent way. The one thing I would say, though – and we’ve had questions about transport and infrastructure – you’ve got to acquire property to build infrastructure, to build airports, to build rail lines, to build roads.

And that’s not always an easy process. One of the things that we try to avoid doing is doing a compulsory acquisition, so you’ll enter into an agreement to get an agreement with a landowner so that you can make that deal happen because, ultimately, you want the road or you want the rail line. But there’s an obligation here to make sure that you do your homework. And in this particular instance, it just looks like a really large figure.

HAMISH MACDONALD

The price paid per hectare was 22 times higher than the price paid by the New South Wales government for its parcel of land in Leppington.

STUART AYRES

I’m glad we bought our parcel of land and not the other one! Yeah, look, Hamish, I genuinely don’t know the circumstances, and I think that’s why we do have appropriate investigations. The other thing I would say here is it’s really important to recognise...

A lot of times, people talk about what the valuer-general here in New South Wales valued land at. That’s just the value of land unimproved. So, if you’ve got to buy a person’s home or you’ve got to buy their, you know, sheds and outbuildings, all of those things – they go on top of that value. So the figure often is larger than what most people expect it to be.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, I think you’re talking about the Parramatta land deal that’s provoked quite a bit of discussion. Your government paid three times as much as the valuer-general’s estimate for a parcel of land near Parramatta that was highly contaminated. Are you saying that was a good deal for the taxpayer?

STUART AYRES

Well, Minister Constance has referred that to make sure it’s investigated properly. But you talk about the valuer-general. If you’re buying a home here in Penrith today – in South Penrith or Glenmore Park, one of those locations – the valuer-general’s land of your home is just the value of the land before your house is on it, before any other value is on it.

Now, when you go to a person because their house happens to live in the corridor where a road is, the value that you’re going to have to pay for that land is going to be much, much higher than what the valuer-general is. So I don’t think you can just multiply the valuer-general by three and say that’s what the value is.

HAMISH MACDONALD

There’s some very good real estate agents involved in this at some point, isn’t there?

STUART AYRES

I think, one, you’ve got to let it go through its investigation, but the cost of acquisition of land is going to always be extraordinary. It’s probably one of the highest-cost parts of any form of infrastructure.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Richard Marles, do you accept these arguments?

RICHARD MARLES

Well, look, the Leppington Triangle purchase is a scandal. I mean, there’s not really any other way to describe it. And I don’t think we can put it down to administrative error. And to me, there are two things that come out of it. Well, firstly, the government have not properly explained it, to this date.

But two things from there come out of it. One is that, when you’re doing big infrastructure like this, there’s got to be some transparency. I mean, really, the public do need to have a sense of confidence about what the processes are here and what the proper values are.

But the second is that, you know, at least in New South Wales, there is an ICAC. You know, that doesn’t exist at a federal level, and it’s exactly why we need that at a federal level – so that the public can have a sense of confidence that, when there are arrangements like this, when land is purchased in this way, that there is a watchdog that’s going to have a look at it when it stinks.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Dai, I mean, you were saying ministers have got to be more responsible, look at the documents. I know you were a member of the Liberal Party. You’ve been suspended for 10 years by them.

DAI LE

Yes.

HAMISH MACDONALD

If you were in it, would you do a better job with this sort of thing, do you reckon?

DAI LE

Oh, look, you know, I think... You mean in...

HAMISH MACDONALD

If you were in government. If you were a minister, would you be, you know, running a fine toothcomb over these sorts of decisions?

DAI LE

Oh, look, definitely. I think transparency is very important. I think, nowadays, with technology, you can actually ensure that... In the tech space that I deal with, you talk about blockchain technology whereby you can upload documents in there, and making sure that it is transparent, so people can see that.

I think the ratepayers, the citizens of New South Wales and of Australia, really deserve the respect that our politicians, elected on their ratepaying kind of taxes, that they do the right thing and they do the job properly. And so, therefore, spending that much money, that’s taxpayers’ money...

AMANDA ROSE

That’s right.

DAI LE

...to build the infrastructure there, and I think state, federal, even local – we need to ensure that we really are diligent with those taxpayers’ money.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Our next question is from Denise Hennessy.

DENISE HENNESSY

Oh, hello.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Hi, Denise! What’s your question?

DENISE HENNESSY

Besides being dumped in the hottest and most polluted part of the Sydney Basin, Western Sydney Airport will have no curfew. That is noise 24 hours a day, seven days a week, all year, and with no flight caps. They won’t even tell us the flight paths. Add to this the so-called ‘jobs bonanza’, which, I believe, is extremely misleading or even dishonest. My question – why treat those that live in Western Sydney and the Blue Mountains with such contempt, not requiring a curfew, as those that live in the Eastern and Northern Suburbs?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Amanda?

AMANDA ROSE

That is such a good question. Love it. And you’re right – these are questions that need to be answered. They really do need to be answered. Why isn’t there a curfew? What’s the justification for that? Do we get tax breaks? Do we get rate breaks as a result of that? What’s the compensation for that?

And with the jobs bonanza – I understand your pessimism when it comes to that, because I’m on the hunt to find these jobs myself. And I have found them. There are some. And what it is, that we need to look at the infrastructure boom that’s happening – and it is happening, things are, you know, moving – but we need to be prepared for it.

So I believe there’s going to be a lot of jobs, for example, in trades. So we need to get our young generation signing up to trades. You know, only 9% of youth has considered doing trades when they leave school. We need to change that, because that’s where the money will be. So it will be there, because someone like myself will be advocating hardcore to make sure that those jobs are there for our kids, for our single mums, for our families, for everyone.

But I agree with that curfew – I don’t like it. I don’t mind them having it if there was a justification or a transaction here. So, what do we get in return for that?

HAMISH MACDONALD

Stuart Ayres, what do the people of Western Sydney get back in return for there being no curfew on this new airport?

STUART AYRES

Firstly, let me say, I’ve just built my own home about 5km from the airport. It’s where I intend to live the rest of my life. So, I’m making this commitment to live in this community, with this airport, the same way I’m asking every other resident around Western Sydney to do so.

The second thing I would say is that the airport location is vastly different in Western Sydney compared to the airport in the east when it comes to where the population is. We’ve, for the last almost 30 years, protected development around the airport site so that, when an airport comes, we can take those high-noise areas and prevent residential development from taking place. That’s not to say that...

HAMISH MACDONALD

I hope there is going to be an answer here about why there’s no curfew.

STUART AYRES

Well, it’s to say that we’ve already protected the areas of high noise. So, the areas that are the highest noise locations to Sydney Airport, the exact same locations in Sydney won’t have residential property in them. And that allows us to operate an airport over 24 hours. We’ve also restricted development on a much wider area...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Are you saying no-one’s going to be impacted?

STUART AYRES

No, I’m not saying no-one’s going to be impacted.

AMANDA ROSE

Less.

STUART AYRES

Yeah. There’s going to be significant...

AMANDA ROSE

But they’re gonna get rebates.

STUART AYRES

There’s always going to be noise that’s associated with a city, whether it’s airport noise, train noise, road noise – and aircraft noise is one of those things. But we’ve created a planning regime – both Liberal and Labor governments over the last 20 years have fiercely protected the flight corridors in and out of those two runways so that people in the future aren’t impacted by aircraft noise the same way those who live close to Sydney Airport are.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Do you buy this, Amanda?

AMANDA ROSE

You know I don’t buy anything until I see it actually happen, right? ‘Cause that’s how I work. I’m very hopeful, and I’ll ask lots of questions, which I think need to be asked. But, you know, saying that – you talk about pathways – and I think this lady asked about, we don’t even know what the flight paths are.

Right, so, to guarantee that the flight paths aren’t going to affect people as much, I think that needs to be public information, so people can choose where they want to buy their homes as well, ‘cause a lot of people are buying in Western Sydney. They might choose not to buy in an area because there’s a flight path. So, I believe in transparency, I also believe in infrastructure.

So I’m pro the airport, I’m pro the jobs that come with that. But I think there’s a disconnect between what’s happening, communicating with the actual community about what’s happening, and getting their feedback and taking that on board and changing things as you’re going.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Why don’t you publish the flight paths?

STUART AYRES

Unfortunately, I don’t get an opportunity to do that. The Commonwealth government has to publish flight paths. They run the airport. But what is published, Hamish, is the areas of the highest noise. ‘Cause they are in direct alignment with the runways. So, we know where the runways are, we know that if you stretch that runway out multiple kilometres, you know where the high-noise locations are. And we’ve restricted development in those sites. In fact, there’s an area in Fairfield right now where people are...

DAI LE

Furious.

STUART AYRES

...quite disappointed that...

DAI LE

Furious. (LAUGHS)

STUART AYRES

...we’re not allowing them to actually subdivide and build more homes because they’re right at the last pointy end of that corridor.

AMANDA ROSE

Don’t worry, Dai – they’ll pay $33 million for it. (CHUCKLES)

STUART AYRES

There’s already people that we’re starting to restrict around what they can do.

DAI LE

But…

STUART AYRES

We’ll have that conversation about what that community can do. But that’s just a perfect example...

HAMISH MACDONALD

Dai’s trying to get in here.

STUART AYRES

...of us already restricting what people can do in those high-noise areas.

DAI LE

Generally speaking, in terms of infrastructure, in terms of planning, I think, this COVID period...I think that government leaders should take stock and think about planning – planning for infrastructure, planning for job growth in Western Sydney, Greater Western Sydney. For me, it’s very important. You know, that’s where jobs growth’s going to be, the population’s going to grow. Fairfield City Council for me...

STUART AYRES

Jobs just don’t happen unless you actually do something like build an airport or build a railway.

DAI LE

Absolutely. Absolutely, but then, what about... My understanding is Jordan Springs, the employment land is now being replaced by development, high-rise. So, that’s about 5,000 jobs that’s going to be lost. And I think that’s in your area. So, what are you going to do about that? So, I think it’s very important that we look at how manufacturing can...you know, the industry can grow.

Because, obviously, we need to support that. For me, West Fairfield City is the largest manufacturing employers in our area. So, what will government do to enable more industry to grow and support those industries to move back into manufacturing? Because it’s important now not to rely just on one manufacturer.

STUART AYRES

And that’s exactly why the developments around the Aerotropolis are absolutely critical.

DAI LE

Yeah.

STUART AYRES

About only 8% of land in Sydney’s CBD is zoned for non-residential usage. It’s so critical that we leverage the investment in that airport to create land that brings advanced manufacturing, that brings technology jobs, that brings manufacturing that’s been the heartbeat of places like Ingleburn and Fairfield...

DAI LE

Smithfield.

STUART AYRES

...Wetherill Park, Smithfield, in and around those locations.

AMANDA ROSE

The Aerotropolis, I think, is one of the best things that’s ever happened. You know, I’ve looked into it, and I think it’s fantastic. But that’s never been the issue for me, or even for the residents. It’s, like, we need to know how we can make the most of this. Where are the jobs? You know, and they’re there, or they’re coming, as well as free education as well, but the communication of that to the residents and to the people, that’s lacking.

HAMISH MACDONALD

OK. Let’s take our next question. It’s from Benjamin Cremen.

BENJAMIN CREMEN

Hi, panel. Before the question, I just want to say sorry for the loss of your mum. And you’re doing an excellent, excellent job.

AMANI HAYDAR

Thank you.

BENJAMIN CREMEN

Men who abuse should be prosecuted and shamed. And you’re doing a fantastic job.

The support services that have ramped up in this pandemic – why was it smart business to increase welfare payments rather than allow people whose hours went through the roof to have that extra overtime tax-free? Then they can spend that in failed businesses, extra available spending cash in their pocket.

HAMISH MACDONALD

So, you’re referring to JobKeeper, JobSeeker?

BENJAMIN CREMEN

No, no, no. Job...

DAI LE

Seeker.

BENJAMIN CREMEN

Yeah. Welfare payments. Not the ones for employers to keep jobs. Just, why was it smarter business to increase a welfare payment rather than decrease the tax people pay with extra income earned over this period?

DAI LE

Federal.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Dai Le.

DAI LE

Oh, I was going to say that is a federal government issue! Look, I think that for me, in South-West Sydney, we need more investment in enterprise to encourage people to come up with enterprise ideas, and entrepreneurship is very important. I think that JobSeeker, my understanding was to help those that were currently on, I think, unemployment, to encourage them to go and seek a, you know, job.

Now, I don’t know why the federal government made the decision for – because it was hoping to kick-start the economy? But from my perspective, a wiser spending would have been looking at the small businesses in our community, because they’re, at the end of the day, 80%, they’re the backbone of our society. And I believe that a lot of businesses, for instance, a local business who said to me, you know, “Why couldn’t we raise the threshold for GST collection, for instance?”

Currently it’s at $75,000. So that small businesses actually don’t have to pay to increase the threshold until much higher. So, those little minute details, the government tools, the government policy should look at how to make it easier for small businesses to run in this, you know, most difficult, challenging time that we face.

HAMISH MACDONALD

I just want to bring in Georgia Meredith. I think you’re in the audience. You are on JobSeeker, I think?

AMANDA ROSE

Oh, right.

GEORGIA MEREDITH

I’ve been out of work since July, and I’m currently on JobSeeker. So, when the Coronavirus Supplement was $550, that was livable. Now it’s at $250, and I struggle. And when it’s reduced again, I will be on $408 a week, which is below the poverty line. I have two bachelor degrees, and I am admitted as a solicitor in New South Wales. I have applied for over 40 jobs. One job had over 800 applicants.

DAI LE

Do you think, then, if a government came up with an initiative to actually help you create a business opportunity, for instance, would that actually also help you? Like, from my perspective, giving people like you some kind of support to get you motivated or get you support to create your own business, I think that’s the way of the future. You know, there’s an opportunity to go out and set up yourself. I think that’s where government should actually provide that kind of support.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Amanda?

AMANDA ROSE

Oh, look, I love the idea of that. But I run Small Business Women Australia as well, and starting a small business is hell, right? So, during COVID, it’s probably not the best idea. I would like to say – can you please contact me? I know a lot of lawyers, so I’d love to connect you to them. And even just have a conversation about maybe interview skills or whatever it is, or a job, whatever. But when it comes to the JobSeeker, JobSeeker was there as, like, a net to catch people, right?

So people were being laid off in droves, and they had bills to pay and they panicked. I think the issue is that now they need to work out who really needs JobSeeker and who really doesn’t. For example, there are a lot of youth that are living at home that I know, for a fact, through my small business community, have quit their job to go on JobSeeker, when there’s a single mum over here panicking because they’re going to reduce JobSeeker and she needs the money.

So there needs to be, you know, scaled JobSeeker, or just say, “Right, here’s an opportunity to go into trades.” We have such a shortage with trades. There are 800 jobs out there for plumbers, electricians, carpenters, just in Western Sydney. And small business has just been incentivised to take on trades, so looking at alternatives.

But I understand what you’re saying, but the reason why it was there was just a net, really to save people’s livelihoods. But now it needs to be looked at to say, “Actually, there are jobs available, how can we...?” And I know the government’s funding some of this to actually get people job-ready for a different type of career, look at a different option. But JobSeeker needs to still remain at a rate that some people actually need to survive. We can’t just blanket have the same approach for everyone.

HAMISH MACDONALD

Alright. Well, that is all we’ve got time for tonight. Would you please thank our panel: Amani Haydar, Stuart Ayres, Dai Le, Richard Marles and Amanda Rose. Please put your hands together. You guys have been a fantastic audience tonight, so thanks so much for coming in and sharing your stories and your questions.

Next week, it’ll be our final Q+A of the year, and we’re asking how 2020 has changed all of us. How’s it changed you? We’d love you to share your story as well, so head to our website now and upload a short video, help us reflect on this unforgettable year. A huge line-up next week, including Jimmy Barnes, who’ll take us out with a live performance. I promise, do not miss it. Goodnight.